Goblin Squad Member
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You should probably read through their actual model plan.
1: There's a free to play version.
2: Skill based system. So as you play and use your skills, you advance those skills. Skill based systems tend to cater just as much towards those with less play time, because you can still get into a game and work on your skills.
3: You can definitely spend a few hours a week playing an MMO and get to the end game. I've done that in at least 5 different MMOs I've played. Will you get to the end first? No. Just like you won't in any RPG. But you'll get there.
You should expand your mind a bit here. Step out of your preconceived notions of what an MMO is. There's more than one type. And from the sounds of it, Paizo/GW is take the proper direction.
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Begun, this troll war has.
Successful Troll is merely neutral observer.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I can hit 85 in WoW in less time than it takes to hit the soft level cap in Skyrim. You don't need to dedicate enormous chunks of time in order to play an MMO. Sure, if you want to participate in the hardcore endgame content of some MMOs you will need to put in some real time and energy, but that doesn't mean you can't play the rest of the game if you don't have that time to spare.
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Well, if you were talking about me, it was unintentional on my part. I think many people would be interested in a fantasy economic simulation, especially given the sandbox nature that it looks like this game will have. And to run a shop, group of shops, caravan, trader's guild, or mine would not take an exorbitant amount of time.
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No, not you either Sean. More a metacommentary on how the forum is about to awash in people arguing about the game. It's just a powder keg.
I sympathize with the OP, since I haven't really had time to even play my console games. I may check out PFO the same way I check out my Facebook games. Once a day for about twenty minutes.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am coming at this as an anti-mmo person. What has killed our hobby? (and yes I know it isn't dead, but nowhere where it was in the 80's and 90's) The mmo has.
No.
This is lazy thinking, and should be discouraged at every opportunity.
First, D&D and tabletop gaming was in decline well before the widespread popularity of MMOs. You can attribute it to video games, but that's still lazy.
The primary responsibility for a decline in tabletop RPGs lies with the industry and the community, and their collective unwillingness to move the hobby forward and create experiences for players that are more compelling than the other options out there.
Kids have picked up these mindless video games and find they don't have to find other to play with, think of anything creative, or even use their imagination at all.
This is just elitist drivel.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Pathfinder does deserve an RPG title at some point in the future, but as an MMORPG player myself hailing from the days of Ultima Online - I've never been so psyched for an MMO.
I am a huge fan of Pathfinder, yet am coming here primarily as an MMORPG player than a PnP player and understand people taking issue with MMO's in general. People must realise however, especially the majority who have not played true sandbox environments which were directly influenced by early RPG titles and PnP itself (Ultima Online >.<) that World of Warcraft and other mainstream titles of today are not relevant to what is in creation here.
Be excited.
About people being afraid that it will steal people from their PnP games is not nice I think.
It is like depriving us from our fun just because you want your fun and that doesn't make sense.
If the people like to play the computer game...they will do that...if they don't...they'll play the PnP.
You can't say that there are so many MMO's out there because REALLY there is no one good! There is no MMO that fits us hardcore RPG gamers.
Another plague is all the single player games....I mean what self-respective RPG players would play thoose games where you have NO interaction with real people...I think that is sick...but that is the essense of casual gaming and that is what most people want...
I want a hardcore muliplayer RPG...
I kind of felt the same way.
Just the other day on reddit I was discussing a Pathfinder CRPG. They general idea is that the IP was too small to warrent huge sales and that it probably wouldn't happen. Then we fantasized about a perfect MMO...
So strange to see that (looking at the dates) 5 days later Pathfinder Online gets announced.
I don't know how i feel to be honest. I played WoW for 4 months before I realized how much money I was pumping into the game and how much time it was soaking up from me.
A pathfinder mmo could be fun. I might check it out F2P or not. But given how much time these games can absorb, im not sure id want to do it. The only way I could see it working (again this is for me, and i know you cant please everyone) is if it was like Guild Wars or the upcomming Guild Wars 2.
No monthly fees, but it avoids the pit falls of F2P.
In a perfect world, a Pathfinder game would basically be like those old Goldbox D&D games but much sexier and maybe running some of those amazing adventure paths along with the full PF rule set.
