The main argument going on in this thread was whether your "arrow hand" (the one nocking and releasing arrows, rather than the one holding the bow) counted as a "free hand" while you're not firing.Considering SKR said he'd allow a Duelist to make unarmed strikes with her free hand and retain the ability to use Precise Strike/other class abilities, I don't see the issue with your arrow hand being considered free. (Esp past level 9 for ZA)
I think that's apple to oranges. A rapier is a one handed weapon a bow is listed as a two handed weapon, not to mention the opposite was upheld in regards to the Magus.
I don't know, I think you open up a huge can of worms if you allow that.
I'd say that your arrow hand is free whenever your not firing your bow. That is the way I've always seen it done, its the reason why archers + Bucklers = Awesome.
Your hand is free in the sense of being able to use it for actions that dont require you to hold anything of significant weight/wield a weapon. You can totally play a cleric with a long bow and cast your DF/S spells just fine but the second you try to pick up that dagger your a no go.
So Crane wing should be fine with a bow.
Bucklers specifically do not work with archers or two-handed weapons unless you houserule them.
Magus specifically does not matter on the hand-switching because of how the Spell Combat ability is written, there's really no ambiguity there.
Bows (and other two handed weapons) do NOT make good bonded objects because you need to WIELD them when casting, and you can't wield them in one hand.
However, you can easily drop a hand off an item (OR get a glove of storing and make the item disappear after your attacks) as a free action and have a hand free for Crane Style. There's really nothing to say you can't do this.
Bucklers specifically do not work with archers or two-handed weapons unless you houserule them.
Magus specifically does not matter on the hand-switching because of how the Spell Combat ability is written, there's really no ambiguity there.
Bows (and other two handed weapons) do NOT make good bonded objects because you need to WIELD them when casting, and you can't wield them in one hand.
However, you can easily drop a hand off an item (OR get a glove of storing and make the item disappear after your attacks) as a free action and have a hand free for Crane Style. There's really nothing to say you can't do this.
Except how crane style requires a free hand and a bow requires two hands to use. The murky part comes in if you can both be using a weapon that requires two hands and end up with a hand free.
Well since you're not using it after you do your full round attack option, you can hold it in one hand. It's pretty simple.
So say you have quick draw. You have a shield in one hand and the other starts your turn free. You draw a dagger as a free action, fight defensively, and throw it. Do you get Crane Style? Sure. With a bow, you use both your hands to shoot 5 arrows, then just hold it in one hand when you're done. You get Crane Style that way too. As long as at the end of your turn you have a hand free, you should be good with Crane Style. You don't have to like it, but to argue that it's against RAW is wrong.
Just look at the difference of wording between Crane Strike and the rules for Bucklers. It should be pretty clear when you compare the two, since one specifically covers the issue and the other does not. Same with the Magus Spell Combat ability. Since that kind of specific wording is absent in Crane Style, you should be perfectly within the rules to take your hand off a two handed weapon and have a hand free to use the feat.
Bucklers specifically do not work with archers or two-handed weapons unless you houserule them.
LOL, what?!!!
Buckler: This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm. You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it. You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a –1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you lose the buckler's AC bonus until your next turn. You can cast a spell with somatic components using your shield arm, but you lose the buckler's AC bonus until your next turn. You can't make a shield bash with a buckler.
You can use a buckler with a bow just fine, there's no negatives to do so at all.
Except how crane style requires a free hand and a bow requires two hands to use. The murky part comes in if you can both be using a weapon that requires two hands and end up with a hand free.Bucklers specifically do not work with archers or two-handed weapons unless you houserule them.
Magus specifically does not matter on the hand-switching because of how the Spell Combat ability is written, there's really no ambiguity there.
Bows (and other two handed weapons) do NOT make good bonded objects because you need to WIELD them when casting, and you can't wield them in one hand.
However, you can easily drop a hand off an item (OR get a glove of storing and make the item disappear after your attacks) as a free action and have a hand free for Crane Style. There's really nothing to say you can't do this.
I agree with you Davick. Not because of rules or anything like that. But because each ENTIRE round for EVERY creature = 6 seconds. Someone take a bow, Aim with any effectiveness, then FIRE at an enemy. After you fire go into a crane stance (google it). Oh wait, 3 enemies were able to attack you before your finger left the string?
All combat takes place in the 6 second window. Firing a bow would at least take 2 seconds, 3 or 4 with a well aimed or far shot, or shot into combat with any degree of accuracy. If you have enemies charging you and you still attack with the bow, it's likely REALISTICALLY your hand would NOT be free for at least some of the attacks.
