Holy Water, Thrown splash weapons, and incorporeal undead


Rules Questions


The Rules on Holy Water and Thrown Splash Weapons:
The Rules wrote:

Holy water damages undead creatures and evil outsiders almost as if it were acid. A flask of holy water can be thrown as a splash weapon.

Treat this attack as a ranged touch attack with a range increment of 10 feet. A flask breaks if thrown against the body of a corporeal creature, but to use it against an incorporeal creature, you must open the flask and pour the holy water out onto the target. Thus, you can douse an incorporeal creature with holy water only if you are adjacent to it. Doing so is a ranged touch attack that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

A direct hit by a flask of holy water deals 2d4 points of damage to an undead creature or an evil outsider. Each such creature within 5 feet of the point where the flask hits takes 1 point of damage from the splash.

The Rules wrote:

A splash weapon is a ranged weapon that breaks on impact, splashing or scattering its contents over its target and nearby creatures or objects. To attack with a splash weapon, make a ranged touch attack against the target. Thrown splash weapons require no weapon proficiency, so you don't take the –4 nonproficiency penalty. A hit deals direct hit damage to the target, and splash damage to all creatures within 5 feet of the target. If the target is Large or larger, you choose one of its squares and the splash damage affects creatures within 5 feet of that square. Splash weapons cannot deal precision-based damage (such as sneak attack). Splash weapons cannot deal precision-based damage (such as the damage from the rogue's sneak attack class feature).

You can instead target a specific grid intersection. Treat this as a ranged attack against AC 5. However, if you target a grid intersection, creatures in all adjacent squares are dealt the splash damage, and the direct hit damage is not dealt to any creature. You can't target a grid intersection occupied by a creature, such as a Large or larger creature; in this case, you're aiming at the creature.

If you miss the target (whether aiming at a creature or a grid intersection), roll 1d8. This determines the misdirection of the throw, with 1 falling short (off-target in a straight line toward the thrower), and 2 through 8 rotating around the target creature or grid intersection in a clockwise direction. Then, count a number of squares in the indicated direction equal to the range increment of the throw. After you determine where the weapon landed, it deals splash damage to all creatures in that square and in all adjacent squares.

I'd like to know if I'm understanding this correctly.

1. The way I read it, I can only aim for a creature, or a grid intersection. Is this correct, or can I aim a thrown splash weapon at an empty square? After all, if I hit a creature, or hit a square when I miss, the eight squares surrounding it suffer splash damage. If I hit a grid intersection, it's just splash damage to its four surrounding squares. Is the only way to hit an empty square to aim for something else and miss?

2. I got a flask of holy water and want to harm an incorporeal undead with it. If I'm not adjacent to it (and can't move there), my only option is to aim for the grid intersection and if successful, deal splash damage?

3. Same as 2., but I'm adjacent to the incorporeal undead. If I douse it, is there splash damage to the adjacent squares?

4. Same as 3., but I don't want to douse it, I just want to smash the flask of holy water on the ground in its square. What kind of attack is this, what damage would be dealt?

Sczarni

The way I see it.

Against corporeal creatures ( undead ofc ):

You can target grid ( which is easier to hit ) or target them as Ranged touch attack ( which is a bit harder ). If you hit for example skeleton or hit a grid skeleton receives 2d4 holy water damage. And everyone near it ,whether they are corporeal or incorporeal receive 1 splash damage.

Against incorporeal creatures ( undead ofc ):

You can target grid ( which is easier to hit ) or target them as Ranged touch attack ( which is a bit harder ).
a) If you throw flask at grid, ghost wouldn't receive damage from holy water since it's incorporeal and howering above grid, but it would receive 1 splash damage from it.
b) If you throw flask at him, flask will pass through his body. If it lands in adjacent square he will receive 1 splash damage again from it.
c) If you come near it and pour holy water on him. You are doing ranged touch on him and he receives 2d4 damage if hit. Everyone near him receive 1 splash damage.


Malag wrote:

Against corporeal creatures ( undead ofc ):

You can target grid ( which is easier to hit ) or target them as Ranged touch attack ( which is a bit harder ). If you hit for example skeleton or hit a grid skeleton receives 2d4 holy water damage.

If I hit the grid intersection, the skeleton just receives splash damage, not full.

Really though, why can't I target an empty square? It makes no sense to me at all. I can target a diminutive creature in a square, but not an empty square. Let's say I want to damage an invisible creature with my thrown splash weapon. I don't know where it is, so I want to affect as many squares as possible with splash damage. If I aim for a grid intersection and hit, I will cover four squares. If I miss, I will hit a square and will cover a total of nine squares. Which is much better, but I cannot do it intentionally. If a group of creatures is coming at me in this formation:

XXX
X_X
XXX

and I want to affect as many of them as possible, I have to hope I'll miss, because I'm not allowed to aim for the empty square in their middle. Am I an idiot and not understanding this correctly? What do you guys tell your players when they want to aim for an empty square?

Sczarni

Strange, so far everyone I played with said I could target the grid also instead.

Scratch that about grid sections since there is no direct damage. My bad.

It says:
"You can't target a grid intersection occupied by a creature, such as a Large or larger creature; in this case, you're aiming at the creature."

I don't see it anywhere saying that you cant target that empty square. As per hitting a grid.


Quote:
A splash weapon is a ranged weapon that breaks on impact, splashing or scattering its contents over its target and nearby creatures or objects. To attack with a splash weapon, make a ranged touch attack against the target. Thrown splash weapons require no weapon proficiency, so you don't take the –4 nonproficiency penalty. A hit deals direct hit damage to the target, and splash damage to all creatures within 5 feet of the target.

It doesn't say the target has to be a creature, a square is a valid target and has AC 5 (As if it were a medium object with Dex 0). I believe you can get a +5 bonus on ranged attacks if you make the attack as a full round action because the object is inanimate and a melee attack made as a full-round action will always hit.

What makes me wonder though, does holy water deal 2d4 or 1d4 to incorporeal creatures and does it still do splash damage?

The incorporeal subtype specifies spells and magic weapons deal half damage and force effects and channel energy deal full damage. Holy water is neither, but is specified as being able to affect them, just not how.

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