I would say the larger problem is that he is expected to ask at all. Why can't she ask him (and if she is so slovenly as you state, run the risk of being turned down) ? Isn't part of equality stepping away from such stereotypical behavior? This is another area where the bulk of feminism falls apart for me.
For some reason there are a lot of [male] geeks, that just expect to be asked out without any effort. It's rather mind boggling.
Nobody should expect to be asked out without making any effort, male or female.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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At least men can get themselves clothes without being looked upon as some rare creature.
And, frankly, more geeks should bring a woman with them when they shop. Seriously. Especially if they ever really want a woman to notice them...
Not really. Once upon a time, my mom was visiting me from out of town, so I took her with me when I went to buy a suit. Now I am not metro by any means, nor do I fit the unwashed, grease-stained black t-shirt gamer stereotype. Every time I tried something on, the saleswoman would turn to my mom and ask what she thought before asking me what I thought. I wanted to say, "hey lady, I am the one wearing the suit... and paying for it." It was like she had never seen a straight man who could pick out his own clothes. If I take Mrs. Bell with me when I buy clothing it's the same deal: the salesperson will inevitably ask her opinion before mine.
I dunno how I missed this, but same here, when I was getting my suit with my wife, my opinion was ignored on everything but whether or not the crotch was uncomfortable. Similar experience when getting a suit with my mom.
Not really. Once upon a time, my mom was visiting me from out of town, so I took her with me when I went to buy a suit. Now I am not metro by any means, nor do I fit the unwashed, grease-stained black t-shirt gamer stereotype. Every time I tried something on, the saleswoman would turn to my mom and ask what she thought before asking me what I thought. I wanted to say, "hey lady, I am the one wearing the suit... and paying for it." It was like she had never seen a straight man who could pick out his own clothes. If I take Mrs. Bell with me when I buy clothing it's the same deal: the salesperson will inevitably ask her opinion before mine.At least men can get themselves clothes without being looked upon as some rare creature.
And, frankly, more geeks should bring a woman with them when they shop. Seriously. Especially if they ever really want a woman to notice them...
Not really. Once upon a time, my mom was visiting me from out of town, so I took her with me when I went to buy a suit. Now I am not metro by any means, nor do I fit the unwashed, grease-stained black t-shirt gamer stereotype. Every time I tried something on, the saleswoman would turn to my mom and ask what she thought before asking me what I thought. I wanted to say, "hey lady, I am the one wearing the suit... and paying for it." It was like she had never seen a straight man who could pick out his own clothes. If I take Mrs. Bell with me when I buy clothing it's the same deal: the salesperson will inevitably ask her opinion before mine.At least men can get themselves clothes without being looked upon as some rare creature.
And, frankly, more geeks should bring a woman with them when they shop. Seriously. Especially if they ever really want a woman to notice them...
And so it happens... The oppression of mothers over their sons to get back at being oppressed by other men. I think I read this somewhere... Seriously, this is depressing to read.
There needs change! Men should be able to get their clothes, and women should be able to get their games!
RPG players are pedophiles
Huh. Wasn't expecting that.
Well, I'd like to stress again how not immersed into geek culture I am and then go on to say:
On the other hand, I have played D&D with between 40-50 people in my life. I, of course, don't know how many of them secretly touched little kids, but only about 10 of them were either obese, stinky, or socially retarded. Other than myself, none of them were all three--and since working at UPS, I've lost a lot of weight!
However, I am attending my first convention later this month, so maybe my view will change.
Anyway, this isn't really any kind of counterargument--just wanted to throw out my own experiences and observations.
Back to the subject at hand: but what is the subject at hand? If it's Paizo's art then I don't care. Put lithe naked Kaer Magan prostitutes or prim Taldan great aunts sipping tea on the cover, I don't care, I'll buy it if it's the same quality product they've been putting out. Or, more accurately, my hetero life partner will buy it.
If the subject is whether cheesecake is part of the patriarchal male privilege that's holding women down, then, no, I don't buy it. All that "negative-portrayals-in-the-media-causes-XXXXX" shiznit--I don't believe a word. The media, at most, reflects what's going on in the world. It doesn't cause it, and it sure as hell ain't gonna change it, either. But if we want to go any further down this road, I'm going to have to change my headgear and get out my red cap.
If you're a dude and you're reading this and saying "I'm not like that" you're probably right. But you're also not alert to just how pervasive it is in people not-you. The s#%$ I see my girlfriend deal with, the presumptions made about her intelligence and character based solely on her gender... that is what makes me so involved. If I had to face that every day, I would have had a total breakdown years ago.
Well done on noticing and being bothered by it. So many reasonable people don't see it, and that's what's frustrating. When I worked at a bookstore and recommended sci fi/fantasy books to male customers based on what I read, I'd get ignored or told I'm stupid for not liking certain authors. When a male co-worker did the same, he'd get listened to. It's those small things that really display inequality.
Obviously I'm not painting all guys with the same brush - my husband and great friends are easy examples of the fact that not all guys do those things - there are idoits in both sexes. It just so happens that I come across more male ones.
:)
I certainly don't think cheesecake is what's holding women down; Freehold said before I ever did, but cheesecake's tasty, I just don't want it at every meal.
I also don't think think the media portrayals cause anything exactly, but the media has such a presence in our lives these days, that I think it's become something of a self perpetuating beast with stereo types that have little to do with reality for any man or woman.
