An argument arose last game between DM and players.
A Barbarian with Shattered Defenses successfully demoralized (affecting a Shaken condition) a Monk/Deulist with Crane Wing and the Parry ability.
The argument arose about Shattered Defenses (based on a faulty understanding of Crane Wing).
Shatter Defenses (Combat)
Your skill with your chosen weapon leaves opponents unable to defend themselves if you strike them when their defenses are already compromised.
Prerequisites: Weapon Focus, Dazzling Display, base attack bonus +6, proficiency with weapon.Benefit: Any shaken, frightened, or panicked opponent hit by you this round is flat-footed to your attacks until the end of your next turn. This includes any additional attacks you make this round.
Crane Wing (Combat)
You move with the speed and finesse of an avian hunter, your sweeping blocks and graceful motions allowing you to deflect melee attacks with ease.Prerequisites: Crane Style, Dodge, Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +5 or monk level 5th.
Benefit: Once per round while using Crane Style, when you have at least one hand free and are either fighting defensively or using the total defense action, you can deflect one melee weapon attack that would normally hit you. You expend no action to deflect the attack, but you must be aware of it and not flat-footed. An attack so deflected deals no damage to you.
1. Is the FIRST attack made against a Shaken target by a combatant with Shattered Defenses against a flat-footed opponent or are only the attacks after the first successful hit against a flat-footed AC?
2. The reason this is all wash is because Crane Wing does not entirely NEGATE a hit, it only brings the damage of the attack down to 0 - effectively allowing Shattered Defenses to kick in.
Thematically I realize that's kinda wonky, but wording would make someone who deflects an attack with Crane Wing subject to the flat-footed quality for all subsequent attacks from that deflected opponent (with Shattered Defenses) until the end of the opponents next turn, right?
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1. It says your attacks. Not some, not "all but first", but "your attacks" that means all your attacks. So crane wing cannot block any of them since the monk is flat-footed to all of them. Unless, however, its the first attack that is causing him to become shaken from some effect that you didn't mention. If that were the case, it would really depend on the wording of that ability.
1. It says your attacks. Not some, not "all but first", but "your attacks" that means all your attacks. So crane wing cannot block any of them since the monk is flat-footed to all of them. Unless, however, its the first attack that is causing him to become shaken from some effect that you didn't mention. If that were the case, it would really depend on the wording of that ability.
http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz1jzu?Shatter-Defenses#0
http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz3dx5?Shatter-Defenses-Wording#0
These threads suggest that flat-footed status for the defender doesn't activate until after the first successful hit ("hit by you" being a condition for activation).
Deflecting a hit doesn't make it not a hit. So it'd negate damage to the first attack, I think, and then be flat-footed for all the remaining attacks.
Deflecting a hit means it did not hit. In short it turns a potential hit into an miss. The way the game works is normally in 1's and 0's. 1's are successess, and 0's are failure. Hitting and having the damage ignored is completely different than not hitting at all.
Note that crane wings has the verbage "would normally hit you". That implies that what normally would happen did not happen, however you must not be flatfooted for it to work.
That means that if the monk was already shaken he could not use CW to block anything.
Deflecting a hit means it did not hit. In short it turns a potential hit into an miss. The way the game works is normally in 1's and 0's. 1's are successess, and 0's are failure. Hitting and having the damage ignored is completely different than not hitting at all.
Note that crane wings has the verbage "would normally hit you". That implies that what normally would happen did not happen, however you must not be flatfooted for it to work.
That means that if the monk was already shaken he could not use CW to block anything.
So a shaken defender (who has not yet been hit) gets attacked by someone with Shattered Defenses. The attack roll succeeds. It is deflected. The defender is still not flat-footed to the remainder of attacks because he needed a successful hit to get the flat-footed status and that hit was turned into a miss?
Yes but the next hit then comes and if it hits its flat-footed time adn the next round no deflecting either.
So a shaken defender (who has not yet been hit) gets attacked by someone with Shattered Defenses. The attack roll succeeds. It is deflected. The defender is still not flat-footed to the remainder of attacks because he needed a successful hit to get the flat-footed status and that hit was turned into a miss?Deflecting a hit means it did not hit. In short it turns a potential hit into an miss. The way the game works is normally in 1's and 0's. 1's are successess, and 0's are failure. Hitting and having the damage ignored is completely different than not hitting at all.
Note that crane wings has the verbage "would normally hit you". That implies that what normally would happen did not happen, however you must not be flatfooted for it to work.
That means that if the monk was already shaken he could not use CW to block anything.
I read the opening post wrong. I thought the monk was already flat-footed. Ignore that first post.
Until the shaken defender is hit(not a would-be hit, that is blocked) he is not flat-footed. In short myself and Talonhawke have the same view on it. A "would-be hit" is not a hit.
PS:It seems that in the end my misreading of the first post did not change anything.