Undead and Demoralize


Rules Questions


It says in the undead write up that they are immune to morale effects.

Do demoralization and other similar effects fall under this category? I have looked by I cannot find a definitive reading.


it is a hot topic, i say no but some people say yes. that was not helpful at all I realize. I am sorry

try to read up on this I ran across it in my campaign when a player wanted to do dazzling display to a vampire.
http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz41cx?Can-you-demoralize-a-vampire#22

Shadow Lodge

I don't think there is a definite reading. Morale spell effects are a given, but I'd allow, for instance, a humanoid undead to be shaken by a Dazzling Display effect. This is not a strict ruleset afterall and has some leeway, so having the monster being either impressed or wary of the character's skill is within the limits of the material.

I've been shouted down in this regard before though. Then again, many people don't understand the interaction between mindless creatures and illusions, for instance. The former does not grant metagame knowledge, it means you are unable to comprehend changes in your relevant environment and surroundings and instead exist by a strict set of rules that allow very little changes.

Sort of like an accountant really.


@Muser --

I'd allow intelligent undead to be shaken by DD. As long as they're corporeal, or the DDer has demonstrated that his weapon can overcome the protections of incorporeality. Just being humanoid isn't enough, imo; zombies are too dumb to be scared, f'r'instance.


I don't know about undead, but mindless would be immune.

Shadow Lodge

Alitan wrote:

@Muser --

I'd allow intelligent undead to be shaken by DD. As long as they're corporeal, or the DDer has demonstrated that his weapon can overcome the protections of incorporeality. Just being humanoid isn't enough, imo; zombies are too dumb to be scared, f'r'instance.

That depends, would a zombie walk into a corridor with grilles on the floor spewing flame or might they try to avoid obvious harm?

I get what you mean though and agree that this would be the case for ghouls and vampires for instance. Are skeletons mindless though? Would they avoid the blows of an earthbreaker?


Huh. I wouldn't say that they'd blithely walk into fire... but being able to recognize a hazard like fire doesn't necessarily imply enough awareness to fear the prowess of the Dazzling Display: I don't think they're sharp enough to tell the difference between a living creature trembling behind a weapon with which they aren't proficient and a living creature who is master of the weapon in his hand. Both are just meatbags with something pointy (or edgy, or knobby) to hand. Likewise, skeletons (mindless) would press the attack on anything living they weren't ordered to leave alone, regardless of how s/he had carved initials into the skulls of every skeleton in line ahead of them.

Intelligent undead would recognize the threat of the skill inherent in a Dazzling Display, and could be daunted. I might impose a slight circumstance penalty on the Intimidate check against a ghoul or vampire (are ghouls intelligent? I haven't looked at one in ages) depending on how old it was, or how ravenous. But intelligence is the mother of fear, when it comes to facing lethal force.

Shadow Lodge

Ghouls are intelligent and sometimes have class levels, yes.

Alright, now I know how it'll be ruled in my table.

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