I can understand the MMO approach somewhat- just the fit seems... off. The MMO market place is pretty packed to the t~%#.
I trust you guys though and will follow closely and offer my own 2 coppers when I can.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Agreed. I was a video game player long before I was a D&D player, and much of what inspired me to start playing PnP (and what makes me a good role-player) comes from my experiences playing video games.
Ditto. I started playing video games in pre-school, and got into D&D in High School. Guess what inspired me to even start playing?
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Only, I wasn't accusing anyone of trolling, Gary.
Mostly what I was doing was pointing out that you're going to need more (and probably different) moderators once you actually get an honest to god MMO crowd in here, and I'm happy to expand upon that point in a more comprehensive way and not use a sockpuppet.
The standards that you guys and gals hold your forum interactions to is going to require an extensive full-time moderator staff if the game develops any popularity at all. You don't want this place to be like the other corners of the internet, that's fine (and kudos to you). Get even 2 million subscribers, 25% of which are active on a community forum, and you're like to see exactly how tame this community actually is.
My sincere hope is that forum discussions about PO are shunted to an actual PO website/forum, and moderated by mods that are used to the MMO community (which is not the Pathfinder community), and soon. That's for everybody's sanity.
I love and respect you guys. I'm just pointing out that the forum standards here at Paizo.com aren't going to work for your average prepubescent MMO forum denizen. I think it's a valid point, and I think we might be seeing a little bit of it already. If anyone can change the way MMO communities interact, it's Paizo... but I hope you go into it with a plan. And I definitely hope you realize I'm not taking a swing at you or Ross or anyone at Paizo.
Sorry for the derail. Back to your regularly scheduled anti-MMO discussion.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Only, I wasn't accusing anyone of trolling, Gary.
Mostly what I was doing was pointing out that you're going to need more (and probably different) moderators once you actually get an honest to god MMO crowd in here, and I'm happy to expand upon that point in a more comprehensive way and not use a sockpuppet.
The standards that you guys and gals hold your forum interactions to is going to require an extensive full-time moderator staff if the game develops any popularity at all. You don't want this place to be like the other corners of the internet, that's fine (and kudos to you). Get even 2 million subscribers, 25% of which are active on a community forum, and you're like to see exactly how tame this community actually is.
My sincere hope is that forum discussions about PO are shunted to an actual PO website/forum, and moderated by mods that are used to the MMO community (which is not the Pathfinder community), and soon. That's for everybody's sanity.
I expect that PFO will get its own website once the project gets rolling (separate from even the Goblinworks website) and will have its own community features (like forums).
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Goblin Squad Member
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I've refrained from making a post on this for the last few days. Forums for Sandbox MMO games which are currently under product are, well, places which need severe moderation.
We're just starting to see the beginnings of things heading south and this is only with a large handful of active posters.
The sooner Goblinworks launch their own forums and can take on some moderators the better.
Goblinworks Founder
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I really don't understand the need for all the segregation and hostility.
We are all gamers and there is a very good chance that every one on these message boards are from the same pen and paper background.
I can understand what Osopolare is saying. Games like Neverwinter Nights and Dragons Age (not the sequels)are great interpretations of the RPGs we all know and love. I personally don't feel that they were anywhere near as good as Troika's Temple of Elemental Evil in terms of converting Pen and Paper to PC, but they are solid games all the same.
I don't find Goblinworks approach to be a bad choice either. A skill-based, Sandbox MMORPG that has themepark elements is probably the best decision they could have made in an attempt to capture the feel of playing in the Pathfinder setting of Golarion. I hope they can pull it off because I would imagine the project is going to be extremely challenging.
Like many people here my first MOG experience was through NWN1 Persistent worlds, I played on the savage coast server for nearly 4 years before being stationed in Iraq. I would play till 4am when I wasn't on shift.
One of the beauties of a sandbox/themepark hybrid is that it very well may capture that same feeling as a persistent world from NWN1, just with more people on the server.
These days I just don't have that much time to spend on games. When I do have time I'd like to be able to take full advantage of what the game has to offer.Paizo has done so much to make gaming fun and doable without tons of prep. An MMO goes the opposite direction.
