Dexterity is finesse and fine motor skills, but sometimes I see places where dexterity is used as speed and it makes me cringe a little. If anything were to represent speed, I believe it should be strength. Doing something carefully and doing something fast are rather opposite.
So I want to make the following changes:
* Using Strength for Reflex saves
* Limiting AoO from Combat Reflexes to Str Modifier (It still uses Dex as the prerequisite)
* Carrying Capacity is determined by Constitution (I see Constitution as being representative of one's build)
The other thing I wanted to do is have Strength affect one's land speed:
1-7 | -5
8-15 | 0
16-23 | +5
24-29 | +10
If I do use this, what are things I should watch out that would upset balance?
Well, your fighter players will love you.
Anyone else will hate you, especially the rogue.
Oh dear God yes. Rogues already have to have Dex, Int, and Wis (for Perception). If you make them have to use Str to survive traps they fail to disarm, that's just too much!
And for the initiative bonus? And for AC (dodging is related to speed as much as it is to finesse)?
Dexterity is also coordination and how to effectively use your spatial intelligence. A strong man may be slower than a slim one.
And, you know, trying to reduce the complexity of the human body to 3 broad categories is silly for a start. As is rolling perception and willpower into something called "wisdom." You could split dexterity between speed and finesse, as you could split charisma between comeliness and communication. The game is abstract that way, and I don't think you'll ever be able to reflet the complexity of what makes a person into any numerical system.
So, I think that your decision should be exclusively based on game balance.
As for that, yes, I think it would be unbalanced, making almost non-archery dexterity build obsolete, and gimping the rogue even more.
Dexterity is finesse and fine motor skills, but sometimes I see places where dexterity is used as speed and it makes me cringe a little. If anything were to represent speed, I believe it should be strength. Doing something carefully and doing something fast are rather opposite.
The other thing I wanted to do is have Strength affect one's land speed:
1-7 | -5
8-15 | 0
16-23 | +5
24-29 | +10
So champion weightlifters are generally faster at running than an average person?
If anything, it should be a combination.
There's a bunch of guys down the gym that can bench press your house, but they wouldn't ever be seen at a footrace and for a VERY GOOD REASON.
'Speed' should be more about Dex and Con; Str is not that much of an issue, and usually the muscle mass required for a high Str score is more a hinderance thana benefit.
Sprinters tend to be a bit more muscular; good for short spurts over a relatively minor distance - even they aren't bulked athletes. Marathon runners are tiny and agile little things.
The same guys who can bench lift a house that wouldn't be seen at a foot race are would also lose in a sword fight to athlete. They are rare case where all the muscle has been put into lifting. They could probably take hits (equating more to constitution) than make them. Real military guys and athletes are actually quite fast. Strong muscles are fast muscles.
Which is why I said Carrying Capacity should be based on Con (which I'm labeling as Build)
As for Initiative, I plan that to be based off of Wisdom (which could be aptly named Vigilance in this game)
And for AC, I do plan on using the Strength Modifier unless the character has taken Weapon Finesse
I'll figure out something for the Rogues, though.
To put your mind at ease you're correct, sort of. The human body has two types of muscle fibers fast and slow twitch. Slow twitch are for sustained power (classic D&d strength) and fast twitch are for short bursts of movement (classic d&d Dex).
So Dex and strength both have to do with muscles. They just represent different types of muscle fibers,
Does that work for you?
From a game perspective, too much already hinges on strength -- we don't need STR to become the uber-pump-stat. :)
From a "realism" perspective, the game's interpretation of Dex is also motor skills, but reaction time as well -- when you say, "think fast," and lob a baseball at someone's head, it's the High Dex guy to reflexively catch it, not the over-muscled guy.
Good example of these two in action is Bill Harken and Cameron Hicks from the Syfy Series Alphas. Harken can pump his adrenaline at will, which boosts his reflexes a little bit, but mostly his strength; Hicks is a Hyperkinetic, who when he's on is basically a Dex-30 guy. His reaction time is phenomenal compared to Harken; he does somersaults over Harken's back and out a window when Harken charges him in the first episode.
