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Best archer class


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Qadira

myrmidarch magus. being human to get all the feats faster.
since the flurry of blows cant be combined with rapid shot or many shot but a myrmidarchs spell strike works with both its awesome
feats like this
human- point blank shot
1-precise shot
3-rapid shot
5-weapon focus
7-weapon specialization
9-many shot
11-cluster shot

arcanas
3-arcane accuracy
9-familiar (used to get a raven and have him use wands since both your hands are full of bow.)
stats i know they are a bit min maxed but its 20 points and were looking at trying to make a -4 work sometimes for shots.
STR: 8 DEX: 16 CON: 14 INT: 18 WIS: 9 CHA: 8 put the human +2 into int.

so the whole point to this build is u fire your bow backed by your spells for additional damage much like a normal magus works. the thing that really comes into play here is around mid levels you can start using more tools.
so you can imbue your weapon to make up for the lacking bab. thank you arcane pool. you can fire one spell boosted arrow and a normal arrow early on the -2 to attacks will be the same every other archer your elvel will be dealing with when they use rapid shots.
then you add rapid shot to the mix so now you aer looking at 3 shots a round all at -4 if you want to get them all going. the first arrow is boosted with magic the other two are normal arrows fired from your arcane pool enhanced bow. on rounds that you feel the need to use all 3 shots you can offset the negative by using one arcane point to give an insight bonus to your attack roll equal to your int.
the next two feats are just to further compensate for your lacking bab and then the +2 damage will really shine since you are a chain gun now.
bab hits 6 at 8 netting you an additional attack. by level 12 you are firing 5 arrows (and if you have a speed bow 6 arrows)
stat increase go into dex*2 and wis*1
assumed gear for level 12 +4 items of dex and int. and a +4 longbow
your attack bonus would be +24/24/24/24/19(9bab+1 feat+6 dex+4 weapon enhancement+1 magus enhancement+6 int arcana-2 spell strike-2rapid shot+1 haste)also 3 more bonuses to tack onto your shots from magus. lets use those +3 more enhancements to do 1d6 of a chosen elemental, keen, and that elementals burst as well. so now we have our shots as shown have your familiar use wands to cast abundant ammunition and gravity bow
spell strike +24=2d6 bow damage+1d6 elemental+5 enhancement+4d6 scorching ray +2 for feat
many shot+24=2*(2d6 bow damage+1d6 elemental+5 enhancement+4d6 scorching ray+2 for feat)
rapid shot +24=2d6 bow damage+1d6 elemental+5 enhancement+2 feat
primary shot +24=2d6 bow damage+1d6 elemental+5 enhancement+2 feat
secondary shot +19=2d6 bow damage+1d6 elemental+5 enhancement+2 feat

for an amazing total of
12d6 weapon damage
6d6 elemental from enhancement
12d6 from spell (scorching ray)
and 30 from enhancement.
lastly 12 from weapon specialization.
all at the cost of 1 arcane pool point for the +int to hit for one round then the 1 arcane point to enhance his bow that lasts for 1 minute.

furthermore all of this damage when applied to one target you only pay for dr once thanks to clustered shots. if you dont care about precise shot you can just take deadly aim instead for another -3 to attack and +6 to damage per arrow and 36 more damage for a full round.

well i just had to toss the magus's hat in the ring. besides bows i also have a full list of spells. and now with a familiar using wands you get extra actions per round.


I just want to note that you cannot use spell combat while full attacking with a bow, which puts a serious cramp in the Myrmidarch magus plan. I think the intention MAY have been to allow it, but the Myrmidarch archetype doesn't alter Spell Combat, which would make you unable to full attack with a bow while casting a spell in the same round. You might be able to do it with thrown weapons, but it doesn't work with bows.

A bow is a two handed weapon, and spell combat specifies that you must have one hand free for that full round action. It also specifies melee weapons.

You could probably cast a spell, hold the charge, and then full attack the next round to deliver multiple rays, but that loses some of the luster.

Don't mean to be a wet blanket, just bringing up the fact you'd have to be using some real house rules and such to do a full attack with spell combat while using a bow.


I have been toying with ranger, fighter, and zen archer (monk) builds for this and ultimately Ive decided on fighter. Partly due to the +5 accuracy (over the life of the fighter) when compared to a monk. However it is an extremely hard decision for me as the monk has ALOT to offer.

