[Spoilers, possibly] So there are all these NPCs...


Jade Regent

Liberty's Edge

...and I'm not sure what I should be doing with them.

They're all higher level than the PCs, at least to begin with. They've all got levels in PC classes, even. All of them but one are or have been in the past "adventurers," with all the combat capability and aptitude for derring-do that implies.

So how should I fit them into the game around my PCs?

In particular, I'm curious about things like exploration/combat CR, XP awards, and so on. Will the encounters in JR assume one or more of the NPCs will be fighting alongside the PCs? If they do, how should XP awards change, if at all? Should I plan to modify the encounters on the fly based on their presence or absence? Will the AP include indications when/how they level, or will they level at all? I assume at some point the AP will come right out and say, "PCs who take Leadership should consider taking [NPC Whoever] as a cohort!" which would resolve at least some of the issues... but also assumes the players are interested in taking Leadership, which I am loathe to guarantee.


Ok, my response is choked full of spoilers so one tag to hide them all!

Spoiler:

The module has done a good job so far (ok, I've only read up to the exploration of Brinewall before getting distracted by the shiny new Player's Guide) talking about how to handle the NPCs.

Heck, they're not even in part 1. Well they are, but not the exploration of Brinestump swamp bit. So no worries about them soaking up XP there; unless the PCs need help and enlist the halfling.

At Brinwall, with Ameiko in a coma and Sandru with his caravan to tend to, that leaves only Kayo and Shalelu potentially available. Kayo is going to want to watch over Ameiko and Shalelu will want to stay to guard her and the caravan, leaving the PCs to explore the castle. (I'm pretty sure that's even written up along those lines in the module.)

The NPCs are there if the PCs need help in which any of the NPCs can provide as the case requires ... well not Ameiko as she's off in babble-babble land.

From what I've seen, they've thought it through good and the extra firepower at least 4 more character classed individuals brings to the party (pardon my pun) will likely be handled quite well. From glancing over the caravan rules, there's also drivers, guards that can be hired, etc. so it's not going to be just the PCs, Ameiko, Shalelu, Kayo, and Sandru trekking off alone. (Well it can be and James even mentions that somewhere in the start of Part 2.)

As for the XP, well yeah, if they bring in one or more NPC, then those NPCs get their fair cut of the XP and loot. With regards to leveling, that's probably talked about somewhere; at the least, I'd recommend letting the PCs pass them and then have them shadow the PCs' levels just one or two levels behind. That way they don't go *squish* easily in the later parts. Especially Ameiko. It'd be awful to get her to Minkai only to see her squashed like a mosquito.


TL/DR: From what I've read so far, I think they'll be handled just fine.

And the relationship rules intrigue me, that's a neat roleplay twist to toss in.

[A dozen and a half edits later and I think I'm done.]


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

By my admittedly limited time reading the AP so far, I make the following interpretations/observations:
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  • The PCs should be Level 2 by the time they even consider joining up with the NPCs--so the power gap will be smaller than initially suggested.
  • The journey from Sandpoint to Brinewall Castle only involves caravan-level combat unless you want to alter things. The NPCs take a part in that level of combat but don't overshadow the PCs.
  • When they reach Brinewall Castle,
    Spoiler:
    Ameiko is possessed by a kami and lapses into a coma
    . There's one NPC you don't need to deal with.
  • The text says that the other three NPCs are "content to remain at the caravan to guard and protect Ameiko while the PCs head into Brinewall..." That's enough for me, but if you need more motivation to keep the NPCs out of it, then...
  • Sandru had a
    Spoiler:
    traumatic experience as an adventurer while running around with Ameiko
    (see the bottom half of the left column on p53). I believe he's had enough of 'adventuring' in the traditional sense.
  • Koya is old and going through an existential crisis. The text in her entry (p55) says that she becomes "more energetic and excited" "the longer the journey progresses". It's not unreasonable to assume that by the time the heroes reach Brinewall, she's still rather lost in her funk and not sure of her own capabilities.
  • Shalelu is the most problematic of the three--doubly so since she's also the highest-level character. Aside from the stand-ins of "I'll defend Ameiko, you four go find out what's going on inside Brinewall" or "you go in the front door--I'll see if there's another way in", Shalelu could well be motivated to stay with the caravan because she cares for Ameiko. Shalelu's text says she cares for Ameiko "as a younger sister", so that's a pretty powerful tie right there for Shalelu to stay behind.

Hopefully that provides enough options for you to consider--but I'd strongly suggest leaving the NPCs behind at the caravan while the PCs storm Brinewall Castle.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

As folks have posted... the adventure is built to handle the fact that the four significant NPCs are initially higher level than the PCs.


I just thought I'd mention this, as I was amused. I don't consider them spoilers.

If I ever run this adventure path, it would probably be with the same group for whom I ran Rise of the Runelords and Crimson Throne. We had talked about doing Jade Regent as sort of a 'second generation' game set 20 years later with PCs related to the original campaigns, so knowing that Ameiko was involved, I had considered what would need to be done if she were much older, or if she'd have had a daughter by then, etc.

One of the potential players had been long talking about playing a character who was Niska Mvashti's only slightly-less-elderly sister, going adventuring for last hurrah. We were both fairly amused to find Koya as one of the listed NPCs with such a similar concept. Great minds think alike I guess.

Liberty's Edge

James Jacobs wrote:
As folks have posted... the adventure is built to handle the fact that the four significant NPCs are initially higher level than the PCs.