So, for me, Dex is perfectly fine for what it counts.
The same guys who can bench lift a house that wouldn't be seen at a foot race are would also lose in a sword fight to athlete. They are rare case where all the muscle has been put into lifting. They could probably take hits (equating more to constitution) than make them. Real military guys and athletes are actually quite fast. Strong muscles are fast muscles.
Which is why I said Carrying Capacity should be based on Con (which I'm labeling as Build)
As for Initiative, I plan that to be based off of Wisdom (which could be aptly named Vigilance in this game)
And for AC, I do plan on using the Strength Modifier unless the character has taken Weapon Finesse
I'll figure out something for the Rogues, though.
Figure out something for dex, you gave away just about everything. You seem to not be differentiating between different types of speed. I guarantee that a very strong person cannot avoid an attack better than a very agile person.
Real military guys and athletes are actually quite fast.
I AM a 'real military guy and athlete'.
STR as defined in PF is about 'lifting stuff and hitting things hard', and simply implies muscle mass. Endurance and stamina seem more a function of Constitution (the main thing us 'military guys and athletes' worry about).
There is a point when all that muscle mass just plain gets in the way, which is why not too many soldiers run around with a massive body size... and why a lot of militaries operate off the BMI. Too 'bulky' and you wont get in.
Large muscles are also counterproductive in the field for a range of other reasons too.
Which is why I said Carrying Capacity should be based on Con (which I'm labeling as Build)
As for Initiative, I plan that to be based off of Wisdom (which could be aptly named Vigilance in this game)
And for AC, I do plan on using the Strength Modifier unless the character has taken Weapon Finesse
I'll figure out something for the Rogues, though.
Ok, so they loose on AC, initiative, Reflex Saves and Combat reflexes if they choose to get this feat...
Really, it's seems they loose a lot.
Maybe you could rule they get (on only them) to keep their Dex modifier on those IN ADDITION to the other modifiers (say, a max of +1 per Sneak attack dice, for having that scale nicely and for not making a one level dip too good).
You could say that Rogues are trained to use their uncanny finesse and coordination in helping them perform better in those areas.
Seems fair, as you not only have to get them back where they were, but also boost them a little to account for the gains of the other fighting classes.
I still think that if you are going to change around these mechanics, you need to start basing things off multiple stats...
Wis & Dex for init - average the two.
Str & Con for speed?
Con/Str/Wis for HP bonus?
Dunno.
dex·ter·i·ty
noun /dekˈsteritē/
Skill in performing tasks, esp. with the hands
It seems this is where he is coming from, in which case you really do need to change it.
In D&D dexterity is speed. If you need to change it, change the name.
What is a rose by any other name...
I think my definition of strength is a lot different than most.
I'm defining strength as in power, where most of you are defining it as in muscle mass.
Now in terms of Balance...
Rules as written, strength affects:
* Attacking Bonus (with melee weapons)
* Damage Bonus
* Carrying Capacity
* Climbing
* Swimming
(What kind of 'heavy weight lifters' climb and swim!?)
* Prerequisite for Power Attack
Dexterity affects:
* Attacking Bonus (with ranged weapons, or melee with weapon finesse)
* Initiative
* Reflex Save Bonus
* Dodge Bonus
* Acrobatics
* Disable Device
* Escape Artist
* Fly
* Ride
* Sleight of Hand
* Stealth
* Limiter on Combat Reflexes
* Prerequisite for Dodge, Whirlwind attack, Wind Stance, Lightning Stance, Improved Unarmed Strike, Deflect Arrows, Snatch Arrows, Improved Grapple, Greater Grapple, Stunning Fist, Nimble Moves, Acrobatic Moves, Improved Precise Shot, Shot on the Run, Rapid Shot, Many Shot, Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, and Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Dexterity seems to be the one that is trying to cover too many things
I think my definition of strength is a lot different than most.
I'm defining strength as in power, where most of you are defining it as in muscle mass.Now in terms of Balance...