As for the subject at hand? I dunno, it started out as "what do you think of this linked article?" but (for me at least) it's approaching "what will the art historians think of the current society?" territory.
I also don't think think the media portrayals cause anything exactly, but the media has such a presence in our lives these days, that I think it's become something of a self perpetuating beast
with stereo types that have little to do with reality for any man or woman.
I think it all depends on how you define media. Media is part of our cultural consumption, so what we consume effects the way we think about things and what we do. Then if you factor in how much some people consume, and the quality of what we consume it will have some effect. The degree of effect is dependent on how critically you consume. So, the way I see it at least, is that media does play a big role in carrying forward the cycle of sterotypes, and creating certain expectations.
Hope I made sense, and that the spelling isn't too bad.
:)
I'll forgive any spelling mistake if you give another 6 years to learn the difference between the return key and the space bar...
What bothers me here is that your "opposite land" easily describes my childhood-young adulthood home, with a slight gap for when my mom got married and divorced.Yeah it does happen. There are women out there who think that they should control men, and there are women who think that men are their little boy toys. There are even women out there who think of men as a separate subspecies that need to be controlled.
I do not like to associate with those kinds of women.
OMG! so you know my friend Courtney too. She likes to describe herself as a free spirit but when she has 5 different guys living with her all at the same time so she has variety that's a little too free even by my standards as a hard core slut.
Back to the main topic however. All I can do to try and correct the wrongs of objectifying women in art and so forth and horrible assumption of "male" privilege is to try and objectify men more often. I honestly thought that subject was well taken care of by any of the Savage Sword of Conan magazines, the He-Man cartoons and the twilight series. Men are becoming more objectified all the time( I'm trying as hard as I can)
Seriously though. I guess I have had a incredible gaming experience. I started gaming in a group with 19 people and 3 of them were women, the next group was with 4. me and the DM his wife and our other female friend from the first game so as players it was me and two women, 3rd and 4th group all men 5th group two women and 4 guys one of the girls was learning to play and was like the groups little sister because she was in high school at the time. During those times I can remember seeing beautiful women in the artwork dressed as sorceresses,fighters,rogues, and anything else you can imagine. The men too. What king of guy goes into battle against a heavily armored opponent in a furry loin cloth? I don't care what kind of roids the guy could have done that didn't make any sense until I just realized it's the artists vision and to enjoy the piece not overly criticize it.
I think that we should just enjoy the artwork .
But, of course, I am all about love.
Non-objectified hawt chicks for the groin and mind.: A Musical Interlude
I'm all for your friends lifestyle, dood. It's about time we saw some parity here- a man doing the same thing world be held up as a paragon of stereotypical idealized behavior.
What bothers me here is that your "opposite land" easily describes my childhood-young adulthood home, with a slight gap for when my mom got married and divorced.Yeah it does happen. There are women out there who think that they should control men, and there are women who think that men are their little boy toys. There are even women out there who think of men as a separate subspecies that need to be controlled.
I do not like to associate with those kinds of women.
OMG! so you know my friend Courtney too. She likes to describe herself as a free spirit but when she has 5 different guys living with her all at the same time so she has variety that's a little too free even by my standards as a hard core slut.
Back to the main topic however. All I can do to try and correct the wrongs of objectifying women in art and so forth and horrible assumption of "male" privilege is to try and objectify men more often. I honestly thought that subject was well taken care of by any of the Savage Sword of Conan magazines, the He-Man cartoons and the twilight series. Men are becoming more objectified all the time( I'm trying as hard as I can)
Seriously though. I guess I have had a incredible gaming experience. I started gaming in a group with 19 people and 3 of them were women, the next group was with 4. me and the DM his wife and our other female friend from the first game so as players it was me and two women, 3rd and 4th group all men 5th group two women and 4 guys one of the girls was learning to play and was like the groups little sister because she was in high school at the time. During those times I can remember seeing beautiful women in the artwork dressed as sorceresses,fighters,rogues, and anything else you can imagine. The men too. What king of guy goes into battle against a heavily armored opponent in a furry loin cloth? I don't care what kind of roids the guy could have done that didn't make any sense until I just realized it's the artists...
Good points mandisa, and it's great to see you again!
I would say the larger problem is that he is expected to ask at all. Why can't she ask him (and if she is so slovenly as you state, run the risk of being turned down) ? Isn't part of equality stepping away from such stereotypical behavior? This is another area where the bulk of feminism falls apart for me.For some reason there are a lot of [male] geeks, that just expect to be asked out without any effort. It's rather mind boggling.
Nobody should expect to be asked out without making any effort, male or female.
I don't think it's some huge shock to recognize that most people who self-identify as geeks (which is not everyone who loves geeky things, oddly) are often shy, or socially awkward, or have higher-than-average issues with self-image and/or self-esteem. Asking someone out on a date is a big step, fraught with social complexity & risk, and often requires more than a small amount of self-confidence and hope of success. I've seen many folks in my club take 3-6 months before they even tell us their name & favorite series, and it's a pretty low-stress social environment. So 'geek love' has more than its fair share of obstacles to overcome.
