The UEFA Euro2012 Discussion Thread


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Grand Lodge

Spain:
First, I acknowledge that I've only been following football for 2 1/2 years and even then it's almost all Arsenal that I follow, and additionally have no one to teach me the subtleties and truths of the game....
BUT.

I think Spain have a great idea with their 4-6-0 formation. Not because it's such a great formation but because they have the players to succeed with it at the highest level.

Sure, it'd be different if Villa were healthy! Sure, it'd be different if Torres had his confidence and was scoring the way he did for Liverpool.

But neither of those is true right now. And THOSE six midfielders! On the pitch at the same time. No. Problem. Especially since you can always remove one of them and put in Torres!

I don't at all think 4-6-0 is a poor line-up -- for that team and those midfielders.

Silver Crusade

Right up until they go up against a really good side.

England beat Spain recently at Wembley 1-0. My brother was at the game and he said that Spain had most of the possession and were very skilled and pretty but lacked a cutting edge. That's the issue. I suspect they will get to the final and lose to Germany, a more complete team all round.

Put it this way they are only playing 4-6-0 because they lack a top quality striker if they had Villa or an on form Torres this formation would be consigned to the dustbin. It's like having an American team with great Running Backs but no Wide Receivers, in the end that will bite you on the butt.

On another note I am curious to see what non British broadcasters thought of England's performance against Italy. The general consensus over here was that England were embarrassingly outplayed and that Rooney and Young had terrible games. What was the response of your pundits? I'm curious to know.


FallofCamelot wrote:


On another note I am curious to see what non British broadcasters thought of England's performance against Italy. The general consensus over here was that England were embarrassingly outplayed and that Rooney and Young had terrible games. What was the response of your pundits? I'm curious to know.

The live comment on that game wondered over and over why England tried to rech the penalties in the second half of the game and the added time. Rooney did not live up to his reputation, and the whole team was playing weak overall - as if they could not keep up with Italy. Overall, it was like "why are they playing like this? They seemed stronger before."


Over here there weren't that much focus on England's performance - it can pretty much be summed up as: "they just weren't good enough to challenge Italy, and speaking of which, how about that Pirlo, eh?"

Grand Lodge

Two hours away.
Spain will win.

I REALLY want to see their 4-6-0; I want to see it for evidence one way or the other -- to see if it's good. I think it is but we need to see more.


Oh I don't think anyone's saying it's not good - it's just that a lot of us feel that adding sacrificing one of the 6 to get a 1 up front tends to make for more opportunities to play it deep and get a scoring opportunity not all teams will be as abject as France was. For instance, the group game where they started in a 4-6-0 [although that's really a bit facetious, it's 4-5-1 with a false 9] formation - against Italy - they didn't get their goal until they'd brought on Torres and started to threaten more often.

It's not necessarily that the forward is more likely to score (although, despite recent evidence to the contrary, even an out-of-form Torres is probably going to be better at taking his chance to score than a Xabi Alonso shooting from inside the attacking half) so much as him creating more space for the attacking midfielders by forcing the opposing defenders to back off a bit further.

Grand Lodge

Yeah, I've learned enough to know that 4-5-1 or 4-4-2 is better but I was pretty enthused when I first saw that 4-6-0.

.
.

Okay, Newbie question, here:

What is the "#9" position -- and #s 10 & 11?!?

I know they're the forward strikers but something is eluding me.

In a 4-4-2, the last two players are #10 & #11, yes? Is it right side / left side to determine which is #10 and which is #11? Is the "better" player #10?!? Or is it more like a 4-4-1-1, where the first "1" is the #10?
And what does this mean -- what does it IMPLY?
In Argentina Messi is #10 & Tevez is #11 -- use that as an example to teach me; it's confusing.

And then -- WTF is #9?!?!
Arsene Wenger and RVP have both said van Persie is like a #9 1/2.
What does this mean?!?
My guess is that the #9 is the forward-most midfielder who attacks the goal -- but that doesn't even seem likely in a 4-4-2, it only seems likely in a 4-2-3-1 (AKA 4-5-1, right?) -- but you just said that in that formation it's a "false 9" -- please explain like you'd explain if I were a newbie to Pathfinder asking how hit points work.

THANKS!


First off, the numbers players have these days have no (or as little as to have no importance) bearing on the discussion.

