Or you could simply use the holy water, or that wand of magic missiles. Or the fighter's cold iron weapon (and he should really have one by then). Now it being +1 could be a bit of an issue, but that's why he should have an oil, scroll or wand for the caster by now.
At 5th level you've got 10,500 gp worth of stuff. For a fighter I would be expecting a +1 main weapon, as well as a cold iron and silver weapon (possibly mithril if he's desperate for damage) ending with a ranged weapon that's +1 as well, a +1 armor, perhaps a +1 ring and some potions and oils. Excluding the potions and oils he's got 8.5k stuff there, leaving enough room for a wand of magic weapon and a nice stock pile of potions as well as mundane gear.
The shadow has 3 attacks that do 1d8 +1d6 cold -- not a lot of cold there and it is rather possible the cold damage won't be happening.
With the (now) +1 cold iron weapon the fighter can kill the shadow demon only losing out damage to the incorporeal part.
The solution cost under 100 gold pieces as an oil and under 800 gold pieces as a wand which he can continue getting use out of for a while.
And this is ignoring stuff like channeling against alignment, the paladin's now ghost touch weapon that he's smiting with, the bard's abilities that would add in, the magus's... etc.
All in all it's not an overwhelming challenge unless the party goes in willfully unprepared for adventuring.
The wand will struggle to bypass the SR. Cold Iron is a special material and not common at low levels.
DR ignores damage, but that doesn't mean it isn't dealt. It just means it doesn't get taken out of your hit point total while incorporeal halves damage received (as in, half the damage is never received). So if the big guy swings his sword for 30 damage, that is first halved (because half of it never hits) to 15, and then reduced by 10 (because 10 points of damage received can be ignored) to 5.
To look at it another way, DR says that it takes a fixed amount of force to break through your tough hide or overcome your body's natural wound closingness or cause actual damage to your skeletal body or whatever. Incorporeal says that half the force of a blow is never transferred from the weapon to the target. Of the half which is transferred, it still has to get past that natural toughness or regen or boniness or whatever it is.
The rules input really closes the topic.
Though I would probably houserule it otherwise if only to adress the possibility that players themselves might get incorporeal at some point and it should not be that much of a synergy with DR.It does say that DR can be interpreted as a form of body armor. A little problem with that: the creature's incorporeal. It doesn't have a Constitution score. I can't buy the DR as being a physical phenomenon. But yeah, can be argued both ways. I chose my side before I rationalized it. ;)
The wand will struggle to bypass the SR. Cold Iron is a special material and not common at low levels.Or you could simply use the holy water, or that wand of magic missiles. Or the fighter's cold iron weapon (and he should really have one by then). Now it being +1 could be a bit of an issue, but that's why he should have an oil, scroll or wand for the caster by now.
At 5th level you've got 10,500 gp worth of stuff. For a fighter I would be expecting a +1 main weapon, as well as a cold iron and silver weapon (possibly mithril if he's desperate for damage) ending with a ranged weapon that's +1 as well, a +1 armor, perhaps a +1 ring and some potions and oils. Excluding the potions and oils he's got 8.5k stuff there, leaving enough room for a wand of magic weapon and a nice stock pile of potions as well as mundane gear.
The shadow has 3 attacks that do 1d8 +1d6 cold -- not a lot of cold there and it is rather possible the cold damage won't be happening.
With the (now) +1 cold iron weapon the fighter can kill the shadow demon only losing out damage to the incorporeal part.
The solution cost under 100 gold pieces as an oil and under 800 gold pieces as a wand which he can continue getting use out of for a while.
And this is ignoring stuff like channeling against alignment, the paladin's now ghost touch weapon that he's smiting with, the bard's abilities that would add in, the magus's... etc.
All in all it's not an overwhelming challenge unless the party goes in willfully unprepared for adventuring.
The wand of magic weapon never touches the shadow's SR, and while MAGIC cold iron might be rare, common cold iron isn't (and that's where the wand comes in).
Cold Iron costs twice as much as normal, meaning you can get a back-up cold iron longsword for a mere 30gp. It only gets expensive when you start enchanting it. Alchemical Silver is slightly more expensive with a surcharge of 20/90/180 gp for a light/1-H/2-H weapon. So, for 135 gp the fighter can have a backup cold iron longsword and a backup alchemical silver longsword. Then the wand of magic weapon takes care of the +1. That is a total expenditure of 885 gp (750 of which does not count against WBL). Failure to take these basic steps by level 5 is making yourself intentionally unprepared.