As far as feats go the zen archer and fighter are pretty much neck and neck in quantity. The monk gets a few feats earlier, the fighter gets a few feats earlier.

The fighter results in 1 extra HP per level on average. The zen archer of course is a defensive king with saving throws and AC (eventually) being superior to the fighter. The zen archer also has alot of nifty abilities.

Ultimately, its such a tossup between the two that for me it came down to accuracy and damage. The fighter has more damage per arrow (even when counting the monk's ki arrows ability) and more arrows that are accurate.

At level 20 just counting BAB/FoB bonuses (with rapid shot for fighter), feats(+1monk, +2fighter), and weapon training(+4)
Fighter: 24(x2)/24/19/14/9
Monk: 19/19/19(ki)/14/14/9/9/4

Thus the fighter has 4 arrows at 19 or better to the monks 3. The monk has one extra attack at 14, 1 extra at 9, and 1 extra at 4. Thus I chose fighter over monk in this case.

Damage: Fighter has Gr. Weapon Spec and Weapon training4. Monk has the ability to increase damage to 2d10 if not increasing attacks by +1. (Note: not including abilities both have access to).
Fighter has 1d8+6 for an average of 10.5.
Monk has 2d10+0 for an average of 11. Half point to the monk per arrow but number of arrows dropped by 1.

Thus, while the monk is more defensive they lose out on accuracy and damage. However the flavor is just awesome. - Gauss


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

This isn't accurate. The monk gets Weapon Specialization at a minimum (so at least +2 to the damage of every arrow after level 6.

Both archers likely have similarly powered bows at level 20 - assuming fairly high STR and magical enhancements to the bow. But beyond those after level 17 the Zen Archer gets a lot of tricks the Fighter can't match (adding Stunning Fist and other Ki Focus abilities to arrows)

Not to mention that while the Fighter (if an Archer archetype) gets to do some combat maneuvers with his bow (pretty nifty) the Zen Archer after level 11 can spend ki points to ignore up to total cover (i.e. shooting arrows around corners) which is definitely nice.

A bit more practically the monk at level 20 has a wide range of options that the fighter doesn't have (though might get some magical items to duplicate some of them - but the monk can use most such tricks as well) - i.e. insanely fast movement, teleportation, high jumps/falls without damage, fantastic saves etc.

Personally I think the monk is the more fun class to play - not least because after the initial levels the monk almost runs out of feats to get - so you can either think about multiclasses (though that forgoes some future damage and higher level monk tricks) or you can use feats to gain abilities that offer you other options - styles like Monkey or Snake that offer great defences for example.

The fighter does also get a lot of feats but quite a few of them for an archer are needed for feats that the Zen Archer gets for free (Point Blank Master in particular is an amazingly powerful feat to get at level 3 - no attacks of opportunity for range combat means you can get right in the middle of things if you want - and monks w/improved unarmed strike threaten even with their hands full so you are a ranged attacker who helps flank for your allies - very very nice.


Rycaut, if you will check what I stated, I said that I was not including abilities that both have access to. Thus, I did not include weapon spec (only gr weapon spec for the fighter), I did not include point blank attack, I did not include magic, ability scores etc etc. I DID include the fighter's weapon training. All of those are equal (although in fairness, the Monk's MAD would most likely put the fighter at an advantage for strength by +1 but I decided to be generous). Second, I never said archer archetype as that archetype loses out on too much fighter AC via no armor training.

Additionally, I did list that the monk has all those special abilities and the defensive saves. I also stated the monk had better flavor (same basic concept as your statement regarding 'more fun class to play'.

The fighter ALSO gets no attacks of opportunity at level 4. If you want a truly detailed comparison I can do it. But overall the monk and fighter wind up with about the same feats. The fighter ALSO threatens with the bow thus helps flank.