Rules as written, strength affects:
* Attacking Bonus (with melee weapons)
* Damage Bonus
* Carrying Capacity
* Climbing
* Swimming
(What kind of 'heavy weight lifters' climb and swim!?)
* Prerequisite for Power AttackDexterity affects:
* Attacking Bonus (with ranged weapons, or melee with weapon finesse)
* Initiative
* Reflex Save Bonus
* Dodge Bonus
* Acrobatics
* Disable Device
* Escape Artist
* Fly
* Ride
* Sleight of Hand
* Stealth
* Limiter on Combat Reflexes
* Prerequisite for Dodge, Whirlwind attack, Wind Stance, Lightning Stance, Improved Unarmed Strike, Deflect Arrows, Snatch Arrows, Improved Grapple, Greater Grapple, Stunning Fist, Nimble Moves, Acrobatic Moves, Improved Precise Shot, Shot on the Run, Rapid Shot, Many Shot, Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, and Greater Two Weapon FightingDexterity seems to be the one that is trying to cover too many things
Dexterity gains quantity, strength gets quality. Far more characters need strength over dex. While ranged attacks use dex to hit, strength adds to damage. Dexterity is used for a lot, but not a lot of characters use it. The proposed changes would make it virtually unused.
It is a bit strange that climbing and swimming are strength based skills, but running isn't.
It is a bit strange that climbing and swimming are strength based skills, but running isn't.
Running isn't a skill at all, although, short distance chases use opposed dex checks, and long distance use con (stamina).
Dexterity gains quantity, strength gets quality. Far more characters need strength over dex. While ranged attacks use dex to hit, strength adds to damage. Dexterity is used for a lot, but not a lot of characters use it. The proposed changes would make it virtually unused.
I don't think I would agree with that. The majority of classes use spells, of the ones that don't, giving up dexterity would mean not being able to make ranged attacks as well as giving up all the combat feats that use Dexterity as a prerequisite. While Strength may seem more important in the first few levels, one who lacks Dexterity will lose a lot of feats as well as being gimped in many skills. The Weapon Finesse will let one use Dexterity instead of Strength for both attacking and defense.
Leaving it as it is, strength is really only important for those who want to whack their opponent up close.
As to making up the rogues, I'm thinking about just letting them have more rogue talents (One which gives them weapon finesse), maybe one every level instead of every other.
Dexterity gains quantity, strength gets quality. Far more characters need strength over dex. While ranged attacks use dex to hit, strength adds to damage. Dexterity is used for a lot, but not a lot of characters use it. The proposed changes would make it virtually unused.I don't think I would agree with that. The majority of classes use spells, of the ones that don't, giving up dexterity would mean not being able to make ranged attacks as well as giving up all the combat feats that use Dexterity as a prerequisite. While Strength may seem more important in the first few levels, one who lacks Dexterity will lose a lot of feats as well as being gimped in many skills. The Weapon Finesse will let one use Dexterity instead of Strength for both attacking and defense.
Leaving it as it is, strength is really only important for those who want to whack their opponent up close.
As to making up the rogues, I'm thinking about just letting them have more rogue talents (One which gives them weapon finesse), maybe one every level instead of every other.
Any class that relies on physical damage relies on strength at least as much as dex, usually more. Dex 13 gives most of the feats you listed. RAW, dex never adds to damage and weapon finesse means you have ac and hit as opposed to hit and damage. The way you want to go about things, it would be better to divorce stats from physical representations of your character and make them abstract (Attack, Defense, Vitality, Spirit; I have rules if you wish to see them) and use skills to represent your characters strength, speed, agility, etc.
The way you want to go about things, it would be better to divorce stats from physical representations of your character and make them abstract (Attack, Defense, Vitality, Spirit; I have rules if you wish to see them) and use skills to represent your characters strength, speed, agility, etc.
Mutants and Masterminds?
The way you want to go about things, it would be better to divorce stats from physical representations of your character and make them abstract (Attack, Defense, Vitality, Spirit; I have rules if you wish to see them) and use skills to represent your characters strength, speed, agility, etc.Mutants and Masterminds?
Never even seen it.
Never even seen it.