The CR system does not assume absolute knowledge of what you will come up against, but it does assume basic preparations. It also assumes a relatively even playing field. In an uneven playing field, the GM should up the CR accordingly (and total ambush from an incorporeal CE outsider with strong DR and SR without any warning that such a thing might be around would be an uneven field).
There are some monsters where this causes issues, because their CR pegs them as being right on the line of gaining a seminal ability (flight, for example, or dimensional anchor) which is specifically tied to a level. I don't think this is one of those situations, though.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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All in all it's not an overwhelming challenge unless the party goes in willfully unprepared for adventuring.
I disagree.
You can argue all day long about what 5th level characters should be prepared for, but that's not the way most of the groups I've been in roll.
Most groups I've GMed build their characters based on the experiences their characters have, and potential threats that they have a bit of forewarning on. If they encounter lots of incorporeal creatures, they prepare for it.
If you have a 5th level party that is in the middle of the jungle, spends the first 5 levels fighting mundane creatures and corporeal undead, they are almost certainly going to be unprepared for this encounter. Particularly if they have a limited number of places where they can gear up.
Wraithstrike under breaking and entering:
Energy Attacks: Energy attacks deal half damage to most objects. Divide the damage by 2 before applying the object's hardness. Some energy types might be particularly effective against certain objects, subject to GM discretion. For example, fire might do full damage against parchment, cloth, and other objects that burn easily. Sonic might do full damage against glass and crystal objects.
It's not great but at least it's a bone.
All in all it's not an overwhelming challenge unless the party goes in willfully unprepared for adventuring.I disagree.
You can argue all day long about what 5th level characters should be prepared for, but that's not the way most of the groups I've been in roll.
Most groups I've GMed build their characters based on the experiences their characters have, and potential threats that they have a bit of forewarning on. If they encounter lots of incorporeal creatures, they prepare for it.
If you have a 5th level party that is in the middle of the jungle, spends the first 5 levels fighting mundane creatures and corporeal undead, they are almost certainly going to be unprepared for this encounter. Particularly if they have a limited number of places where they can gear up.
At fifth level I feel it isn't crazy to expect some of the unexpected have two gauntlets (a cost of under 100 gp for both) and some oils of magic weapon. If you are an archer you have even less excuse honestly since the bow you are using will magic the arrows for you and ammunition is cheap (just keep a quiver or two of each metal type).
Again I'm not saying this should be easy -- just that it shouldn't catch a party so off guard at level 5 that you have nothing to help with.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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At fifth level I feel it isn't crazy to expect some of the unexpected have two gauntlets (a cost of under 100 gp for both) and some oils of magic weapon. If you are an archer you have even less excuse honestly since the bow you are using will magic the arrows for you and ammunition is cheap (just keep a quiver or two of each metal type).
Again I'm not saying this should be easy -- just that it shouldn't catch a party so off guard at level 5 that you have nothing to help with.
The only bit I disagreed on is your comment that they would have to be wilfully unprepared. There is an adventure with a shadow demon encounter in it that sort of comes out of the blue and I know more than one one group was TPKed by it, or nearly so.
The only bit I disagreed on is your comment that they would have to be wilfully unprepared. There is an adventure with a shadow demon encounter in it that sort of comes out of the blue and I know more than one one group was TPKed by it, or nearly so.At fifth level I feel it isn't crazy to expect some of the unexpected have two gauntlets (a cost of under 100 gp for both) and some oils of magic weapon. If you are an archer you have even less excuse honestly since the bow you are using will magic the arrows for you and ammunition is cheap (just keep a quiver or two of each metal type).
Again I'm not saying this should be easy -- just that it shouldn't catch a party so off guard at level 5 that you have nothing to help with.
Well again I will not say the PCs are going to win it every time -- and sometimes the game is rigged (I'll note there are plenty of really badly designed encounters in pathfinder adventure paths, from mechanically incorrect to both over and underpowering -- I know one book ends with a 'boss' that's less fearsome than a horde of orcs, and that's 3/4 of the way through the AP) so sometimes things happen, but by fifth level never having a chance to get anything... it's a bit much for me to go with. Personally I like starting with my gauntlets cold iron and silver even before I begin play if I'm playing a fighter... but I would like to point something out:
We are specifically talking only about the fighter -- a paladin for example will probably own this readily (possibly even having his weapon become ghost touch before smiting it into nothingness), a cleric is going to have several options as will an inquisitor, alchemist, summoner, wizard, sorcerer, witch, and more.