A comparison:

Human Fighter (level in parenthesis): (1) Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot; (2) Dodge; (3) Weapon Focus; (4) Weapon Specialization, replace dodge with Point Blank Master; (5) Deadly Aim; (6) Manyshot; (7) Clustered Shots; (8) Snap Shot; (9) Improved Critical; (10) Gr. Weapon Focus; (11) Imp. Precise Shot; (12) Gr. Weapon Spec.; (13) Improved Snap Shot; (14-20) undecided

Human Monk (level in parenthesis): (1) Dodge, Toughness (optional), Imp. Unarmed Strike, Perfect Strike, Point Blank Shot; (2) Precise Shot, Weapon Focus; (3) Deadly Aim, Point Blank Master; (5) undecided; (6) Improved Precise Shot, Weapon Spec.; (7) undecided; (9) Clustered Shots, Reflexive Shot (similar to snap shot); (10) Imp. Critical; (11, 13, 14, 15, 17, 18, 19) undecided

Tally
Fighter: 22
Monk: 23
Fighter gets Imp Snap Shot which allows him to threaten at 10feet.
Monk gets Deadly Aim earlier in this build but doesnt have to. The real wow is the monk gets Improved Precise Shot at 6.

Fighter: str22 (16+6enh), Dex29 (16+2race+5lvl+6enh), Con14, Int10, Wis12, Cha8
Monk: str22 (16+6enh), dex20 (14+6enh), con12, int10, wis29 (16+2race+5lvl+6enh), cha8

The fighter averages 1 more hp per level (1d10+2 vs 1d8+2 with toughness).
Fighter AC42 (Mithril Plate+5, Dex+7 max, +5 natural Armor, +5 Deflection, +1 insight)
Monk AC49 (Bracers+8, Dex+5, Wisdom+9, +5natural, +5deflection, +5monk, +1 insight, +1dodge)

Attack:
Fighter: 35(x2)/35/30/25/20 = 20+4(W.Training)+2(W.Focus)+9(dex)+5(bow)-2(Rapid)+2(bracers of archery)+1(P.B.Shot)-6(Deadly Aim)
Monk: 28(perfect strike)/28/28(ki)/23/23/18/18/13 = 18+1(W.focus)+9(wis)+5(bow)+0(bracers of archery slot taken by armor)+1(P.B.Shot)-6(Deadly Aim)

Note: If you had the bracers of archery stacked with bracers of AC add +2 to hit (price: 37500gp).

Damage:
Fighter: 37.5avg = 1d8+6(str)+4(W.Spec)+4(W.Training)+5(bow)+1(bracers)+1(P.B.Shot)+12(Deadly Aim)
Monk: 30.5avg 1d8+6(str)+2(W.Spec)+5(bow)+0(bracers)+1(P.B.Shot)+12(Deadly Aim)
Note: If you had the bracers of archery stacked add +1 to damage. If using Ki Arrows instead of Ki attck then reduce # of attacks by one and increase damage TO 37avg.

While I have left many feats to be decided and this is not necessarily the most optimized build (alot of this was done from memory) I think that my points are valid. Monk has ALOT to offer, but the fighter still wins on accuracy and damage. Note: Perfect strike effectively ups the monks first attack bonus but I do not know how to calculate that into the bonus.

One other note: I did not include inherent bonuses and while on attack and damage they would keep parity the inherent bonuses would put the monk in even better shape with AC.


It appears you didn't include the monks enhanced damage, possibly to include enlarge and monks robes. In this case enlarging does stack because you're drawing your damage from your unarmed strike damage instead of via a large arrow. You can boost your bow damage to as high as 4d8 per arrow as soon as level 16 and as high as 3d8 at level 12. Couple that with the fact the Monk had his option of taking improved critical at 10th and you're going to begin seeing some excellent damage numbers for as many as 20 or 25 rounds a day, possibly more (depending on race, feats and magic items).

EDIT: Also you didn't calculate the monk with a Guided weapon, which he could capitalize on for damage purposes.

So we can see with those adjustments the monk would add an addition 3 average damage just from Guided (6 str to 9 wis) and then again gain another 13.5 average damage from the enlarged monk damage state. I normally wouldn't focus on a uses/day ability but with 20+ rounds at your disposal daily you can just about cover all the combat you'll be seeing that matters and we could certainly say that if the monk saved these just for moderately difficult foes he'd have plenty to go around.

Final result: Monk damage is up around 47avg or 42.5 wiuthout factoring in enlarge, and these numbers go up significantly more on the <10% of strikes which eventually crit, but again a statistic which pushes the monk a little further ahead.

The problem with the monk is to hit, but it's effectively balancing out his higher damage.

I also note you didn't give the fighter the weapon training gloves, which boost to hit and damage by +2, but only if you didn't give up weapon training for the archer templpate.


JJJ wrote:
Wiggz wrote:
JJJ wrote:
Why don't we throw the Luring Cavalier in the mix?