As for the original article and the thread, while I think pin-up art in SF/Fantasy in general is a whole can of clashing commercial vs aesthetic interests and personal opinions (which reserve the right to change daily), I think the main issue is how we as geeks treat each other, especially in clearly-delineated "geek havens".
I've seen the atmosphere at anime & general geek cons get progressively more welcoming and egalitarian to different flavors of people, but it seems like there are still odd little nooks that put out a sense of "go away and don't bother us". Similar deal with some of the comics & game shops (here in NYC), even as retail stores close left and right, there are some shops that act like a woman's money isn't as green or something.
On the topic of objectifying characters in RPG art, I wonder how people feel about the comic/toon look vs. the the slightly more realistic style?
Sure, the elf chick in the Elmore piece is showing almost as much leg as Seoni does, but she looks to me like she might also have a personality. Is it easier to objectify genders if you convert all the people into toons first (since cartoons aren't really people anyway)? I don't care which style people like better or think is cooler or more exciting or more boring or more lame -- just about the connection with the topic at hand.
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As always can we be careful to not let this devolve? If someone breaks rule 1 flag it and move on.
There is a follow up gender issues Kotaku article here.
Thanks for the link. As before I agree with some and disagree with others.
What's amusing about that is that it's pretty much a summary of the discussion here. I think we might have missed a few points.
To be fair though, we had links to Cabaret and HD's whole "you guys tolerate child molesterers but draw the line at this!" argument.
Not to mention a perma-banned poster blowing his cool IN HIS FIRST SEVEN POSTS after being allowed back in!
Anyway.
Goblins do it in the street!
As always can we be careful to not let this devolve? If someone breaks rule 1 flag it and move on.
There is a follow up gender issues Kotaku article here.
More incredible heights of hypocrisy. I'm going to derail dismiss and deride everyone's counterpoints by pointing out derailing dismissing and denying!
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Ok, I can see your point about the practicality of her outfit, and your change does address that. But, like Kirth, it took me a solid three minutes to even see the difference between the two pics, to be honest. But then, I'm really not a breast man anyway, so it isn't my natural focus when looking at the female form.
Actually, I was more bothered about the improbable pose she had, and how off balance she looked.
Trust me, I'm not trying to marginalize anyone's concerns here, I just worry that sometimes people just look for things to be offended by. Society has made a lot of mistakes overreacting to things (everything from Prohibition to the PAtriot Act in recent times), so I get nervous when people go on a crusade (not that you are, by a long shot - I feel your concerns have a lot more to do with art not being silly than not being juvenile).
And, to add to what others have said, yes, your addition does improve the illo, more practical without being less appealing.
Yeah, that was the point of me making the edit. Talking about how her top is stupid (it's the "jump the shark" part of the picture for me) was getting treated as if I wanted to stick all women pictured in RPG products in burkas, so I decided to actually give an example of what I meant. And in that thread, as here, most of the people that thought the original art was "fine" or better...took a significant amount of time to see my edit.
At the time, WotC was making a big push to increase women's interest in their products - Confessions of a Part Time Sorceress (or something like that) had just been published, and they were talking about increasing their female fanbase. A new edition was coming out...and then...this. Idiot McFireball, spelunking in her WonderCorset.
Idiot mcFireball is a caster of some sort. She can't wear armor, she can wear a pretty dress or robes or whatever, that's great. For me this image in particular required that the woman on the cover be an appropriate avatar for potential players. An appealing avatar...this is the seminal piece of art of a new edition of D&D! This should be something that says to girls and women: This game is for you too!
Instead we got the tired old T&A pose and an imminent wardrobe malfunction.
Every adventurer can't be Seelah. Seelah is perfect is so many ways...the straightforward projection of strength, the beautiful but functional looking armor, the fact that she's not the default white person. It's great!
But some adventurers are going to dress to emphasize their sexuality. And even warriors like Seelah have social functions to attend where a beautiful gown might be more appropriate than their shining armor.
The issue is, for me, that I want to feel that a good portion of the figures presented as potential avatars for players feel like someone you want to be. Not just someone you would only ever want to do. Seoni is the only one that I feel particularly annoyed by, and it comes down to my understanding from her bio that she's an introvert (so I don't think the image fits her character), and the fact that I know bouncing around adventuring without support for those puppies has to hurt.
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(Jess, your input would be cool for this next part)
Ok!
I'm going to create the "typical dork at the FLGS gaming room". Let's call him, say, Mike, nice generic name. Dude is creepy, slovenly, inappropriate, stinky, and the classic image a lot of non-gamers have of our hobby. The type has zero ability to speak with a woman without coming off as a sex offender (and, after my horrible last experience in prison, might just be), constantly makes just bizarre comments and generally is really annoying and a buzz kill. And there are a lot of them in our hobby.An aside: in Federal prison, RPGs are described as "what the chomos (sex offenders - shortened from "child molester") play". And that's system wide. That's the rep we have there. There were guys who love playing that wouldn't until I went back because they didn't want the chomo label. When I got there, I could safely run a table because my rep was established during my first swing through, and they guys still there knew I wasn't a sex offender and played D&D.
Hm. Yes. Well, the first DM I met here in Houston, who later asked me out, turned out to be a registered sexual offender. Ooooof. So...yeah. Never heard that stereotype myself in Michigan, but ran into it here, and how!
So, our hobby has an image problem in a lot of places, not just with women.
I have run into these players in a couple of places.