To clarify, I am not so much concerned about Brinewall as I am about the adventures that will follow, if for no other reason than I'm worried about "what excuse are you going to use to keep the NPCs from coming along this time?" starting to show up. Even without that, though, I'd like to know about whether the adventures will include a level progression for the NPCs, and whether the encounters will be or should be modified in the eventuality of an NPC or two helping out.

Even within Brinewall Legacy, in fact, there's

Spoiler:
Kelda Oxgutter, who is roughly the same level as the PCs when they find her and is not unlikely to tag along as they face Nindinzego. In fact, she could even be still with them when they find the Amatatsu Seal, with all that implies for her possible role in the overall campaign.
So my questions about XP and CR still stand.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

As written, the adventure indicates that Kelda has lost interest in the treasure after losing her shieldbrothers to the drake and being captured, and she is likely in poor condition when initially found. While that could be remedied by the PC healer, the adventure assumes that she will go rest up at the caravan campsite rather than accompanying her. At the point that the party is likely to rescue her, only a handful of encounters remain; at that point, it makes considerably more sense for the devs to leave it to the individual GMs to adjust them.

As to the seal--the PCs have a close connection to Ameiko and her closest confidantes, which Kelda lacks. It is quite reasonable in that light for the seal to mark only the PCs as scions, and not Kelda, even if she is present.

Dark Archive

Spoiler:
I Imagine being an Amatatsu scion will play a large part of this. You end the first book with a item that can Resurrection (not raise dead), heal, and other neat curative things. Non-scions can't get that effect. Techincally not even Ameiko.

So Ameiko holds the rock at a safe place (the caravan), and you'ze guys go try and don't die to much.

Dark Archive

spoilers definatly:

Actually thinking about it now...

Should no Amatatsus of pure blood be able to take up that charge, however, the Amatatsu Seal can
invest the right to rule as an Amatatsu in any number of living
humanoid hosts. These Amatatsu scions often experience a series
of visions of the past, present, and possible future.

Why were the players made scions? Ameiko is able to... (unless that kami breaking those laws does something to that whole process as a later plot point...)

I assume the stone only chooses people loyal to the royal family. So 'knighting' others isn't possible. So there are no previous scions I suppose; unless I'm mistaken and the previous guards were scions, at which point resurrection time for more npcs (we have Tsutamu's remains).

Now that I'm thinking about it.. these may come up at my table... any thoughts? I personally don't think raising Tsutamu is a problem, but with something that can rez scions from the last 200 years... And if Ameiko can be targeted why can't her family members...


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
thebwt wrote:
** spoiler omitted **

Well, the text does say that

Spoiler:
resurrection can only be cast both "at the seal's discretion" and "on an Amatatsu scion".

I dare say that Tsutamu was not considered an Amatatsu scion at the time of his death (Lonjiku was still alive back then).

That leaves Lonjiku (presuming his remains are still available back in Sandpoint). Ameiko may well be reluctant to bring her father back and--depending on what was found out about Lonjiku's past during the time of Rise of the Runelords, the PCs may be unwilling to bring him back either. Plus the seal might not want to bring him back. Or Lonjiku himself may be unwilling to return.

As for why the players were made scions--I'm willing to bet the answer is somewhere in between 'in case the players are the kind of folks who don't like being overshadowed by NPCs and will be unwilling to see an NPC crowned instead of them' and 'in case Ameiko dies permanently during the adventure--then at least the PCs have a reason not to throw their hands in the air, turn around and go home'.

Either way, it is an elegant solution to both potential problems.

[edit]

Spoiler:
And Ameiko would be a scion by blood, one would presume. The definition of a scion is a descendant of an important family, so the remaining natural scion would be Ameiko--and possibly her younger sister Amaya in Westcrown, if she exists in your campaign. Lonjiku, Atsuii and Tsuto are all assumed dead (Atsuii before Burnt Offerings even started).

So as well as the PCs that the seal itself designates as scions, Ameiko should be subject to its magic as well.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Not sure why we're spoilering everything since the word spoiler is in the thread title, but...

Spoiler:

An Amatatsu scion is one of 2 things. A member of the family (like Ameiko) or a person chosen by the Amatatsu Seal. This is basically the way we set up ALL of the PCs as possibly becoming rulers or co-rulers of Minkai if they want—it's also insurance if Ameiko dies along the way or is lost or whatever in a way that they can't or don't bring her back to life.

Lonjiku does count as a scion as well, but the Amatatsu Seal would never resurrect him because he was kind of a chump—he caused a fair amount of problems for the family, after all, and put the seal itself in great danger back in the day. The Amatatsu Seal is not a big fan of Lonjiku.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

As for the NPCs, be they one of the four significant ones or one of the several the PCs could ally with along the way...

They're basically tools for you, the GM. If you think the PCs need help in the adventure, you can have any of these NPCs accompany the PCs. If you think the PCs are doing fine and don't need help, the NPCs can cool their jets back at the caravan, and if the PCs get themselves caught or defeated or whatever, you can use the NPCs as saviors who swoop in to rescue the PCs or even as new characters for the PCs to play.

In any case, having helper NPCs on an adventure doesn't affect XP or CR of encounters at all. It makes the PCs able to handler tougher encounters, and you might want to consider including the NPCs as part of the XP division (which further dilutes how many XP each PC gets)... but every GM handles the game differently.


James Jacobs wrote:

Not sure why we're spoilering everything since the word spoiler is in the thread title, but...

** spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:
Because everything's better with spoilers!

... Ok I might have started the trend in this thread, but he did say "possibly" and my better-safe-than-never side took over.

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