RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I am trying to decide on upgrading my studded leather armor to something else.
There's a Mithral shirt (Core page 466) for 1100g that is Max Dex 6, no armor check penalty. First, is it AC 4 -- the Core pdf does not seems to say. Second, is this short upgradeable later to magical (e.g., +1)?
I know darkwood is masterwork and upgradeable, but I don't know if this applies to all special materials in PFS. What is the rule for PFS?
In PFS, I think the current rule is that specific, named items (i.e., ones listed in the Magic Items chapter) can't be upgraded. However, there's been a lot of discussion on that topic and I'm a little fuzzy on the final answer.
However, you can buy mithral stuff just using the rules in the equipment chapter:
Mithral is a very rare silvery, glistening metal that is lighter than steel but just as hard. When worked like steel, it becomes a wonderful material from which to create armor, and is occasionally used for other items as well. Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations. Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light. This decrease does not apply to proficiency in wearing the armor. A character wearing mithral full plate must be proficient in wearing heavy armor to avoid adding the armor's check penalty to all his attack rolls and skill checks that involve moving. Spell failure chances for armors and shields made from mithral are decreased by 10%, maximum Dexterity bonuses are increased by 2, and armor check penalties are decreased by 3 (to a minimum of 0).
An item made from mithral weighs half as much as the same item made from other metals. In the case of weapons, this lighter weight does not change a weapon's size category or the ease with which it can be wielded (whether it is light, one-handed, or two-handed). Items not primarily of metal are not meaningfully affected by being partially made of mithral. (A longsword can be a mithral weapon, while a quarterstaff cannot.) Mithral weapons count as silver for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Weapons or armors fashioned from mithral are always masterwork items as well; the masterwork cost is included in the prices given below.
Mithral has 30 hit points per inch of thickness and hardness 15.
Type of Mithral Item Item Cost Modifier
Light armor +1,000 gp
Medium armor +4,000 gp
Heavy armor +9,000 gp
Shield +1,000 gp
Other items +500 gp/lb.
So you can simply buy a mithral chain shirt for mithral light armor price (1,000gp) plus base item cost (100gp for chain shirt) to get a mithral chain shirt.
Being just a plain old item, you can upgrade as normal per PFS rules - so as soon as you have the money, you can add a +1 enhancement to it. (Note in the above-quoted rules that mithral armor is always considered masterwork.) Then, once you have enough money and Fame, you can upgrade it even further.
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If you are concerned that some GM may say it is not upgradeable, write it down as a "Mithral Chain Shirt". As Jiggy showed, it's the same item at the same price, and is definitely allowed to be enchanted.
The discussion about "named items" is for items that have some enchantment which does not fall under the pricing charts.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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It's definitely enchantable. It's simply a chain shirt made of mithral, so there's no reason why it wouldn't be :)
Just be careful: there are some named items that seem like regular stuff, but aren't. Elven Chain, for instance, is not just an example of mithral chain mail.
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No, Elven Chain is expensive and not as good! :-)
Statwise, elven chain and mithral chainmail are the same -- 20lbs., AC +6, armor check penalty -2, max Dex +4, arcane spell failure 20%. For an extra 1000gp, elven chain is treated as light armor for all purposes, when compared with mithral chainmail which is light for everything but actual proficiency. OTOH, you can upgrade the mithral chainmail, but based on comments from the developers, you can't upgrade the elven chain, which continues to be a lame ruling, IMHO.
Has anyone searched through the various PFRPG books to see if there are any instances of magical elven chain?
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Has anyone searched through the various PFRPG books to see if there are any instances of magical elven chain?
In Adventure Path #17 there is +2 elven chain and +3 moderate fortification elven chain. In AP #18 there is +1 moderate fortification elven chain.
These are published under 3.5 rules, for what it's worth.
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Has anyone searched through the various PFRPG books to see if there are any instances of magical elven chain?
Answering my own question, yes.
- Kingmaker/Sound of a Thousand Screams has a suit of +4 elven chain in one of the treasure hordes
- Second Darkness/A Memory of Darkness has a scattered throughout, 3(!) suits of +2 elven chain, a suit of +3 moderate fortification elven chain, and a suit of +1 glamered elven chain
- Second Darkness/Descent Into Midnight includes a suit of +1 moderate fortification elven chain
These are published under 3.5 rules, for what it's worth.