Basically it's a remnant from when they started using numbered shirts - before substitutions were allowed (that cost Hungary the final in 1956, by the way *glares at the Germans*), which meant that the players just had number 1-11, and almost always the same number for each position. If I remember correctly, the normal position at the time was the W-M formation (3-2-2-3)* with the #9 shirt usually given to the centre-forward in the top 3, which has then lived on in that an out-and-out striker (think Klose or Gomez) is usually referred to as a #9.

A false 9 would be when (like Spain against France) you deploy a player like Busquets in that position, but rather than spending all his time in the forward position, he'll often fall back far enough to function as an attacking midfielder or a deep-lying forward.

The #10 is a special case - basically it's often (but far from always) given to the most creative player in a team, following the precedent of it being worn by players such as Maradona or current UEFA president Michael Platini (who scored a ridiculous amount of goals for a midfielder for both Juventus and France).

Hope that clears it up a bit.

*invented by Arsenal manager Herbert Chapman

Grand Lodge

Thanks!

(Now I'm off to watch the game.)


On the subject of van Persie, I'm guessing that what Wenger means is that he's able to both play as a traditional #9 striker, but also able to fulfil the role of a secondary forward in a 2-man attack by functioning as the player who sets up chances for another forward.

In a 4-4-2, you usually either have one player who functions as a target player (often an Andy Carrol type), receiving balls and either holding it up for the rest of the team to get into an attacking position or flicking it on to his strike-partner (usually a really fast, tricky player á la Messi) or out to the wingers who can then hit crosses into the box;

or one player who drops deep, takes the ball and sets up his partner (unless he's one of those crazy-skilled players like Maradona or Messi who might just decide to run straight through the opposition side and score on their own) - this would be the kind of role I'm thinking Wenger sees van Persie also being able to play.

For a much more clear description of player-roles - check the Wikipedia page


Well, the game is interesting so far, with Portugal stronger than expected, and Spain not finding their rhythm. Still, 0-0 is less than expected.


Too bad for Portugal, I had wished they would reach the final.

Grand Lodge

Yes, BUT, did Portugal look that good because Spain had much less rest? What kind of shape will Italy be in for Germany?

Grand Lodge

Okay, regarding positions...

Both Spain and Portugal started with a 4-3-3 (according to Michael Ballach who is the announcer for our ESPN here in the US).

But at half-time Ballach said one of the teams (I think Spain) had a "Number 9" position out there implying the other team didn't.

I guess I just don't have enough understanding of what is happening during the game to distinguish between this-and-that position. I will gain the understanding eventually, I'm sure.

Grand Lodge

Anybody else notice that when Spain played the 4-3-3 Portugal looked just as good as they did.... BUT, in the 60th minute when Fabregas came on and they played the 4-6-0 Spain started looking a WHOLE lot better than Portugal?

(Of course, the point others make about still not scoring stands -- Spain looked lots better but didn't score.)

Sovereign Court

Flooding the midfield means Spain control the ball, which makes them look fantastic. However, it shrinks the (effective) pitch and leaves them passing about in neat little triangles.

Spain looked best in extra time when the tired Portugese (both the time since last match, and the fact that defending is harder work than attacking) were faced with a Spanish team who were playing at a higher tempo because they wanted to score and avoid the risk of penalties.

Thinking tactically, if you see the game as competitions between attackers and defenders (flipping over depending on who has got the ball) then you should look at the defender's job as being to pressure a player and reduce his options, tackling is secondary to that.
Attacking players are looking for the space in which to act and they create that space with pace and accurate passing. Once they have the space they can strike the ball, whether that be space out wide to put a cross in or space in the box from which they can shoot.

Italy against England is a good example if we look at Italy on the attack.
Italy used accurate passing, revolving around Pirlo, to move the ball around in midfield (they also had more men in midfield which helped them to dominate possession there). They also used pace out wide on the right wing (forgotten the Italian player's name).

The English defenders kept a really strong set of two lines of four players across the pitch (and less than four and the line is too fractured) to limit space between the halfway-line and the edge of the box. Sometimes, because of tracking individual players a player will end up out of position but as long as someone else in his team has shifted to cover the gap before the opposition can exploit it the defending team will still have two lines of four. This is why England held on for a draw (although a better team would have beaten England because their defenders are not astute enough to maintain a strong 'shape' (two lines of four) and pressurise a top-class player. The Italians also 'shrank' the midfield by passing in a small area; England defenders were sucked in to that area (left-hand side) to make space for the right-sided fast player.

