Oversized shield questions

[thepuregamer]

so if we look at a heavy shield, it is a one handed weapon. Meaning if we grab a large heavy shield, then it is a 2 handed weapon(so you would get a -2 to attack with it). Are there any other rules to consider for a improperly sized shield. IE defensively?

Other side note, would shield master remove the penalty for it being inappropriately sized?(I am leaning against this one. Since shield master seems to be purely referencing removing penalty's while wielding another weapon. IE, the intent is for removing penalty's while twf'ing)

[Starglim]

Armour for a Large creature is not suitable armour for a Medium creature. It's just a random object, no different than trying to defend yourself with a table. The GM can give it statistics, with presumably some drawbacks, as an improvised shield, but is not required to do so.

Since it doesn't count as a proper shield for a Medium character, the character can't have shield proficiency with it and doesn't qualify to use Shield Master.

I agree, though, that it would still be a Large one-handed martial weapon for him.

[Stynkk]

Starglim's got it as far as the armor & weapon rules go. You can use it as an oversized weapon as you see fit.

[thepuregamer]

well actually there are no rules for how the size of armor effects how it works. Checked the equipment section.

Starglim's reasoning makes sense for armor since it is "worn". But shields are wielded/held and thus one could just as easily consider it to work like other things that are wielded(weapons). Throughout the equipment section of the prd, it says armor is worn and shields are used. Further, since most shields already have handedness values, it is pretty easy to figure out what sizes of shields you can wield.

[Starglim]

thepuregamer wrote:

Starglim's reasoning makes sense for armor since it is "worn". But shields are wielded/held and thus one could just as easily consider it to work like other things that are wielded(weapons). Throughout the equipment section of the prd, it says armor is worn and shields are used. Further, since most shields already have handedness values, it is pretty easy to figure out what sizes of shields you can wield.

I'd probably be happy to assume that the progression buckler--light shield--heavy shield--tower shield works similarly to weapon size, increasing ACP by 1 per size step (smaller shields are flimsy, larger shields are extra-thick and both have hand-grips in the wrong size and position).

Clearly that would be a house rule, though. RAW says that a shield for a Medium humanoid creature, barring special construction, is Weight x1, Cost x1 of the values listed in Table 6-6. An object that doesn't fit those specifications, but is allegedly a named type of shield, is not a Medium humanoid's shield. It's some other kind of thing whose stats as a Medium shield are undefined.

A character with Craft (armor) could very likely modify a Large heavy shield into a Medium tower shield, probably counting some fraction of the Large shield's value as raw materials.

[thepuregamer]

starglim wrote:

RAW says that a shield for a Medium humanoid creature, barring special construction, is Weight x1, Cost x1 of the values listed in Table 6-6. An object that doesn't fit those specifications, but is allegedly a named type of shield, is not a Medium humanoid's shield. It's some other kind of thing whose stats as a Medium shield are undefined.

But its stats as a heavy shield are defined. And since a shield is also a weapon, there are already rules for wielding a larger version of it.

A large shield is not undefined even for a medium creature.

[Starglim]

thepuregamer wrote:

starglim wrote:

RAW says that a shield for a Medium humanoid creature, barring special construction, is Weight x1, Cost x1 of the values listed in Table 6-6. An object that doesn't fit those specifications, but is allegedly a named type of shield, is not a Medium humanoid's shield. It's some other kind of thing whose stats as a Medium shield are undefined.

But its stats as a heavy shield are defined.

But as a heavy shield, it's not appropriate for a Medium humanoid.

thepuregamer wrote:

And since a shield is also a weapon, there are already rules for wielding a larger version of it.

I agree that there's no difficulty in using it as a weapon.

[thepuregamer]

technically all one has to do to use a shield is to wield it. Weapon rules provide a way for one to wield a large heavy shield.

[Stynkk]

thepuregamer wrote:

technically all one has to do to use a shield is to wield it. Weapon rules provide a way for one to wield a large heavy shield.

No one is disputing that you can use a large shield as a weapon, however you actually have to strap a shield to your arm to be considered wearing the shield and for it to count towards your AC.

Strapping a large, cumbersome shield that wasn't designed for someone your size you would probably have tower shield-esque penalties at the least.

[Rythandulis]

If you are wearing a large sized medium shield, how would that affect AC? Would it act as a tower shield? I cannot seem to find anything about it. Thoughts please.

[blackbloodtroll]

I figure just upping the armor check penalty by the same size penalty to attacks should be fine.

[Dominigo]

I would think the AC bonus wouldn't really change at all actually. While it doesn't necessarily make sense, consider that all armor, regardless of size, gives the same AC bonus. A chain shirt for a small creature is +4 AC just as a chain shirt for a large creature is +4 AC. The same goes with shields. Small shields and large shields give AC based on type (light, heavy, etc) not size.

[Talonhawke]

Dominigo wrote:

I would think the AC bonus wouldn't really change at all actually. While it doesn't necessarily make sense, consider that all armor, regardless of size, gives the same AC bonus. A chain shirt for a small creature is +4 AC just as a chain shirt for a large creature is +4 AC. The same goes with shields. Small shields and large shields give AC based on type (light, heavy, etc) not size.

Actually tiny or smaller armor is only half bonus.

[Dominigo]

Talonhawke wrote:

Dominigo wrote:

I would think the AC bonus wouldn't really change at all actually. While it doesn't necessarily make sense, consider that all armor, regardless of size, gives the same AC bonus. A chain shirt for a small creature is +4 AC just as a chain shirt for a large creature is +4 AC. The same goes with shields. Small shields and large shields give AC based on type (light, heavy, etc) not size.

Actually tiny or smaller armor is only half bonus.

I was not aware of that. You learn new things every day I guess.

EDIT: I just found that in the Core now that you have mentioned it. None of the other sizes have anything like that attached though, so I think may argument still stands as long as the shields are just getting bigger. :P