Because nobody likes Cavaliers. Don't you remember Eric?

:P

What if just one person liked Eric? Could we include the cavalier?

I liked Eric - can we include the luring cavalier now? Possibly musketeer+luring cavalier?


Lastoth...your points make no sense.

Enlarge does not help bow damage because paizo fails at basic logic forever. Gravity bow does, but fighter can get a wand of it to use just as easily/difficultly as ZAM can.
Wasting a ki point for higher damage is silly; the extra attack is basically always better.
Monk can take Imp. Crit at 10. Fighter can take it at 8...

And I'm sure the archer = no gloves of dueling thing is RAW, but I refuse to believe that's how it's played by ANYONE outside of PF Society. Because the gloves are so goo, that losing access to them effectively makes the Archer Fighter a worse archer than vanilla fighter.

Fighter has better to hit and damage. ZAM counters with more dakka. They're pretty balanced. Out of combat...monk has a whopping +2 skill points and high speed and teleporting. Won't help that much out of combat. In combat, Fighter has more interesting options, since he can use trip and disarm at range while full attacking and can do some battlefield control w/ Improved Snap Shot and Pin Down.


StreamOfTheSky wrote:

Lastoth...your points make no sense.

Enlarge does not help bow damage because paizo fails at basic logic forever. Gravity bow does, but fighter can get a wand of it to use just as easily/difficultly as ZAM can.
Wasting a ki point for higher damage is silly; the extra attack is basically always better.
Monk can take Imp. Crit at 10. Fighter can take it at 8...

And I'm sure the archer = no gloves of dueling thing is RAW, but I refuse to believe that's how it's played by ANYONE outside of PF Society. Because the gloves are so goo, that losing access to them effectively makes the Archer Fighter a worse archer than vanilla fighter.

Fighter has better to hit and damage. ZAM counters with more dakka. They're pretty balanced. Out of combat...monk has a whopping +2 skill points and high speed and teleporting. Won't help that much out of combat. In combat, Fighter has more interesting options, since he can use trip and disarm at range while full attacking and can do some battlefield control w/ Improved Snap Shot and Pin Down.

#1 I strongly disagree, and I brought math to an opinion fight.

BEHOLD MY SHODDY SPREADSHEET

I threw together a quick spreadsheet on the effects of various levels of damage increase vs the extra attack and factored in chance to hit (just in case a higher AC mattered) and because you get that damage to all your attacks you are basically better off switching to damage once you hit 2d6, but only very slightly. As levels rise you clearly produce more damage with the increased dice.

I'm sure I got a few things wrong, but you get the gist, as dice go up damage per round goes up faster than with extra attacks, even including miss chances, which are really important. At no level is 2d6 less effective than a hasted round, so obviously we're better off getting boots with haste on them and pumping damage.

#2 The damage ability says you draw your unarmed strike damage. When I am large my unarmed strike damage goes up. This is no longer calculated as a size bonus imo since it's just coming in as "unarmed strike damage". Again, IMO.

Edit: I tried to share the spreadhseet in a way you can see my calculations, but I can't see them. If you save it to your machine can you see the equations? I'd like to know if my work was even remotely close to correct.

Edit #2: I uploaded the sheet from excel directly and fixed the link, it appears to now show the equations.


I'm just going to take your calculations as correct at face value for now.

You are correct, enlarge + Ki arrows would buff damage. But why not just use Gravity Bow (which will just overlap with Ki arrows)? Then you're at 2d6 base damage without suffering -1 to hit and -2 AC and needing to spend a ki point each round just to maintain the advantage. Since enlarge and gravity bow take the same combat action to use and do not stack with each other for your arrow damage and since ki arrows and extra attack are both costing 1 ki point and a swift action, the fairest comparison should be between Gravity Bow + ki on extra attacks vs. Enlarge + Ki Arrows.

And I don't see how the latter is ever winning that comparison. Maybe at very high levels.

Haste will stack with ki point on extra attack, if that was a factor in your calculations.

Can you explain what the P - U columns are, exactly? Just looking at the first few rows, it seems to be average damage per shot. Taking average damage of the damage die and multiplying by your % chance to hit. If so, it looks like the extra attack does quite well, when you consider you're adding an extra number of that value to the total, compared w/ the 2d6 column. Also, if you're not accounting for damage bonuses from str, enhancement, specialization, etc... all of those would skew the results in favor of the extra attack, as it benefits from them, the ki arrows' increased base damage does not.