I don't think that really matters; a precedent was established whereby something called "elven chain" was upgradeable with standard enhancements; that there was also the enhanced elven chain in Kingmaker shows that it is upgradeable...
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Just as a point of reference: Hellknight armor is spelled out as a type of full plate specific to the Hellknight organization. It's masterwork, and has some other advantages:
These distinctive suits of armor are a special type of masterwork full plate that, when worn by a character with levels in the Hellknight prestige class, grants additional effects. Price 2,000 gp Armor Bonus +9 Max Dex +1 Armor Check Penalty –5 Arcane Spell Failure Chance 35% Speed (30 ft.) 20 ft.Weight 50 lbs.
Would you allow someone to pay for a dwoemered suit of Hellknight armor in Pathfinder Society?
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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James, the issue hee is that Hellknight armor is a "named armor" that has specific benefits that come into play when worn by a character trained in its use.
To those people who assert that named armors cannot be improved, I ask about Hellknight armor. If it can't be improved, dwoemered, made out of mithril, or whatnot, then I can't imagine why a Hellknight would want to wear it.
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The current thought on upgrading named armors in PFS is no. You can not upgrade named armors in any way. This is because the named armor have properties which are not stated out as a + bonus and so we do not know what the overall + bonus of the armor is. Without this we can not determine what an upgrade would cost.
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From a core rules' perspective there is a difference between say Celestial Armor and Elvin Chainmail. One is enchanted while the other is not.
The second clearly follows the normal rules for masterwork non-magical armor being able to be enchanted.
The issue, from the core rules, is not 'on the named armor table' but rather 'has special enchantments on it'.
-James
Trimmed, clipped, chopped for space, sorry.
I disagree when it comes to Elven chain. We still don't know how the pricing was arrived at, or if there would be a penalty cost to enchant this item as there is with cold iron. There is no explaination of how Elven chain is created, what allows it to be worn as light armor. Without this understanding, I don't think that you can enchant this armor any more than you can upgrade the enchantment on Celestial Armor.
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Trimmed, clipped, chopped for space, sorry.I disagree when it comes to Elven chain. We still don't know how the pricing was arrived at, or if there would be a penalty cost to enchant this item as there is with cold iron. There is no explaination of how Elven chain is created, what allows it to be worn as light armor. Without this understanding, I don't think that you can enchant this armor any more than you can upgrade the enchantment on Celestial Armor.
From the core rules' point of view:
Elven chain is non-magical, masterwork armor.
It can be enchanted by the core rules. There is no listed penalty on enchanting it, just as there is no listed penalty on enchanting Banded mail, armor made from dragonhide, etc.
The pricing for the non-magical masterwork armor is simply added to the cost of the enchantments per the core rules. It doesn't matter if this non-magical masterwork armor is barding, sized for a large or small creature, etc. The cost for the non-magical materials is fixed and added to the enchantment cost. There is a special restriction on enchanting cold iron weapons, but that is an enchantment cost special.
This is very different from Celestial Armor which is priced at 300gp materials and a special enchantment for the rest.
-James
The problem I have is that we don't have any idea how the armor was changed to allow for the armor to be classed as a light armor. Since there is no way to know how this was done, there is no way to know what it would cost to enchant it. Maybe cold iron WAS used in the manufacture of the armor such that it would cost an extra 2000 gp to enchant it. There is no way to know with this item.
The problem I have is that we don't have any idea how the armor was changed to allow for the armor to be classed as a light armor. Since there is no way to know how this was done, there is no way to know what it would cost to enchant it. Maybe cold iron WAS used in the manufacture of the armor such that it would cost an extra 2000 gp to enchant it. There is no way to know with this item.
Trimmed, clipped, chopped for space, sorry.I disagree when it comes to Elven chain. We still don't know how the pricing was arrived at, or if there would be a penalty cost to enchant this item as there is with cold iron. There is no explaination of how Elven chain is created, what allows it to be worn as light armor. Without this understanding, I don't think that you can enchant this armor any more than you can upgrade the enchantment on Celestial Armor.
From the core rules' point of view:
Elven chain is non-magical, masterwork armor.