Most commonly, conventions.
I've also met them at meetup groups, games in shops, once found a whole group of them and enablers at a home game I was invited to.
That experience was interesting...it might be worth the full story:
I have a gaming buddy that invited me to one of his other home groups. This guy is shy, overweight, but kind, respectful, funny and an okay guy to be around. Our whole group likes him. I show up at the game, and the fun started from the word go.
I showed up with a peace offering of a pack of Mountain Dew. The guys had kindly drawn up two characters for me, since I, being crippled by two X chromosomes, obviously couldn't create a character myself. These characters were helpfully named "The B@$*%" (paladin) and "The Slut" (sorceress).
As an aside, we are not off on good footing, here.
Given this introduction, there's no way in hell I'm playing "The Slut". I've had otherwise great groups of guys suddenly decide the party should all begin pimping out my character if I try to flesh her out with a sex life. This does not, on first blush, seem like an otherwise great group of guys. Ice Queen it is.
As I figure the gloves are already off, I begin going over the character. I don't remember what the issues were, but they gave her godawful feats, a poor selection of skills, and I believe even forgot to give her one of her feats. I corrected these and other issues, reworked her items...while wondering aloud at the mistakes.
Then gameplay begins. ONe of the guys is playing a female character. A sorceress! And guess what? She's a slut! That is excited by monsters! Even after the party's killed them! And anything else, of course. And this is all, I'm informed helpfully, incredibly realistic roleplay.
After I loaned said sorceress a mirror to fight some vampires, she refused to return it to my character. The player smilingly informed me I couldn't do anything about it - my character was a paladin, and couldn't attack. I informed the player that my character was drawing her sword and threatening to bring the sorceress into town under charge of theft if the mirror wasn't returned. I was okay with burning bridges...I could tell I wouldn't be back.
The DM pulled me aside after the session was over and said my friend hadn't asked permission to bring me to the game, and that I "wouldn't fit". Which...I think...is true. Heh.
In the end, I think this was a guy's night out sort of game. Which is cool, don't get me wrong. But then don't freaking invite a woman over to play in it!
geez.
When I was released, I saw someone called out Shimoko Pedobear for always making "loli" characters and for just being creepy in general. And this community, more or less, defended him. And, honestly, his type does a lot more damage, image wise, to our hobby than some guy who likes looking at pics of cleavage on obviously of age (if impractical) women.So, I just scratch my head at a lot of this stuff. The game is what it is (D&D style fantasy roleplay), a violent goofy hobby with pics of chainmail bikinis. If we make it too "female friendly" (whatever that means), at what point to we start losing the immature sexually repressed male market? Which, if we're honest, is a big part of the market. Most women, like most men, are never going to be gamers. Most of the women I see socially think it's cute that I still play make believe with my buddies (and every group I play with other than my Wednesday game has at least one female player, btw), but they have zero interest in joining.
So, yeah, if we're discussing how impractical and unbelievable women's outfits can be portrayed, I'm down for that discussion, and probably will agree in most instances.
If we're discussing making a hobby more accessible for women, but we don't address the actual misfits, pedos and creepy weirdos that make up a good chunk of the hobby, and how to get rid of them, I really can't add much. It isn't the pics and stuff that bug me, it's the actual people in our hobby I see a lot of that creep me out, and sometimes make ME want to find something else to do.
The misfits are a problem. It comes up a lot.
Honestly, I was a misfit. Maybe less creepy than some, but I actually purposely used tabletop roleplaying as a way to get more in person social interaction. I was the nerd that was more comfortable with numbers and computers than actual human beings. After a good while working on this, I think I've arrived at a reasonable level of human socialization. IN fact, I've had people say recently they think I'm an extrovert. I'm not, but I can follow social norms on a day to day basis without thinking about it too hard anymore.
Why is it so prevalent in our circle? I think part of it is the nature of roleplaying makes peoples' issues more of a problem then they would be playing baseball or bridge. Roleplaying, even on the most basic level, reveals a lot about yourself, and if someone has a problem, that tends to come out more than it would while playing Pinochle.
the Geek Social Fallacies are another reason. We've had people in our groups that were a problem, and being a bunch of misfits ourselves at points in our lives, it's hard to be the "mean" ostracizer that says "No, we can't deal with or overlook your issues anymore. Sorry. Bye." It is a problem. And I sure don't have the answer for it.
Will making the hobby more friendly to women gamers encourage people to improve their social skills or ostracize the truly creepy gamers they tolerated before? Or will the hobby only become more women friendly once some other factor removes the creepy?
Heck if I know.
I think this is a good time to point out that, despite the anecdotal evidence in this thread, my general experience with gamers has been that they are socially well adjusted people. Perhaps even more-so than people categorized by other hobbies.
I think that the social nature of the game makes people tend to cluster in groups of reliable, socially well adjusted people... in a private home. This means the public face of the hobby soaks up not only cool people who like participating in organized play or proselytizing the game, but also the social leftovers; people who use public gaming because they don't have anywhere else to go.
This is not a problem for sports enthusiasts, who can enjoy the heart of the hobby in isolation and use their interest to supplement human connection. This hobby requires you to put yourself out there.
When I meet gamers who aren't looking for a group and just happen to be gamers, they're usually extremely nice, well-mannered people.