EDIT: Ok, can see equations now. So you are facotring in the added attack already. Interesting. Still, you seem to just be evaluating base weapon damage, which is a mistake. As added damage increases, the extra attack will overtake the 2d6 for better damage per round, regardless of target's AC vs. your attack bonus.


I thought that damage would pretty much not change things but I'd be happy to include it and it should be fairly easy, perhaps a flat number which can be adjusted so we can throw in something like 20?

Qadira

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

The myrmidarch is a skilled specialist, using magic to supplement and augment his martial mastery. Less inclined to mix the two than a typical magus, the myrmidarch seeks supremacy with blade, bow, and armor.
right out of the myrmidarch class explanation. the class is meant to be used to send spells through a bow.
it doesn't require serious house rules. you are confusing spell combat and spell strike. spell strike says i need a free hand to cast the spell. so i carry my bow in one hand. then as a free action i take my bow in both hands and execute the spell strike. it would look like this

the magus stands at the edge of the battlefield surveying his target bow in one hand as his other hand makes a gesture with a flick he brings the bow in front of him drawing an arrow with his now charged hand knocking it in to place it crackles with power as he releases it (spell strike) then follow on with the rest of my attacks.
all i have used is the free action to charge the spell, a free action to hold the bow with both hands, a free action to draw the arrow. then back to normal. this is the intended operation of the myrmidarch from its explanation it is apparent he is intended to use a bow with spell strike.
also one more clarification to this is that some people have claimed that you can only use ranged touch spells through the bow. the explanation says that he can only use touch ranged spells. not ranged touch spells. this is obviously stating that you can only use spells with a range of touch. not that al spells put through the bow must have range of "ranged touch".
i have searched for an official faq or errata and as of yet there has nto been official clarification but honestly if its apparent what the class was intended to do why argue it does something else.


Fixed, and you are correct, your observation has cut my argument to the quick. :-)


Lastoth wrote:
I thought that damage would pretty much not change things but I'd be happy to include it and it should be fairly easy, perhaps a flat number which can be adjusted so we can throw in something like 20?

Damage bonus is a tricky thing to think about. Deadly Aim, if considered, also muddies things.

You know at least to add a +2 to every attack's damage at 6th level for sure (specialization). By level 2 or 3, should probably be seeing at least a +2 bonus from a str bow, though not at 1st level. By level 3 or 4, it should have a +1 enhancement to add to damage. Seems like good minimums for the early levels, hard to pin down exact numbers.

What do you think of my point about comparing gravity bow + extra attack vs. enlarge + ki arrows, though? Former requires UMD on a wand while latter you can just use potions, granted.


StreamOfTheSky wrote:
Lastoth wrote:
I thought that damage would pretty much not change things but I'd be happy to include it and it should be fairly easy, perhaps a flat number which can be adjusted so we can throw in something like 20?

Damage bonus is a tricky thing to think about. Deadly Aim, if considered, also muddies things.

You know at least to add a +2 to every attack's damage at 6th level for sure (specialization). By level 2 or 3, should probably be seeing at least a +2 bonus from a str bow, though not at 1st level. By level 3 or 4, it should have a +1 enhancement to add to damage. Seems like good minimums for the early levels, hard to pin down exact numbers.

What do you think of my point about comparing gravity bow + extra attack vs. enlarge + ki arrows, though? Former requires UMD on a wand while latter you can just use potions, granted.

Sorry, I just added the 4d8 section just in case people can reach that via the logic I described and at that point (once you are of level to do it, which I think is 12) you're better off doing that unless you can figure more damage bonuses than 20, then just check that number on the sheet.

As to your point the issue has always been time. I can't assume enlarged or gravity bow really because we would need to factor in how much damage is lost in the action you use it on. if it costs you a single shot because you had to move anyway obviously you only need to make up for very little damage. If you buff before combat, so much the better, but certainly it's never worth blowing a round in combat since it's literally only adding 2.5 damage per hit, so you'd need to add up a whole TON of hits to make up for an entire lost full attack action.

EDIT: I added a column to see gravity bow and the extra attack for you.

EDIT: I was under the impression haste did NOT stack with the ki point attack, is this wrong?