There was a famous conversation after Eric Cantona had led a training session at Manchester United once: it was a session based upon one-touch movement and passing.
Player 1: "What's the point, we've been doing this for ages and we're all back in the same place."
Cantona: "Yes, you are, but the defenders are not!"

Incidentally, it is received wisdom that your best penalty takers should go third and fourth: I have no idea why Ronaldo was waiting until the end.


Scoring the deciding penalty makes you the hero?

Grand Lodge

No -- attempting the final penalty lets you be a coward during the earlier kicks.


AARGH! Germany, what was that? Losing against Italy was not on the agenda... I doubt that they can turn the game about and score at least twice without Italy scoring again.

EDIT: Turned off the TV fifteen minutes before the end of the game - could not stand to see that disaster to the bitter end...

Sovereign Court

Sympathy to the Germans but as a neutral, that was a cracking game.

Two great goals from Italy, lots of stalwart defending, some chances for a third goal in the final quarter. Meanhwile, lots of good skill from Germany but no great strikes.


Stehbehil, it could have been worse! All that offensive playing made for some nasty counter attacks... too bad Di Natale was wearing slippers and not boots.

If Spain plays again like they did against Portugal, this will make for an interesting final.

Grand Lodge

Well, I guess Italy fared well with only 72 hours rest!

Germany got hustled; it wasn't even a game. Ozil was the only German out there even trying (well, Reus when he came on). And Schweinsteiger showed he's overrated -- I thought it all along.

Grand Lodge

You heard it here first, folks -- Fabregas gets Hat Trick on Buffon to win Europe!

Sovereign Court

Buffon had one of his worst games tonight, against Germany, and still kept a clean sheet. Nobody is going to get a hat-trick against him.

Grand Lodge

Step one: Fabregas gets a Hat Trick against one of the four best goalies in the world.

Step two: Fabregas comes to the realization that he didn't want to leave Arsenal for his childhood-favorite team.

Step three: Fabregas comes back to Arsenal for half the money so we can afford him.

Step four: Arsenal wins all the titles this year proving that we are the greatest to all the misled saps who think otherwise.

Step five: I am named king of the world and get a chance to go see a couple Arsenal games even though they're across The Pond.

Step six: I buy WotC and the D&D IP and give it to Paizo so we can start calling our game by its true name again -- and get GH back.

Trust me.

It.

Will.

All.

Happen.

Trust me.


argh,

congratulations Italia,

you where the better team


W E Ray wrote:

Well, I guess Italy fared well with only 72 hours rest!

Germany got hustled; it wasn't even a game. Ozil was the only German out there even trying (well, Reus when he came on). And Schweinsteiger showed he's overrated -- I thought it all along.

In my opinion Khedira and Boateng where the only germans really doing good,

and Klose was at least fighting

Schweinsteiger is not overrated, he just had the worst season in his career
broken feet, torn ligament, two lost finals, he was at maybe 70% of his skills and should had get some rest

Grand Lodge

Yeah, I did see Khedira have a solid game -- but I thought Ozil was very strong (maybe I'm wrong).

I really like Boateng but I thought he was playing the whole tourney out of position, at RB instead of CB, and didn't think he looked that good at all. Excusable, certainly, because he was slightly out of position, but still weak. (again, maybe I'm wrong.)

Mostly I was looking at Podolski during the German games, for obvious reasons, and I was left quite disappointed in his play. (Hopefully our other signing this summer, Olivier Giroud, will perform well for us if Podolski turns out to be overrated.)

Ah, I didn't know Schweinsteiger had been injured. I only learned who he was in January after Group play in the Champions' League was completed and (remember I'm new) so his 2012 Champions' League games were the first I ever saw of him -- and I never really thought he was that great. But if he was coming off injury that explains it.

Grand Lodge

D&D or the Final?

This Sunday our gaming group is scheduled to whoop up on Iggwilv, free and then Banish Fraz Urb'Lu, break the Witch Queen's hold over Perrenland and finish cleaning out the Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth.

That means I'm gonna only be watching the game out of the corner of my eye -- with no volume.

What would you choose, playing D&D or watching two other countries play in the Final?

The Exchange

GeraintElberion wrote:

There's a difference between human fallibility and moral character.