With a conventional RPG you can spend a few hours a week playing and slowly find your way to the end of the game. With an MMO you'll never get very far that way.
Many of us are in the same situation. The thing with MMO's is that they shouldn't be designed to find your way to the end of the game. They should be designed to provide a virtual persistent world where you can log in and spend time with your friends just as you would with a D&D Session. They will never fully capture the table top experience because your imagination is far more powerful than any processor can handle. What they can do is provide a medium for you to use to escape the real world for a while and enjoy playing a character in a fantasy world.
The Sandbox will allow us to freely roam in a persistent world.
The Themepark Elements will give us quests and objectives (dungeons) to do.
The Skill system should hopefully mean that you wont be restricted by level or gear to explore or adventure with your friends who have more playtime.
These three things work together to make it a far more enjoyable experience than your standard MMO with endgame and gear treadmills.
...if they can pull it off.
So while I can understand where you are coming from and I know the message boards can look heated sometimes, I ask that you keep an eye on things and possibly give it a chance when it does come out. You might be surprised.
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Yeah, but by agreeing to use Paizo's forums, you've agreed to abide by their rules. And one of those rules involves not being rude and insulting.
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Goblin Squad Member
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True freedom of speach should be allowed in ALL forms of speech...
So, it's perfectly fine for some punks to come up to the dinner table while you're eating a family dinner with your 6 year old daughter and your grandmother and spout off a string of curses and vile descriptions that would make a drunken sailor blush?
Nah, moderated forums are always better than unmoderated forums. It's one of the prerequisites of having meaningful conversations.
Senior Software Developer
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If you want to have a conversation about our moderation policies, please do it in the website feedback forum. For now, Paizo is running the Pathfinder Online forum, and we have our own traditions and approach that work for us. If Goblinworks wants to go down the path of maximum free speech for all participants, that'll be their choice, though I doubt they will because the purpose of a company's forums is to provide a space for conversation and support for their own products, not a venue for free speech for all comers. It's easy enough to start your own blog and nobody will tell you what you can or cannot say in your own space.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Most people never fully grasp what truely ruined an MMO for them. You can point at a myriad of issues, but the true culprit is there in front of you.
Immortality.
This is a great analysis, and I do think that permadeath would add a feeling of danger and caution to things. But you missed one essential points: If you die in a tabletop RPG, you don't start over from scratch.
You create a new character that is close to the power level of the party, and you keep going. Depending on the GM, you might have to do something different, or you might be able to recreate the same character with a different skin, but you join back in at a higher level than starting fresh. You might even come back more powerful, because you can purchase exactly the magic items you want, rather than having a mix of what you found and bought, and because you can get feat/ability combos which take a few levels to actually reach full power without having to suffer for the in-between levels.
If you could create a new character at the same level as the last one died at every time you died, it would take a lot of the punch out of MMO permadeath. Even if you lost some XP or a level, it still wouldn't be enough to cause the effect you're looking for. Sure, you might lose the great weapon you found along the way, but your party members might be able to save it for your new character. Even if they can't, the content would need to be balanced so a new higher-level character isn't immediately killed again, so you'd either be able to pick a decent weapon or the great one just lets you trivialize the content.
There's actually one class of game which does have permanent death: Roguelikes. And even there, where it's a core part of the gameplay, there's lots of people who savescum to get unlimited chances or play with an "extra lives" mode. Roguelikes also depend very heavily on the turn-based nature of their system, where you can take as long as you want to plan out each move, and you don't have other players who might find it fun to swarm your near-endgame character with hundreds of low level characters just for the sake of ruining your fun.
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Goblin Squad Member
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well, i have experienced how much fun an mmo can be.
how much that experience is moving away from a traditional rpg single player game is kinda your own choice.
how much time you invest in the game is your choice aswell.
the only thing that is really not in your hands is the subscription, but that is already settled with a f2p option.
so what exactly would keep you from playing the game?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Re: Perma-death, and starting a new character already "at level".
It would be really cool, IMO, if our accounts gained "levels" over time, just like our characters did, and that a sufficiently high level account could create new characters already leveled up wit a specific skill set.