Qadira

another thing to consider is that no where does it say ranged spell strike functions like spellstrike. it doesn't modify spellstrike even. it replaces spell recall a myrmidarch magus can channel spells through his ranged weapon or his melee one. the only limitation on ranged spellstrike is that it must be used through a ranged weapon. hell with this i could see it being dealt through any weapon with a range increment.


Lastoth wrote:
EDIT: I was under the impression haste did NOT stack with the ki point attack, is this wrong?

The stuff that doesn't stack with haste and similar effects all say so in their descriptions. Things like Divine Power. Extra attack via ki stacks, it has no such restriction and is not a haste effect.


Well part of the reason I was looking into this in such detail is trying to determine the break point to possibly move to another class at 9th level, since monk 9-12 don't add much and my campaign ends at 12. I'm thinking 1 level of the wisdom based sorcerer and then push the rest in ranger, fighter or arcane archer.


Lastoth: I DID include the monks enhanced damage...note the Ki Arrows statement that increases the average damage from 30.5 to 37.

Regarding guided bow, this is a 3.5 paizo enhancement thus I dont include it. However, if you DID include it it would only raise the average damage by 3 points. That enhancement bonus equals the enhancement bonus from fire/frost/etc which is 3.5 points of damage (admitedly typed).

Regarding Enlarge, as others have stated the fighter could benefit from gravity bow and enlarge does not increase arrow damage. However, assuming that you gravity bow both parties the fighter's average increases by 2.5per arrow while the monk's increases by 7 IF using ki arrows otherwise the increase is the same. However, I personally believe that +1 attack is better than ki arrow.

Regarding weapon training gloves, I do not know of this item. What is the source?

Ultimately, you are either failing to include things I have already shown OR you are adding things to only one side without considering the other side.

Ki Arrows: included already AND reduces the number of attacks by 1
Guided Bow: balanced by energy enhancement
Enlarge/Gravity Bow, equal OR 7pt increase to the monk per arrow. But the Fighter's higher ACCURATE arrow count still wins imo but I dont have the stats to show this atm. Maybe later.

Totals:
Fighter with gravity bow is now up to 40pts per arrow with 4 arrows as accurate or more accurate than the monk (160pts average for best 4 arrows).
Monk with gravity bow is up to 33avg (34 with bracers of archery) (102pts average for 3 best arrows).
Monk with gravity bow and ki arrows is up to 48.5 (49.5 with bracers of archery) but is -1 on accurate arrows (99pts average for the best two arrows).

I did not include the wisdom damage booster since it is balanced by other +1 abilities.

Again, it comes down to style. More accuracy and overall damage with top tier arrows vs better AC and fluff.
- Gauss

Qadira

and magus is still rocking
2d6 bow damage+1d6 elemental+5 enhancement+4d6 scorching ray+2 for feat+2 for weapon training.
with 3 arrows at avg 32 damage.
2d6 bow damage+1d6 elemental+5 enhancement+2 for feat+ 2weapon training for 3 more arrows average 18 damage
for a round total of 156. lowest attack is at a +21 the other 4 attacks (5 arrows) are at +26
also magus can still fly, buff his friends, debuff his enemies, channel incredible damage through a melee weapon, use magic device, make skills checkcs (high int=good points), wear medium armor at 7, and lets not forget my familiar is also mad spamming wands while im firing arrows off every round.
so a few questions and answers
utility? yes
Damage? yes
more useful than the average cannon? DEFINETLY.

Qadira

my last post reminded me that i have weapon training 2 by now as a myrmidarch magus so add +2 att and damage to each of my arrows and lets take swords as my second weapon group so i can be more competent in case people close rank on me while hasted and flying.


Yes, ranged spellstrike works. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the fact that without spell combat working (which it doesn't) you can't cast AND full attack in the same round. You could use spellstrike to cast and take AN attack, since casting is a standard action. If you quicken something like scorching ray, then take a full attack, you may be able to do it, but that's at much higher levels.

And your familiar is dead if he's actively spamming wands in combat :p. If your DM lets that fly without killing him off, more power to ya.


For all of my posts regarding archers Fighter does NOT mean Fighter with archer archtype (I do not like the AC loss). Monk however is to mean Zen Archer (so I dont have to type that out each time).

DPR:

The damage formula per attack is: h(d+s)+tchd.

h = Chance to hit, expressed as a percentage
d = Damage per hit. Average damage is assumed.
s = Precision damage per hit (or other damage that isn't multiplied on a crit). Average damage is again assumed.
t = Chance to roll a critical threat, expressed as a percentage.
c = Critical hit bonus damage. x2 = 1, x3 = 2, x4 = 3.