Now if you were say wielding ONE sword in that 6 second window, your free hand would be ready at a MOMENTS notice to crane-block an attack.
EDIT: By ONE sword, I mean one, one-HANDED sword.
I agree with you Davick. Not because of rules or anything like that. But because each ENTIRE round for EVERY creature = 6 seconds. Someone take a bow, Aim with any effectiveness, then FIRE at an enemy. After you fire go into a crane stance (google it). Oh wait, 3 enemies were able to attack you before your finger left the string?
All combat takes place in the 6 second window. Firing a bow would at least take 2 seconds, 3 or 4 with a well aimed or far shot, or shot into combat with any degree of accuracy. If you have enemies charging you and you still attack with the bow, it's likely REALISTICALLY your hand would NOT be free for at least some of the attacks.
Now if you were say wielding ONE sword in that 6 second window, your free hand would be ready at a MOMENTS notice to crane-block an attack.
EDIT: By ONE sword, I mean one, one-HANDED sword.
Please, not that argument. Pathfinder uses a turn-based system to keep the game manageable and simulates overlapping time by various rules about illegal actions and off-turn responses. Trying to rewrite Pathfinder rules to directly incorporate overlapping time would create a nightmare of contradictory rules. What if an opponent took an attack of opportunity while the bowman shoot his bow? Would time still overlap during the opponent's turn?
Consider the Spell Combat rules for magus. They say, "To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components), while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand." Some people have argued that the magus could cast the spell in Spell Combat with one hand free, shift his grip to grab a two-handed weapon, and make the attack in Spell Combat with that weapon. The rest of us claim that "one hand free" refers to the entire duration of the Spell Combat, not just during the casting a spell part, and therefore shifting the grip would be an illegal action. The image of Spell Combat is that one hand is casting a spell and the other hand is wielding the weapon simultaneously; nevertheless, the rules enforce that image not by an overlapping time rule but by a one hand free rule.
Could you use such a rule to prevent shifting the grip for Crane Wing? Let's check the wording.
Crane Wing (Combat)
You move with the speed and finesse of an avian hunter, your sweeping blocks and graceful motions allowing you to deflect melee attacks with ease.
Prerequisites: Crane Style, Dodge, Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +5 or monk level 5th.
Benefit: Once per round while using Crane Style, when you have at least one hand free and are either fighting defensively or using the total defense action, you can deflect one melee weapon attack that would normally hit you. You expend no action to deflect the attack, but you must be aware of it and not flat-footed. An attack so deflected deals no damage to you.
I read having one hand free as an independent requirement from fighting defensively, and thus, has nothing to do with the duration of fighting defensively. However, a plausible interpretation would be the one hand free is part of the requirement to fight defensively or use the total defense action. Which would mean that the hand must be free during that entire time period. Fighting defensively starts at the beginning of a standard action or full-round action and continues until the start of your next turn. Same for full defense. Go ahead, require a hand be free during that entire time, which prevents using Crane Wing while fighting defensively with a bow.
Just don't shoehorn overlapping time into Pathfinder rules.
Is this really breaking the game though?? I can't see this really ruining the game for anyone's enjoyment, though being a back line fighter it does make me really hard to kill, though.
Changing Crane Wing doesn't really affect anything other than Crane Wing. Changing the action required to move your hands around could break most ranged attackers.
If you require a move action to take a hand off a weapon, you can never make multiple ranged attacks with a bow or crossbow, regardless of feats. You can never reload a firearm more than once per round. Martial casters like paladins and clerics get totally hosed.
So officially, this is not covered in the rules??
Correct. The rulebook does not state what action it takes to remove one hand from an object.
It does state that it's a free action to drop an object, which includes one or two hands. It does have rules that completely stop functioning if the action is anything more restrictive than a free action. The creative director has posted stating that's how it works. But the rules don't explicitly state it.
The murky part comes in if you can both be using a weapon that requires two hands and end up with a hand free.
There's nothing murky about it. The rules are clear that you can fight defensively with a weapon, drop the weapon, and have hands free.
The only quibbling left is if you can do the same thing but only drop one hand instead of the entire weapon.
Some of the people in this thread would look really funny in an archery tournament, as the second they released their last arrow they would apparently clench both fists around the shaft of their bow.
And I think some of the people in this thread would be shocked if they were ever in a fight and the people they were fighting didn't wait their turn to throw a punch.