Re: Perma-death, and starting a new character already "at level".
It would be really cool, IMO, if our accounts gained "levels" over time, just like our characters did, and that a sufficiently high level account could create new characters already leveled up wit a specific skill set.
yes! i want it! so if i want to change my PG, i don't have to wait 2.5 years before i can join my friends group!
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Re: Perma-death, and starting a new character already "at level".
It would be really cool, IMO, if our accounts gained "levels" over time, just like our characters did, and that a sufficiently high level account could create new characters already leveled up wit a specific skill set.
I think it would suck to try to get new people to join a MMO where established players can create higher leveled characters at will, especially if there was a mechanism for permanent death. It works in tabletop because it is adjudicated by everyone involved, a feature that is slightly difficult to include when there are thousands of players.
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...No one cares that you are all purpled/fabled out. It's to damn easy for even a 10 year old to obtain that status. Take away your GameBox Immortality and obtain such trophies and I will be impressed. I would even DESIRE to hear your tales of adventures.
finally someone who understands. though this is what ive being trying to say in another thread, oh well at least im not alone on the internet.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Permadeath is not going to happen in a MMO where death is the common method to measure success/failure (i.e. all of them).
Also I fail to see how such a feature adds to the fun of the game. From my experience if the price is to high, noone risks it if he has the choice and if he hasn't he stops playing.
Also MMOs are played by a majority of archievers, who cares if some of these want to show off with their newest epic shiny? Objecting to such a behavior in am MMO tells much about oneself.
Finally, as a late reply to the OP:
YES, YES, YES GoWo knows that you will not play their game. Also probably 20.000.000 WoW fans will not do so too as well as 1.000.000.000 chinese people.
PFO will be a game that appeals to a minority of players - a minority that also is likely very loyal and capable of forming a great community.
I like that more than a "smash hit" like SW:TOR that starts crowded like hell and likely ends up with half empty servers as soon as Blizzard releases Kung Fu Panda WoW or Diablo III (if that happens at all).
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Goblin Squad Member
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I've read and comprehended the various posts on permadeath across many of these PFO threads. Don't understand the allure, tho. I played second edition with a DM long ago who made you role a 1rst L character when you couldn't get raised somehow, no matter how high the party was; you'd go up pretty fast at first, and stay in the back and not do anything. I DM PF now and if that happens I let them come back with a new character one level lower with an item limit. I don't think any of this has relevance to MMOs. No one likes to die, being interrupted while I'm doing something, running back to my husk and maybe losing my inventory seems like enough suck to me. Is the pro-permadeath argument 'So I'm dead, this doesn't suck enough! I demand to start over completely in the newbie area! Perhaps this time I will not cover myself with shame!' My friends who play WOW have plenty of stories about different ways they died; my nephew who plays first person shooters online howls into the headphones every time his guy goes down. Time is the real world coinage we spend on our MMO characters, whether we have a little or a lot, and losing that matters. And PFO is aiming for 120,000 players eventually. This is a business that needs to make money. If there was a permadeath mechanic that ain't gonna attract that many people. The only similiar thing I could see is a character-death cooldown, say 10 or 15 deaths a day or hour or whatever and then you come back at your last soulstone.
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Goblin Squad Member
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while i do understand the fascination with perma death, i don't see myself playing an mmo that is actually using it.
khanquers post is full of passion and i wholeheartedly agree with almost everything he wrote.
that you can loose everything you put time and effort in (friendship, tales, achievements,) with a single misstep from a high mountain, does not sound like a good idea though.
i'm not very experienced with mmo's, i played a few though.
started with WoW, waited for warhammer online, played age of conan, beta tested RiFt, enjoyed DCUO (for a while) and play Swtor.
right now mmos bore me to death. somehow i thought SwTor would change that with a compelling story. How wrong i was, i see myself abusing the space button to skip over most of the conversations. after that i get the joy of moving out and repeating the same old combat over and over again until i finish my quests, then it's back to the talkative guy for some xp and loot.
i feel like i'm stuck trying to re-creat the whole sense of wonder and joy i had when i played my first mmo and everything was new and great. i'm pretty sure i'm not the only one.
the first time you found something, that you had no idea what it was for. you had to figure it out yourself or get lucky and find someone who knew. there was no huge database site where you could look up EVERYTHING.
from what i heard so far, PFO could be something new and refreshing.
at least i hope so.