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I would agree with this. By far the majority of gamers are cool people. The image of the stereotypical annoying gamer could easily come about because those are the gamers left trolling public venues rather than enjoying private games, because one bad gamer in a group makes the whole experience unpleasant even if everyone else is cool, and because the nature of the game can tend to bring out more of gamer quirks publicly than other games.
I certainly wouldn't say that gamers are any worse than any other segment of the population; I hope anything I've said here has come across as more analysis than accusation.
I do however think that RPGs are sort of in the goldilocks zone of weirdo attraction. For one thing, a lot of the game is about wish fulfillment, and an immature person can get very immature, very quickly. For another, as Jess said, it only takes one jerk like that to ruin a whole table's experience and turn off a new comer forever.
Or maybe I'm still just aghast that F.A.T.A.L. ever got published, don't ask me.
I’m guilty.
I have to admit that I specifically bought my first Paizo product specifically for the hot babe on the cover - Not for any deeper reason, or because of any previous experience with their handling of Dragon & Dungeon.
But, that does lead to some – for me as an “immature” heterosexual male – difficult questions. Such as why would she dress that way? (Especially when you consider the attire of her male counterpart). It isn’t because of her “ethnic” background even, because then as a Varisian she would be wearing something closer to this (and even for that justification she should have put a rank in Perform[dance]).
So, I have a couple of questions:
- What should she be wearing?
- Am I wrong to point out that the cliché that "sex sells" is based in truth? (So the "sexualized images are not going to go away.)
- So, as a self-described ““immature heterosexual male" (thus the main beneficiary of this “male privilege”) is it possible to have “both” acceptably sensible clothing that is still “Hawt?”
Me & the hubby are trying to start a trend of photo-blocking when we see folks (yeah, usually 30s-40s guys) trying to take wholly uncool pics of cosplayers. Not skimpy-dress types - I mean the zoom lens from extreme angles, make your own RL fanservice type.
I would be cautious here. Remember, security is at the con for a reason. Attempting to encourage vigilante behavior on the con circuit, especially for good reasons that are probably already acknowledged by con staff- isn't a good idea.
Slight threadjack: are there any females out there who consider sexy female subjects in art to be female empowerment? I mean in a sort of reverse James Bond kind of way (women want him, men want to be him). Female sex appeal is a kind of power, especially power over men. Does this power dynamic at all play into the power fantasy that is RPGs? Now I am not at all suggesting that women's only value or only power is in sex appeal, and I acknowledge that most women, while they consider sexuality a component of their identity, would not want it to be considered the primary defining component of their identity.
A belated reply.
This is very definitely a thing for me, at least. There are a lot of female characters that make me feel both 'I want her' and 'I want to be her'.
One of the main reasons I've felt oppressed and degraded so often is not because of objectification of the generically ideal female appearance, but because of the overwhelming stigma associated with expressing enjoyment of that same image. I like big busts, tight waists and curvy hips a hell of a lot and for all of my life I have felt terrible because 'intelligent culture' paints having such tastes as crude and disgusting. Being gay and growing up in a fundamentalist Christian home didn't help.
As for being offended by women portrayed as sex objects, I have had a think about that and I would have to say that I am not terribly put off by oversexed art most of the time. What bothers me is women being portrayed as helpless or useless sex victims.
For example, I like Soul Calibur's Ivy. She's stupidly sexy and dressed ridiculously but makes no appearances whatsoever that she's just a toy to be used by men. She kicks ass. However, if she was portrayed bending over or crying as someone looms over her, that would make me want to stab out the eyeballs of whoever was responsible. The T&A pose is bad, but doesn't bug me much. It is bad art and I don't like bad art, but other than that I just go meh.
Also, I have tried standing in that pose. It's really hard! I don't know how anyone could end up standing like that on purpose.
Maybe my tolerance for sexy female art is higher because it appeals to my desires in the same way it's designed to appeal to men. Perhaps the appeal is even stronger than it is for most men, presenting the twofold appeal of something that I find hot and something I would like to be. I'm not sure how I'd go about discerning whether that's true.
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Slight threadjack: are there any females out there who consider sexy female subjects in art to be female empowerment? I mean in a sort of reverse James Bond kind of way (women want him, men want to be him). Female sex appeal is a kind of power, especially power over men. Does this power dynamic at all play into the power fantasy that is RPGs? Now I am not at all suggesting that women's only value or only power is in sex appeal, and I acknowledge that most women, while they consider sexuality a component of their identity, would not want it to be considered the primary defining component of their identity.
When the situation calls for it, art of a woman obviously doing her best to look sexy is great! Most adventurers, while battling an enemy, aren't going to adopt a T&A pose in a prostitute getup (with the exception of those adventurers whose primary weapon is sex appeal - a dangerous proposition when not all enemies will be susceptable to your gender's or species' charms! Nymphs and succubi again come to mind.) however. It's when said art subordinates her identity as an adventurer, villain or person to her sex appeal to the male eye.
The Wondercorset piece it clear that making (trying to make?) her sexy trumped her competency as an adventurer. Given the context - cover of the PHB of a new edition - this was particularly annoying.