There are 4 CR20 creatures in the bestiary 1. They have an AC of between 36 and 39. Lets call it 37. Since gravity bow seems to be a sticking point here we shall use it. I will also assume the monk has bracers of archery and AC (instead of just AC).

Against an AC of 37 a level 20 fighter needs a 2 to hit his first 3 arrows a 7 for his 4th, 12 for his 5th and a 17 for his 6th.
0.95(40+0)+0.10*3*0.95*40 = 49.4 (3 arrows)
0.70(40+0)+0.10*3*0.70*40 = 36.4
0.45(40+0)+0.10*3*0.45*40 = 23.4
0.20(40+0)+0.10*3*0.45*40 = 13.4

Total DPR: 221.4

Note: I will assume perfect strike is a 100% hit and crit. I do not remember how to calculate something that you roll 3 times and take the best two but Ill be polite about it and assume its an autohit/crit.

Against an AC of 37 a level 20 monk using Ki Attack + Gravity bow (34damage) needs a 7 (70%) to hit for 3 arrows, 12 (45%) to hit for 2 arrows, 17 (20%) to hit for 2 arrows, and a 20 (5%) to hit for his last arrow.

Perfect strike first arrow = 68
0.70(34+0)+0.10*2*0.70*34 = 28.56 (x2)
0.45(34+0)+0.10*2*0.45*34 = 18.36 (x2)
0.20(34+0)+0.10*2*0.20*34 = 8.16 (x2)
0.05(34+0)+0.10*2*0.05*34 = 3.06

Total DPR: 181.22

Now lets use the same setup but reduce the deadly aim so that the attack bonuses are equal to the fighters. For brevity I will omit the calculations. Note: this is a +5 attack and -10 damage.

Perfect Strike: 48, 95% x2: 27.36 x2, 70% x2: 20.16 x2, 45% x2: 12.96 x2, 20% x1: 5.76 x1

Total DPR: 174.72 (ie: with deadly aim missing more the DPR is still better).

Back to full Deadly Aim + gravity bow and Ki Arrow (no Ki Attack) for 49.5avg. This is a 100% (given) on first arrow, 70% on second, 45% on 3-4, 20% on 5-6, and 5% on 7th
Perfect Strike: 99
70%: 41.58
45%: 26.73x2
20%: 11.88x2
5%: 4.455

Total DPR: 222.255 (164.835 without perfect strike)

Once again, removing most of Deadly Aim +Gravity Bow and Ki Arrow (no ki attack) gives you a DPR of 242.53.

In the most extreme scenario, with a consumable resource (perfect strike, Ki Attack or Ki Arrow) the monk will finally match or exceed the fighter in DPR. But that is at the highest levels which many do not play at. Perhaps someday Ill try to do a level by level scenario again but that is difficult at best and always controverial

Yes, I did not include the guided weapon enhancement since that is in a 3.5 Paizo Product and not a 3.P paizo product. However, if it is included then in the last example modify the monks DPR by +18.97 and the fighters DPR (energy type) by +14.7. A net gain of 4.27 for the monk.

One concept not addressed is the GP problem the monk has. The fighter will have significantly more GP since the monk has to spend extra GP on wisdom (36,000gp), AC (28350 over fighter), Bracers of Archery (12500). Guided Weapon vs Energy Weapon (flaming for example) is equal on cost. As a result the monk must spend an extra 76850gp to accomplish all of this.

The monk has +1feat, +7AC and a variety of cool powers. However, the fighter holds his own. The monks equal (or slightly higher) DPR comes from a limited resource. It is a toss-up which one is better. For me, I lean towards fighter but I could go monk as well. It is a style issue between two very good classes.

- Gauss


Oops, looks like an error crept into my calculations in my last post. The last fighter arrow line should read:
0.20(40+0)+0.10*3*0.20*40 = 10.4

for a total DPR of 218.4.

Another error I let into my calculations is that at level 20 fighter critical hits are automatically confirmed. This raises the total DPR at level 20 to 240.

Been working on my own excel version to see how they really compare across the levels. Fighter version is done, now to build monk version. - Gauss

P.S. Thanks for pointing out the Gloves of Dueling, wow what a nice item.

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