I mean yeah if it's just the fighter sure he's going to die -- but he probably was going to already.
It also depends on when the shadow demon shows up -- first encounter of the day? Well at least you are at full strength... last encounter of the day? Why did your GM be so stupid?
Because honestly -- this comes back on the GM just as much as it does the players.
My end point -- a shadow demon can be a valid challenge for a fifth level party without it being a guaranteed TPK, and a fifth level party should have the tools needed to at least engage the target with a hope of winning.
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Whether or not a warning is given is not factored into CR so that can't really be counted on.
In the CR system no, but a GM prepping an adventure should be counted on to understand some warning should be given. There's no excuse for the GM not looking how a given encounter will interact with the specific group they have, it's one of their job requirements.
--Vrocky Road
Whether or not a warning is given is not factored into CR so that can't really be counted on.In the CR system no, but a GM prepping an adventure should be counted on to understand some warning should be given. There's no excuse for the GM not looking how a given encounter will interact with the specific group they have, it's one of their job requirements.
--Vrocky Road
The CR system assumes that you will only be encountering the monster in an area where it would naturally be and that the terrain will not favor either group disproportionately. If either of these isn't the case, then the GM is encouraged to adjust the CR accordingly. If you are in a shadow demon's natural habitat (THE ABYSS!!!!!) and aren't prepared for DR cold iron or good, then you are willfully unprepared. If you encounter a shadow demon outside of it's natural habitat, then either you should have gotten warning, or the CR should be increased accordingly.
EDIT: "Accordingly" means CR+1, which means that the shadow demon is now an APL+3 encounter for our 5th level friends. An APL+3 encounter is one where a full party wipe is a realistic possibility. In fact, 50% of APL+3 encounters should end in a party wipe.
(I'll note there are plenty of really badly designed encounters in pathfinder adventure paths, from mechanically incorrect to both over and underpowering -- I know one book ends with a 'boss' that's less fearsome than a horde of orcs, and that's 3/4 of the way through the AP)
Out of interest, which encounters are you referring to?
Whether or not a warning is given is not factored into CR so that can't really be counted on.In the CR system no, but a GM prepping an adventure should be counted on to understand some warning should be given. There's no excuse for the GM not looking how a given encounter will interact with the specific group they have, it's one of their job requirements.
--Vrocky Road
The CR system assumes that you will only be encountering the monster in an area where it would naturally be and that the terrain will not favor either group disproportionately. If either of these isn't the case, then the GM is encouraged to adjust the CR accordingly. If you are in a shadow demon's natural habitat (THE ABYSS!!!!!) and aren't prepared for DR cold iron or good, then you are willfully unprepared. If you encounter a shadow demon outside of it's natural habitat, then either you should have gotten warning, or the CR should be increased accordingly.
EDIT: "Accordingly" means CR+1, which means that the shadow demon is now an APL+3 encounter for our 5th level friends. An APL+3 encounter is one where a full party wipe is a realistic possibility. In fact, 50% of APL+3 encounters should end in a party wipe.
So, any outsider encountered on the prime material plane is CR +1? You think they'd mention that in the stat block or something, seeing as the VAST majority of all encounters occur on the prime material plane.
So, any outsider encountered on the prime material plane is CR +1? You think they'd mention that in the stat block or something, seeing as the VAST majority of all encounters occur on the prime material plane.Whether or not a warning is given is not factored into CR so that can't really be counted on.In the CR system no, but a GM prepping an adventure should be counted on to understand some warning should be given. There's no excuse for the GM not looking how a given encounter will interact with the specific group they have, it's one of their job requirements.
--Vrocky Road
The CR system assumes that you will only be encountering the monster in an area where it would naturally be and that the terrain will not favor either group disproportionately. If either of these isn't the case, then the GM is encouraged to adjust the CR accordingly. If you are in a shadow demon's natural habitat (THE ABYSS!!!!!) and aren't prepared for DR cold iron or good, then you are willfully unprepared. If you encounter a shadow demon outside of it's natural habitat, then either you should have gotten warning, or the CR should be increased accordingly.
EDIT: "Accordingly" means CR+1, which means that the shadow demon is now an APL+3 encounter for our 5th level friends. An APL+3 encounter is one where a full party wipe is a realistic possibility. In fact, 50% of APL+3 encounters should end in a party wipe.
Ad Hoc CR Adjustments: While you can adjust a specific monster's CR by advancing it, applying templates, or giving it class levels, you can also adjust an encounter's difficulty by applying ad hoc adjustments to the encounter or creature itself. Listed here are three additional ways you can alter an encounter's difficulty. ...