Re: dealing with weirdos when you're a weirdo yourself
in my experience as a perennial stranger in a strange land (even my wife and parents and friends think I'm strange), it's all a matter of how you go about it. Coming across like weirdo police, by and large, does NOT work. It makes one seem
You're-doing-it-wrong-hypocritical at best and everybody-stop-doing-what-I-don't-like-bullying at the worse. I have found that it is better to address individual behaviors that one encounters as they come up,right then and there, and even then only if one has the energy for what could be a struggle. Jess Door deserves sainthood for the situation she encountered, I would have left immediately unless I had the fortitude to get into why such pregens were unacceptable. Largely because when you are encountering someone with a low level of social functioning, they really *don't* know something is wrong until explained to. While yes, there are a lot of people who are just plain obstinate, angry, bitter or for whatever reason have decided to reject social cues, such people are rare. Has anyone else had similar experiences? Am I off the mark somehow? I did give blood yesterday, so I may be a bit off anyway.
Re: dealing with weirdos when you're a weirdo yourself
in my experience as a perennial stranger in a strange land (even my wife and parents and friends think I'm strange), it's all a matter of how you go about it. Coming across like weirdo police, by and large, does NOT work. It makes one seem
You're-doing-it-wrong-hypocritical at best and everybody-stop-doing-what-I-don't-like-bullying at the worse. I have found that it is better to address individual behaviors that one encounters as they come up,right then and there, and even then only if one has the energy for what could be a struggle. Jess Door deserves sainthood for the situation she encountered, I would have left immediately unless I had the fortitude to get into why such pregens were unacceptable. Largely because when you are encountering someone with a low level of social functioning, they really *don't* know something is wrong until explained to. While yes, there are a lot of people who are just plain obstinate, angry, bitter or for whatever reason have decided to reject social cues, such people are rare. Has anyone else had similar experiences? Am I off the mark somehow? I did give blood yesterday, so I may be a bit off anyway.
I don't think you're off the mark, but my issue (harking back to the example in the original article) is that people who can't don't understand the (obvious to me) social cues usually aren't all that great at taking criticism.
That's why I've been saying I don't think this thread is a great way to make any real social change or whatever you want to call it. I enjoy the conversation, but if you're willing to have it in a civil fashion, you probably already agree with most of what's being said. Simply put, the one guy who might really have benefitted from what we're talking about here got kicked by the mods because of his own reaction.
Giving blood, Freehold? You keep this up, you'll give gamers a decent reputation...
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Jess Door deserves sainthood for the situation she encountered, I would have left immediately unless I had the fortitude to get into why such pregens were unacceptable.
I do not deserve sainthood. I was so pissed off I decided to go out of my way to stick around and underline for them not only how stupid they were in their assumptions about me, and how mysogynistic they were in their treatment of me, but also how I was better than them. I usually try really hard not to be an arrogant twit. I went out of my way to be arrogant and condescending on that particular day. I feel in some ways like I lowered myself to their poor standards - I'm usually pretty upbeat and positive - but that day I was pissed and insulted and decided to let my baser instincts run wild. :\
We all have weirdnesses. I lay claim to quite a few myself. Sometimes it's worth having a conversation with someone on their issues...but honestly, the people with real problems, like HitDice said, generally won't benefit from the advice. Even long time friends, when you try to address a serious issue in a firm but loving manner, rarely react well. It's like a mini-intervention. Those take a lot of work and fortitude.
We had a gamer in our group that belonged to the group before I joined. I didn't really have a good friendship with him, but I didn't dislike him or anything. He would be rude or thoughtless sometimes ( a little more than the other members of the group), but it was of such a low grade that I just found him annoying on occasion and VERY annoying every once in a while.
He had narcolepsy. Bad. He'd fallen asleep during stoplights bad. He would sleep in the game...and he was one of those players that acts stupidly and gets other characters that try to help his character killed (I purposely only played characters that would happily let his character die once I saw the pattern early on). We were annoyed that he kept sleeping and snoring through games...and worried about the safety of him driving an hour to get to our games. We pushed him to get help, but he refused free medical services available to him (because they weren't good enough). He lost two jobs within the week he was hired due to sleeping on the job. We staged a mini-intervention of the closest players (it was at myu house, so I of course was there too) to let him know we were serious that he needed to get help. He took it remarkably well, and agreed. A month later he said he'd cancelled his appointments. I had expected this, but the others were surprised and upset. None of them, however, were willing to actually carry out the consequences we'd outlined - if he wasn't going to get help to make sure he was safe on the road, he would be dis-invited from games because we wouldn't be responsible for him driving and possibly killing someone.
Finally, I just sat down and did it. It was ugly. I haven't heard from him since. Nobody else was willing to bite the bullet. But it had to be done. The thought of him falling asleep on the road and dying, or, God forbid, killing someone else, was just too high a risk to run to spare his self delusion that everything was fine.
It's really hard to do something like that. It's a lot easier to ignore the situation or just shun the person. Facing that defensive anger or blind denial of the issue is hard to do - and probably not always worth it. I can only hope in this case he'll eventually realize we did it to try to force him to get help, instead of just to reject him.
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If there may be lives at stake, it's always worth it, no matter how unpleasant.
But then, Jess, you know me. Not being blunt is antithetical for me anyway.
The more I read this thread, the more disconnected I feel from a lot of these issues. My awkward phase was normal teen stuff, and never carried over into adult life. I live in a completely different world than most of the gamers I know outside of my immediate gaming circles (on these boards that would be Jess, Kirth, Wolfthulu, TOZ and his wife, Silverhair, Androstre, Psychotic Hamster and a few others).