It can be enchanted by the core rules. There is no listed penalty on enchanting it, just as there is no listed penalty on enchanting Banded mail, armor made from dragonhide, etc.
The pricing for the non-magical masterwork armor is simply added to the cost of the enchantments per the core rules. It doesn't matter if this non-magical masterwork armor is barding, sized for a large or small creature, etc. The cost for the non-magical materials is fixed and added to the enchantment cost. There is a special restriction on enchanting cold iron weapons, but that is an enchantment cost special.
This is very different from Celestial Armor which is priced at 300gp materials and a special enchantment for the rest.
-James
Iron, Cold: This iron, mined deep underground and known for its effectiveness against demons and fey creatures, is forged at a lower temperature to preserve its delicate properties. Weapons made of cold iron cost twice as much to make as their normal counterparts. Also, adding any magical enhancements to a cold iron weapon increases its price by 2,000 gp. This increase is applied the first time the item is enhanced, not once per ability added.
Items without metal parts cannot be made from cold iron. An arrow could be made of cold iron, but a quarterstaff could not. A double weapon with one cold iron half costs 50% more than normal.
Cold iron has 30 hit points per inch of thickness and hardness 10.
There is no listed cost difference (or benefit apparently) for cold iron armor.
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There is no listed cost difference (or benefit apparently) for cold iron armor.
Of course I wasn't suggesting that cold iron is used in the manufacture of Elven Chain. I was stating that there is no way to know what process the Elves used to manufacture the Elven Chain so there is no way to know how that would affect the cost to enchant this particular type of armor. Cold Iron was just an easy example of something that could affect the cost to enchant Elven Chain. There is (somewhere) the mention that the first time that you enchant Cold Iron there is a 2000gp penalty. Found it, pg 154 of the Core Book.
There is no listed cost difference (or benefit apparently) for cold iron armor.Of course I wasn't suggesting that cold iron is used in the manufacture of Elven Chain. I was stating that there is no way to know what process the Elves used to manufacture the Elven Chain so there is no way to know how that would affect the cost to enchant this particular type of armor. Cold Iron was just an easy example of something that could affect the cost to enchant Elven Chain. There is (somewhere) the mention that the first time that you enchant Cold Iron there is a 2000gp penalty. Found it, pg 154 of the Core Book.
No. THERE IS NO COST DIFFERENCE TO ENCHANT COLD IRON ARMOR!!!!
Yes, you specifically suggested that cold iron might have been used in the manufacture of elven chain.
Maybe cold iron WAS used in the manufacture of the armor such that it would cost an extra 2000 gp to enchant it.
I think you are on the losing side of an argument, and are having trouble digging out.
Any non-magical masterwork item can be enchanted. The cost to enchant anything not specified as cold iron is 2000gp for the first +1. If the item is specified as a cold iron WEAPON, there is an extra 2000gp cost for the first enchantment.
Already enchanted items of a specific type are where the grey area occurs.
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I think you are on the losing side of an argument, and are having trouble digging out.Already enchanted items of a specific type are where the grey area occurs.
I don't know that I am having any trouble with this argument as the powers that be have already stated that no named item may be enhanced. But if you want me to no longer comment on this issue, please explain to me how Elven armor is able to be used as light armor and how that process was priced out please.
I don't know that I am having any trouble with this argument as the powers that be have already stated that no named item may be enhanced. But if you want me to no longer comment on this issue, please explain to me how Elven armor is able to be used as light armor and how that process was priced out please.
I think you are on the losing side of an argument, and are having trouble digging out.Already enchanted items of a specific type are where the grey area occurs.
I don't see a rule to that effect in the Guide.
You don't need my approval to comment. Comment away! Or Not! whatever makes you happier!
How is Elven armor able to be used as light armor? Easy:
Elven Chain
Aura no aura (nonmagical); CL —
Slot armor; Price 5,150 gp; Weight 20 lbs.
DESCRIPTION
This extremely light chainmail is made of very fine mithral links. This armor is treated, in all ways, like light armor, including when determining proficiency. The armor has an arcane spell failure chance of 20%, a maximum Dexterity bonus of +4, and an armor check penalty of –2.
The rules say that it's light armor. Invent whatever fluff you like. "Created by naked slave elf virgins deep in the mines of Moria." works for me.