To me it seems a strange outlook, especially coming from someone who's apparently acquainted with the open ended nature of tabletop RPGs. I'm by no means judging and really hope you don't take offense as I honestly mean none, it's just something I openly admit I don't fully understand.
Even if I was only going to be logging in for an hour or two every other day (apparently into a game with a skill advancement system similar to EVE, in which skills progress based on time, even when offline), I'd prefer that my play took place in a persistant online world I could continually visit and advance in during my free time, rather than something I'm only playing because I know it has a distinct end and finish line (single player rpgs).
I personally can't imagine, with my love of RPGs in all shapes and sizes, *only* wanting to play one that I could finish in a timely fashion - it strikes me as counter intuitive. I would clearly want that experience to carry on for as long as possible.
The notion that you have to put in so many hours before you can actually have fun in any MMO is an outright fallacy, especially in a sandbox oriented game world. I'm aware that WoW is a popular MMO and may very well be exactly what comes to mind when people hear 'MMO', but it's by no means the only type that has ever existed or in existance. Not all MMO's are a linear progression grind which only really begin at max level.
In the end it's your choice obviously, I would just hate for someone to miss out on something they might enjoy based potentially on misinformation or a misunderstanding. I can understand to some extent feeling obliged to level/advance at a certain speed in themeparks such as WoW, but in a sandbox setting, it doesn't really make sense. I guess it's a matter of perspective.
Everyone's entitled to their opinions, and certain people naturally have different tastes, I just can't make sense of only wanting to play games that have distinct finish lines when instead I could have an endless adventure.
Regardless, I'm ecstatic that Pathfinder will be an MMO and I'm also relieved to hear it will break from the 'clone' mold. I can't wait to hear more.
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I'm not for permadeath just for a strong penalty like exp loss or something similer to the penalties associated with rez spells. With the exception of reincarnation, all rez spells are the same except for how much of a penalty the now living person has from being dead. If all rez spells no longer have penalties... or penalties greater then normal death, what makes a high lvl rez spell better then a low level one?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm not for permadeath just for a strong penalty like exp loss or something similer to the penalties associated with rez spells. With the exception of reincarnation, all rez spells are the same except for how much of a penalty the now living person has from being dead. If all rez spells no longer have penalties... or penalties greater then normal death, what makes a high lvl rez spell better then a low level one?
Possibly there will be only 1 res spell, possibly cost, possibly range/cast time/HP restored. We know nothing of the spell system, so we can't say anything about it either way.
In general personal progress and allience progress are seperate entities. Wealth/gear etc... tend to come on the team side, levels/skills fall into the personal side in games. When you penalize one side via progress in the other, it makes people avoid it until they are happy with their current side, if it degrades it even at the higher points, then it cuts it even worse out.
An XP loss or debt system will make fighting in a war crippling to your personal gain, as a result the majority of people will flat out not want wars, if a side dosn't believe they have a 90% or greater chance of winning, they won't bother fighting it, that would be suicide if you are looking at potential weeks/months of work down the tubes for 15+ deaths or so a day in a major war.
Wealth makes sense to be expending because that is what you are fighting for, resources, which in turn become wealth. There is still a cost/benefit analysis done of whether the war is worth fighting but they are from the same side of the fence and not from seperate ones.
The entire XP system is designed so that you don't have to spend much time worrying about getting your skills/levels, and you can focus more time on getting the best political/financial position.
Personally, I would gave preferred a regular CRPG as well. I think I'm getting burned out after playing MMOs for the past 10 years or so. (City of Heroes, WoW, Rifts, now Star Wars). Im definately tired if the grinding and leveling multiple toons with the same damn quests over and over (with the exception if starting zones). Then there's the end game time sink as well as raid commitments and scheduling, etc.
Star Wars is fun so far but definately my last MMO.
I'm tired. :|