I'll be honest, I can't stand being around or being associated with most of the gamers I encounter. Outside of the people I know and have personal relationships with, most of the people I met at OwlCon would never get an invite to a beer or to my home. Yeah, I'm a social snob to a degree. I don't live in geek world outside of gaming. Most of my leisure activities have nothing to do with geeky stuff (I like some TV shows - firefly, star trek, stuff like that, haven't read a superhero comic since I was a kid, this is the only gaming forum I remember my log in to, hate anime and manga with a passion, pretty much can't stand Japan worship at all (seriously? one of the most racist and xenophobic cultures on the planet is somehow cooler than ours?), don't play video games outside of Madden and NBA Live with my nephews (Skyrim? Meh.) and have a hard time getting worked up about whatever geeks get worked up about).
I just like playing rpgs because I started young and it stayed with me.
So, when I read an article like that, I don't think "what can we do to make the culture more accessible", I think "why would she WANT to hang out with a bunch of geeks, I don't even really like to".
uh... Well, at least you weren't physically violent towards them!
I'm sorry, jess. I thought you were more diplomatic in that scenario. Still, you showed more restraint than some, I'm sure.
But... I though we were gonna hang out in Chinatown together!
If there may be lives at stake, it's always worth it, no matter how unpleasant.
But then, Jess, you know me. Not being blunt is antithetical for me anyway.
The more I read this thread, the more disconnected I feel from a lot of these issues. My awkward phase was normal teen stuff, and never carried over into adult life. I live in a completely different world than most of the gamers I know outside of my immediate gaming circles (on these boards that would be Jess, Kirth, Wolfthulu, TOZ and his wife, Silverhair, Androstre, Psychotic Hamster and a few others).
I'll be honest, I can't stand being around or being associated with most of the gamers I encounter. Outside of the people I know and have personal relationships with, most of the people I met at OwlCon would never get an invite to a beer or to my home. Yeah, I'm a social snob to a degree. I don't live in geek world outside of gaming. Most of my leisure activities have nothing to do with geeky stuff (I like some TV shows - firefly, star trek, stuff like that, haven't read a superhero comic since I was a kid, this is the only gaming forum I remember my log in to, hate anime and manga with a passion, pretty much can't stand Japan worship at all (seriously? one of the most racist and xenophobic cultures on the planet is somehow cooler than ours?), don't play video games outside of Madden and NBA Live with my nephews (Skyrim? Meh.) and have a hard time getting worked up about whatever geeks get worked up about).
I just like playing rpgs because I started young and it stayed with me.
So, when I read an article like that, I don't think "what can we do to make the culture more accessible", I think "why would she WANT to hang out with a bunch of geeks, I don't even really like to".
The more I read this thread, the more disconnected I feel from a lot of these issues. My awkward phase was normal teen stuff, and never carried over into adult life. I live in a completely different world than most of the gamers I know outside of my immediate gaming circles (on these boards that would be Jess, Kirth, Wolfthulu, TOZ and his wife, Silverhair, Androstre, Psychotic Hamster and a few others).
I'll be honest, I can't stand being around or being associated with most of the gamers I encounter. Outside of the people I know and have personal relationships with, most of the people I met at OwlCon would never get an invite to a beer or to my home. Yeah, I'm a social snob to a degree. I don't live in geek world outside of gaming. Most of my leisure activities have nothing to do with geeky stuff (I like some TV shows - firefly, star trek, stuff like that, haven't read a superhero comic since I was a kid, this is the only gaming forum I remember my log in to, hate anime and manga with a passion, pretty much can't stand Japan worship at all (seriously? one of the most racist and xenophobic cultures on the planet is somehow cooler than ours?), don't play video games outside of Madden and NBA Live with my nephews (Skyrim? Meh.) and have a hard time getting worked up about whatever geeks get worked up about).
I just like playing rpgs because I started young and it stayed with me.
That sounds similar to my experience Houston; I enjoy playing and talking about RPGs, reading comics, and playing World of Warcraft, but I don't want them to be the only thing I talk about.
I don't think anyone's demanding that you feel connected to the issues described here so much as admit they exist. Well, and not stare at females' chests, but that's just good manners in any culture, geek or otherwise.
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After reading HD's post, I feel the need to point out that I am, in fact, wicked cool.
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Dude, depends on the female. Some women spend good money to get you to stare...
And, I don't live in hyper-sensitive people land any more than I live in geek land. Most of the people in my social circle, male and female, don't give a rat's ass about any of this. All they care about is having a good time and meeting interesting people. And we objectify each other all the time. We dress how we dress and act how we act because we're trying to hook up or find someone to hang with.
If I hear a chick start prattling off about her "womyn's studies" stuff, I tune out and find an excuse to talk to a woman who is fun, not a buzz kill. If I hear a dude prattling off about the same stuff I wander off and find someone to talk football with.
I'm not politically correct. I say "chick" and "dude" ffs. I have no problem checking out hotties. I have no problem telling a woman all I want is casual sex. I have game. But I don't go out of my way to be a boor (well, unless I think I'll get a reaction I'd find amusing, mostly in the context of gaming or poking a hole in someone's self righteous bubble, I'm kind of an a!@#@&! like that).