You have attack and defenses separately from ability scores. Even damage is separate from strength unless you gain a special ability that lets you apply strength to damage.
Anyway, I also wanted to use Dexterity to help determine critical hits (Since finesse is about hitting the right spot). I'm not sure how I would go about that part though. Any ideas?
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It is a bit strange that climbing and swimming are strength based skills, but running isn't.Not really
I don't understand.
Notice that they all have roughly similar physiques? More importantly, how none of them are built like power lifters?
But then again, high jumpers and long jumpers are dexterity based.
The physical attributes make very little sense when they get widely separated from each other. Trying to conceptualize a Str 20, Dex 24, Con 8 character is pretty hard. Even a Str 10, Dex 18 character makes little sense - especially if they've got Acrobatics as a class skill. Gymnasts are strong. Look at the arms on those guys. That's a Dexterity based skill?
Running isn't a skill at all, although, short distance chases use opposed dex checks, and long distance use con (stamina).
I know. I'm just saying, its weird that swimming is a strength based skill you can train in and running isn't. I don't really agree with Ion Raven's fixes, but I can see the problem Ion's addressing. The skill system is, conceptually, kind of busted.
In 3.5, jump was a strength skill...
Look at people who do free running like the EMC monkeys, they're built. They aren't huge because all that running around replaces fat with muscle. The examples of runners, climbers, and swimmers have shown people who are extremely toned.
So anyway, I want to give critical hits bonuses and penalties based on one's dexterity:
1-7 | -1
8-15 | 0
16-23 | +1
24-29 | +2
(I'm considering keeping the Dex for AC, but making Str(speed) a prereq for Dodge)
Also, would it be too much to give the rogue a full BAB?
I don't understand.
Sorry let me clarify, you said "It is a bit strange that climbing and swimming are strength based skills, but running isn't."
I took that to mean you were suggesting all three skills were Str based and couldn't see why running was omitted.
You and I are actually apparently very much on the same page with regards some of the activities listed as being "Str" when actually the bulk required for raw strength would be more a hinderance.
If I do go about doing this, I'm totally renaming 'strength' as vigor. I think it will resonate better in people's minds of what I'm using it to represent.
If anything were to represent speed, I believe it should be strength.
* Using Strength for Reflex saves
While I partially agree with the first statement, I'm not sure if I agree that Reflexes is speed either...
'findel
It is a bit strange that climbing and swimming are strength based skills, but running isn't.Running isn't a skill at all, although, short distance chases use opposed dex checks, and long distance use con (stamina).
Frankly, I think strength checks are the way to go rather than Dexterity. Sprinters (like climbers and swimmers) do a lot of strength training and workouts on the weights. They need the muscular power to excel.
Plus, you ever run a 100m sprint next to a hulking 280 lb shotputter? Aside from being drawn into his gravity well, you will have the distinct impression you are running next to a runaway locomotive. And you'll be pretty right.
It is a bit strange that climbing and swimming are strength based skills, but running isn't.Running isn't a skill at all, although, short distance chases use opposed dex checks, and long distance use con (stamina).Frankly, I think strength checks are the way to go rather than Dexterity. Sprinters (like climbers and swimmers) do a lot of strength training and workouts on the weights. They need the muscular power to excel.
Plus, you ever run a 100m sprint next to a hulking 280 lb shotputter? Aside from being drawn into his gravity well, you will have the distinct impression you are running next to a runaway locomotive. And you'll be pretty right.
I could see str, dex, or con for running based on different circumstances.
Small or Medium scale over level terrain(typical road): strengthSmall or Medium scale over rough terrain terrain(typical forset/fields): dexterity
Long scale: constitution, it becomes more of a stamina issue at this point.
If anything were to represent speed, I believe it should be strength.
* Using Strength for Reflex saves
While I partially agree with the first statement, I'm not sure if I agree that Reflexes is speed either...
'findel
^^; Well when you put it like that, really thinking about it, reflexes are less about speed and more about motor control. So if you expand dexterity to mean all motor control and not just fine motor control, reflexes really do make sense under dexterity. >_> my bad.