And nobody cheated: the whole reason they picked her up (rather than team-mates) is to keep it all within the rules.

My point was that his fallibility increased the drama and thrill of the match. Had he ruled correctly, a pinch runner would have been used, resulting in less drama/thrills.

Silver Crusade

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W E Ray wrote:

D&D or the Final?

This Sunday our gaming group is scheduled to whoop up on Iggwilv, free and then Banish Fraz Urb'Lu, break the Witch Queen's hold over Perrenland and finish cleaning out the Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth.

That means I'm gonna only be watching the game out of the corner of my eye -- with no volume.

What would you choose, playing D&D or watching two other countries play in the Final?

D&D


Yes!!! <european champions again!!!!

My last post was lost as Im a bit drunk and pushed cancel button :( but I just want to say here in Spain there are lot of peolple in the streets drinking and celebrating at 2 am

Yo soy español ¿a qué quieres que te gane? ;)


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congratulations Spain

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

So, here's what we did Sunday, a few hours before -- during -- and several hours after the game, and without stopping to rest for 8 hrs to get back spells...

Keep in mind we are seven 15th Lvl PCs with uber Ability Scores, enough that we're probably closer to APL 17.

1} Gargantuan Red Dragon, I think CR 19 or 20 (We've been after this bastard for sessions)

2} 8 Lacedons (last time we were in that water we fought a CR19 Shoggoth so we were really scared about what might pop out of that water the whole time)

3} 19th Lvl H-Elf Magus; 18th Lvl Human Witch; 2 CR 7 Succubi

4} 3 Cockatrices

5} 8 CR8 Huge flying monsters (Shantaks);
1 rd in: CR18 Alu Fiend Assassin 13; CR18 Cambion Ftr/Rog; CR18 Gargoyle Bbn13;
2 rds in: 2 CR14 Nalfeshnee (Type 4 Demons); 19th Lvl H-Orc Bbn; 19th Lvl Drow Wiz; 19th Lvl 2-weapon Ftr

By the end 4 PCs were dead, 2 others had at least once dropped below 0 HP. At the very end there were just a couple PCs (really hurting) vs the Cambion & Alu Fiend (really hurting).

There were a few times during the fight where we were discussing exit strategies w/ Plane Shift or Teleport.

Man that was a great fight.

And we won.

Our two surviving PCs put all the dead bodies in our Bags of Holding and are teleporting out to buy some Raise Deads & Gr Restorations.

Tonight we go back, fully rested & restored, and (now at 16th Lvl), will take on Iggwil'vs main guardians -- as far as we know, 2 Mariliths, 2 Nalfeshnee & 2 Glabrezu. But we also know we still have to deal with 3 more Witches, a couple 17 or 18th Lvl ones and a 20th Lvl one.

And during ALL that -- I STILL managed to keep an eye on the football game and saw all of Spain's goals as they happened!

PS: I'm convinced it was those 3 Cockatrices that made it just enough to push us from 15th to 16th Level.

The Exchange

First off, sorry for my long absense, work took it's toll and I haven't had much free time other than to spend with my family. But as to your question:

W E Ray wrote:

@ Wormy's Queue,

I'm curious as to how folks in particular -- and you specifically -- feel about their star players leaving for bigger Clubs.

As a Borussia Dortmund fan, do you Hate Tomas Rosicky for leaving for Arsenal or do you understand and support him?

It depends a bit on the situation; if I remember right, Rosicky was the silver platter Dortmund had to sell at a time when the club was near to bankruptcy due to heavy mismanagement. So even if he wanted to leave the club, I can hardly blame him.

It's a bit harder when players talk bout how proud they are to play for their team just to leave it at the next opportunity, which Nuri Sahin did just before leaving for Madrid (I seem to remember Tiérry Henry talking the same way about never leaving Arsenal and then suddenly, he was gone); but even then, who could blame him for wanting to be part of the second-best team in the world. .

So in both cases, while I was sad to see them go, I still can appreciate what they did for Dortmund and don't mind them leaving at all. Though I think that both of them probably will have second thoughts when we win next years Champions League xD

Grand Lodge

Yeah, losing Nasri & Fabregas last year was the first time it happened for me -- still being a new fan.

Losing Robin van Persie this summer will be harder, I think.

(Technically he hasn't left but if we're smart we'll "sell" him to Juventus this month rather than lose him next year for nothing.)

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