As to the issues existing, sure. They exist. I just don't really care that much. We play in a hobby mostly informed by pulp fiction. Conan, Barsoom, all kinds of stuff like that. And, I hate to say it, there's nothing wrong with having stuff guys like that women may not. And vice versa. Not everything has to be accessible to everyone all the time.
And, again, if you want to know why there aren't more female gamers, it's because most male gamers aren't attractive. Yep. Game art has little to do with why a lot of women aren't drawn to the hobby. That is, if you care to cut through the bullshit and accept that women objectify men just as often as the converse.
And that's the post where I gave up on convincing Houston Derek. Ah, well. I felt like we were close there.
As to the issues existing, sure. They exist. I just don't really care that much. We play in a hobby mostly informed by pulp fiction. Conan, Barsoom, all kinds of stuff like that. And, I hate to say it, there's nothing wrong with having stuff guys like that women may not. And vice versa. Not everything has to be accessible to everyone all the time.
Bolded by me for the sake of emphasis; I think everyone who wants to have access to a thing should have access.
You say chick and dude? So do I. You don't care about the issue? I do, but whatever, your feelings are your business. There isn't anything wrong with having stuff guys like that women don't or vice versa, but there isn't anything right about it either.
I do however think we should begin every play session with a prayer to the mother goddess, reading "sisterhood is beautiful," just cause I'm a Sensitive New Age Guy {tm}.
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Which part did the most damage? It really is hard for be to get this, or really care, because a) I really don't care much about whether or not the hobby survives commercially, and b) I really don't care about people being offended at every little thing.
And, the only way any of these arguments work is if there's a tacit agreement that women are somehow "better" than men. Less objectifying. Less competitive. More pure. And that's complete b.s.
A confession: I watched a Jason Statham movie last night. Sometimes I think he's way too metro to be an action star. But part of me thinks he's kind of cool, too.
I frakkin LOVE Jason Statham. I'm even willing to forgive that dungeon siege movie and crank 2. He better not make a 3rd, though.
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Which part did the most damage? It really is hard for be to get this, or really care, because a) I really don't care much about whether or not the hobby survives commercially, and b) I really don't care about people being offended at every little thing.
And, the only way any of these arguments work is if there's a tacit agreement that women are somehow "better" than men. Less objectifying. Less competitive. More pure. And that's complete b.s.
More like you're entitled to your opinion. You do keep steering the conversation to directions that you're more adversarial about. It's just not worth trying to convince you.
It's not about role-playing games, and it's definitely not about one gender being superior. I think there's zero risk of anyone suffering commercially from keeping with the status quo.
Nor do I care about people being offended at "every little thing". I get pissed off when I see people treat women poorly, or judge them based solely on the fact that they are women. And it happens. And all of the RPG stuff and the dweebs in the Kotaku article are just symptoms. The bad writing that pisses me off is a symptom, and the disease is a mindset that "I am better and smarter than you because of how my genitalia are configured."
Of course, it goes both ways sometimes but if we're keeping score...
I doubt I could succeed at making you upset at the injustice. It doesn't affect you. It only indirectly affects me. That's why most guys don't give a shit. For what it's worth, thanks for discussing it civilly.
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I discuss things civilly with civil people. Y'all are having a reasonable discussion about something I don't get, vis a vis the gaming scene. I understand the greater issues, but, as I do not conduct myself in such a way (my bosses, for instance, are women, they're good at their job, and gender has nothing to do with it), I have trouble seeing it from that perspective.
Jess has gamed with me, and she'll tell you I'm an oblivious idiot from time to time, and I'm overly "player-ish", but I'm a decent sort (or, at least I hope she sees me like that as I value her opinion quite a bit).
And, I admit, I was seeing this topic mostly through the gamer filter, and, as I don't feel comfortable around or like most gamers I meet, I don't understand why any sane woman would care what a bunch of juvenile goofballs with social issues think.
So, I apologize if I seem like I'm trivializing anything here, but I honestly don't "get" it on some level.
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You know what really pisses me off? The whole "I'm a girl so I'm supposed to be bad at math and science" thing. My former students pulled that crap all the time, and my wife and her sisters do it, and it's so pervasive and so incorrect it makes me want to puke sometimes. When I was teaching high school, the girls routinely outperformed the boys, by a fairly substantial margin, on the standardized science testing. Now that I'm in industry, when I meet with college-age people for recruiting, the chicks are routinely outperforming the dudes in engineering. Among my co-workers, some of the women are working hard and competently and professionally, and aren't getting recognized for it because so many of the other females pretend to be helpless and collect their checks and figure that's enough to get by on.
I don't think women are naturally better at those things -- I suspect they're dominant academically partly because young guys are more inclined to be slackers, and guys also typically work a lot harder at trying to pick up their classmates, so they have less attention left over for actual studying. But that aside, I can pretty well guarantee that women, on average, are not one iota less able in those fields than are men. Sorry, guys, but it's true. And that being the case, if I'm going to hire a female scientist or engineer, sorry sweetie, but for business purposes I don't care if you're on the beach volleyball team. I care if you're able to meet deadlines and anticipate chemical degradation products and design buildings that won't fall down.
So on the whole I spend a LOT more time worrying about women being welcomed as scientists and engineers than I do about women being welcomed as gamers.