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Not to weigh in on any side, but I seem to remember a discussion once from developers stating that elven chain mail was supposed to be cut from the PF core rules since it was higher priced than a mithril shirt and just as effective.
So Elven chain is a bit of a left over artifact on 3.5 if my memory serves.
And the important part, how was the price determined?
The rules say that it's light armor. Invent whatever fluff you like. "Created by elf virgins deep in the mines of Moria." works for me.
"dem elf virgins ain't cheap!"
Doesn't matter how the price was determined. Any more than it matters how the price of a long sword versus a short sword is determined. They are all non-enchanted (mundane) items, which can be enchanted.
Creating Magic Armor
To create magic armor, a character needs a heat source and some iron, wood, or leatherworking tools. He also needs a supply of materials, the most obvious being the armor or the pieces of the armor to be assembled. Armor to be made into magic armor must be masterwork armor, and the masterwork cost is added to the base price to determine final market value. Additional magic supply costs for the materials are subsumed in the cost for creating the magic armor—half the base price of the item.
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Not to weigh in on any side, but I seem to remember a discussion once from developers stating that elven chain mail was supposed to be cut from the PF core rules since it was higher priced than a mithril shirt and just as effective.
So Elven chain is a bit of a left over artifact on 3.5 if my memory serves.
Actually it has one property that makes it special, it differs from a mithral chain mail in that it only takes proficiency in light armor to wear without penalty.
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Actually there IS a way for us to know.. we read the item description and find out it's made of mithral.It's non-magical, we can figure out how to enchant it.
-James
Yes...its mithral, but mithral chain mail still requires medium armor proficiency to wear without penalty. Elvin Chain on the other hand is mithral chain mail that only requires light armor proficiency to wear without penalty. How is this switch to light priced and how does it effect the price of additional enhancements? This is what we do not know and why named armors are not allowed to be upgraded further in PFS.
Yes...its mithral, but mithral chain mail still requires medium armor proficiency to wear without penalty. Elvin Chain on the other hand is mithral chain mail that only requires light armor proficiency to wear without penalty. How is this switch to light priced and how does it effect the price of additional enhancements? This is what we do not know and why named armors are not allowed to be upgraded further in PFS.
Actually there IS a way for us to know.. we read the item description and find out it's made of mithral.It's non-magical, we can figure out how to enchant it.
-James
Supporting rules text?
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Supporting rules text?
For which Part?
Mithral Special Material
Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations. Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light. This decrease does not apply to proficiency in wearing the armor. A character wearing mithral full plate must be proficient in wearing heavy armor to avoid adding the armor’s check penalty to all his attack rolls and skill checks that involve moving.
Elven Chain
This extremely light chainmail is made of very fine mithral links. This armor is treated, in all ways, like light armor, including when determining proficiency.
Edit: Or to you mean not being allowed to Enchant it?
All that is based on some old post by Jason, nothing has ever been said by Mark or Hyrum.
Supporting rules text?For which Part?
Mithral Special Material
Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations. Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light. This decrease does not apply to proficiency in wearing the armor. A character wearing mithral full plate must be proficient in wearing heavy armor to avoid adding the armor’s check penalty to all his attack rolls and skill checks that involve moving.Elven Chain
This extremely light chainmail is made of very fine mithral links. This armor is treated, in all ways, like light armor, including when determining proficiency.Edit: Or to you mean not being allowed to Enchant it?
All that is based on some old post by Jason, nothing has ever been said by Mark or Hyrum.
Oops. I should have highlighted.
" why named armors are not allowed to be upgraded further in PFS. "
Yes...its mithral, but mithral chain mail still requires medium armor proficiency to wear without penalty. Elvin Chain on the other hand is mithral chain mail that only requires light armor proficiency to wear without penalty. How is this switch to light priced and how does it effect the price of additional enhancements? This is what we do not know and why named armors are not allowed to be upgraded further in PFS.
Not to weigh in on any side, but I seem to remember a discussion once from developers stating that elven chain mail was supposed to be cut from the PF core rules since it was higher priced than a mithril shirt and just as effective.
So Elven chain is a bit of a left over artifact on 3.5 if my memory serves.
Actually, Elven Chain is a left over from 1st edition, and back in those days only elves, or rarely half-elves, could even get hold of elven chain.