Unfavorable Terrain for the PCs: Monsters are designed with the assumption that they are encountered in their favored terrain—encountering a water-breathing aboleth in an underwater area does not increase the CR for that encounter, even though none of the PCs breathe water. If, on the other hand, the terrain impacts the encounter significantly (such as an encounter against a creature with blindsight in an area that suppresses all light), you can, at your option, increase the effective XP award as if the encounter's CR were one higher.
Meeting a shadow demon outside The Abyss, where you would expect to find one, and without any indication that there are Shadow Demons running around would be unfavorable terrain for the PCs. They are out of their natural environment, which gives them a previously unaccounted for advantage (being unexpected). If the party has reason to expect them, then this would not be the case.
It is in the realm of GM interpretation, but any outsider encountered in the material plane where:
(1) the party did not have cause to expect that outsider, and
(2) this places the party at a significant disadvantage, and
(3) the disadvantage could have been easily mitigated had the party been expecting that outsider,
yeah, that's CR+1.
(I'll note there are plenty of really badly designed encounters in pathfinder adventure paths, from mechanically incorrect to both over and underpowering -- I know one book ends with a 'boss' that's less fearsome than a horde of orcs, and that's 3/4 of the way through the AP)Out of interest, which encounters are you referring to?
ROTL: Goblin druid primarily, goblins at the bridge kind of -- not horrible but very bad, at level 1~2. Goblin king with the "I'm specifically designed to kill everyone that comes here because I'm given exactly what I'm needing" was pretty poor too. One shot rangers with bane weapons simply reeks of bad form. The 'we are going to all fireball you at the same time' Simulacrum, I like the succubus here though.
LOF: Mister "I'm a Demon in a Cave -- that gets first action and uses confusion on the entire party at level... 3? Also gives everyone constant penalties to everything with no save, and then 20% miss chance. Pagwampis -- SR, DR, shatter, and unluck gives way too much to something on the same tier as the planetouched and Stirge. Kardshain and whoever the final Efreeti was -- both push overs. Wasn't too fond of the 'no matter what we steal the map and you can't stop it' encounter either.
COT: The house fight with the spring attack while vital striking while using bladed scarves monks. Rogues on a roof sneak attacking outside of 30' with ranged weapons with no means of doing so -- same rogues throwing every bead on a necklace of fireball at the same time (exactly same time) -- on the opposite end of the scale the pit fiend from the infernal syndrome, he was seriously less of a threat than his cage and was very poorly thought out. Last fight needed work.
None of this is counting my "we must have at least two extra-dimensional spaces of no escape DOOM in each AP" hate, and the "Choo Choo train of gouda" or "NPC's are special and we'll build stuff just for them that screws the PC's" or my favorite, "Oops this is something the PC should have probably have clues of way back in x but we are only mentioning it now -- just assume the PC's completely missed it" moments.
And Second Darkness -- ALL OF IT. WORSE AP EVER.
Now don't get me wrong -- I seriously really like most of the APs and what not and was happy with the vast major of them. But what I don't like I do not like.
post claiming you should raise CR for creatures outside of their natural habitatHow on earth are you getting "creatures out of their natural habitat means higher CR!" out of that rules quote?
It specifically says that creatures are designed assuming they have favorable terrain, and that if the terrain is especially unfavorable to the PCs, you can give them extra XP. The Abyss is much, much more favorable to the Shadow Demon than the prime material plane is. Thus, no XP bonus is warranted.
Your logic would mean that encountering skrags in the middle of the desert would be +1 CR. After all, who expects the Skrag Inquisition in the middle of the desert, where their regeneration shuts off automatically and they have no way to turn it back on?
Encountering the Shadow Demon on the Prime Material does not place the party at an extreme disadvantage. It's pretty terrain-independent. It's certainly less dangerous there than on its home plane, where magic to bless weapons is hard to cast and all non-chaotic and/or non-evil entities get stacking -2 penalties to all mental ability score checks (such as, say, concentration checks to cast those bless weapon spells...).
Because the fact that the shadow demon is unexpected, in this particular instance, combined with the fact that the party has had no chance to resupply for a great amount of time and so would not have been able to get what, at that time, should be "standard" gear gives the shadow demon an advantage unaccounted for in the rules.
The shadow demon is outside it's favored terrain, AND that provides a novel benefit to the monster. Thus, higher CR.