Eberron Five Nations Bone Knight

[Momar]

Unless I missed it in my search there doesn't seem to be a conversion lying around for this already, but if there is please point me to it.

Aside from updating the language a bit and pathfinderizing saves the only change I know I want to make is upping the will save track since the paladin now has that just like the cleric. Other than that what are your thoughts on what, if anything, needs balance updating?

Specific questions:

Should the entry skill reqs be reduced by 3 to continue to allow a paladin entry at level 5, or set at 5 so the 6th character level is the earliest is can be taken like most other PrCs?

Command Undead- required entry feat or bonus feat?

Have skeletal steed be fixed or offer a weapon bond?

Sneak Attack and critical hit immunity are no longer undead traits, and even fortification is reduced in effectiveness. Should the bonecraft armor stay the same regardless?

The big one:
Should this PrC be limited to paladins? As is I feel that taking this class on a PF paladin is a pretty bad idea- you lose smite, some auras, the capstone, a CL, and BAB in exchange for some necromancy abilities and a considerable amount of immunities and earlier DR. Overall I'd say you gain a little ground defensively, but lose a lot offensively, which is pretty weak sauce for the paladin. Paladins are already hard to kill but lacking in damage vs. non evil, and it seems to me that tipping the balance even more and removing the evil killing will give one of those characters that a DM tends to ignore because he is ridiculously hard to kill but has anemic damage. I will admit that I haven't looked into necromancy in PF yet so I don't know how much changes the equation, but with only the paladin's spells the bone knight would be very limited in what he could do in that regard.

The problem comes in when looking at the class from the cleric side; they already gain quite a bit while only losing a CL (which is pretty bad, but I think they can survive) and effective domain level. If anything else is added to make the PrC more attractive to paladins it would probably become pretty broken for clerics.

Easy solution: ignore the paladin stuff and consider a (pretty good) cleric PrC. The problem here is that the class was pretty clearly designed with the paladin as a front runner for the entry class, so some of the original flavor is lost. Moderate solution: add paladin specific entry reqs and go nuts. Hard solution: try to keep it open to both and figure out how to make it enticing, but balanced, to both.

Brainstorming on what to add for paladins:
-Full BAB
-Something like the cavalier's tactician ability for BK and his undead
-Retain Smite, possibly a more open but weaker version
-Channeled Smite bonus feat and DC/damage up when channeling through bonecraft

[Bofdm]

Momar wrote:

Unless I missed it in my search there doesn't seem to be a conversion lying around for this already, but if there is please point me to it.

The big one:
Should this PrC be limited to paladins? As is I feel that taking this class on a PF paladin is a pretty bad idea- you lose smite, some auras, the capstone, a CL, and BAB in exchange for some necromancy abilities and a considerable amount of immunities and earlier DR. Overall I'd say you gain a little ground defensively, but lose a lot offensively, which is pretty weak sauce for the paladin. Paladins are already hard to kill but lacking in damage vs. non evil, and it seems to me that tipping the balance even more and removing the evil killing will give one of those characters that a DM tends to ignore because he is ridiculously hard to kill but has anemic damage. I will admit that I haven't looked into necromancy in PF yet so I don't know how much changes the equation, but with only the paladin's spells the bone knight would be very limited in what he could do in that regard.

If you're interested Momar, I made a list of all the Eberron prestige classes from their 3.5 line and "pathfinderized" them for my own game. I could send you my version of Bone Knight if you like.

My take on the class was that it is in fact easier to enter it as a paladin than a cleric. Entering it at 5th level is not a big deal either, as most eberron prestige classes are intended to be able to get into them quick. Most are just five level prestige classes as well.

Granted I made this document before the APG and Ultimate Magic came out, so there are a couple things that could be changed about it. Making it a cavalier prestige class would be interesting to say the least.

In keeping with the version of paladin in pathfinder I think it's a good idea to offer a "Profane bond" rather than a skeletal steed should they choose one. You could grant them immunity to critical hits/sneak attack or just 75% fortification at 10th level, depending on your choice.

One thing I did make sure to do was allow them to heal or hurt undead with their Lay on Hands ability. However their channeling permanently changes to negative energy (though they can heal themselves with this still).

Hope some of this helps. And good luck with your bone knight.

[Momar]

I'd love to see your take on it:

email:

[e-mail]

With respect to paladins I agree that the class is easier to enter into as a paladin, and it's obviously designed with paladins in mind, but at least in PF I feel that a paladin loses too much now for it to be a good choice, since smite evil is so good and there are a number of other nice abilities in later paladin levels. Losing the main offensive weapon and BAB from a class that's already defense oriented just doesn't seem like a good call to me. Maybe I underestimate how far weapon bond and the handful of buffs available will go.

I wasn't really thinking of making it a cavalier PrC, just ripping off tactician, but now that you mention it that could work out pretty well. It requires a more extensive refitting but actually dovetails nicely flavor wise, what with the the being a devoted knight of an ideal (nation in this case).

Thanks.

[Michael Vincenzi]

Bofdm can i have all your conversion files for Eberron?
Please send me an email!

email:

[e-mail]

[Eddie the 'Ed]

Momar wrote:

I'd love to see your take on it:

** spoiler omitted **

With respect to paladins I agree that the class is easier to enter into as a paladin, and it's obviously designed with paladins in mind, but at least in PF I feel that a paladin loses too much now for it to be a good choice, since smite evil is so good and there are a number of other nice abilities in later paladin levels. Losing the main offensive weapon and BAB from a class that's already defense oriented just doesn't seem like a good call to me. Maybe I underestimate how far weapon bond and the handful of buffs available will go.

I wasn't really thinking of making it a cavalier PrC, just ripping off tactician, but now that you mention it that could work out pretty well. It requires a more extensive refitting but actually dovetails nicely flavor wise, what with the the being a devoted knight of an ideal (nation in this case).

Thanks.

Me, too, please! I'd really appreciate the information and perspective. I'm running a PF Eberron campaign right now - very Prophecy-focused, moving toward the middle levels, and I decided to destroy a good amount of Sharn with a massive wave generated as part of a greater Lords of Dust conspiracy. It was a wonderful moment to announce to the players, through NPCs, that Sharn - their overland travel destination - had been hammered.

Anyway, I could email you for it if you'd like - shoot me a response here.

thx,

jdg

[Bofdm]

email:

Note which e-mail you'd like me to send the files to via spoiler tags please. =)

[Momar]

Thanks much Bofdm. This, along with all of the other eberron conversion stuff, will be useful when my group gets to that point. A second opinion is a good thing to have.

Just a couple of questions and minor nitpicks looking it over-

The saves don't match up to other PF PrCs- typically the high save(s) stay at +1 at level 2 and then increase at 3; is there a reason behind the slight bump?

Turn resistance still exists in PF as channel resistance, so I think for master of the white banner just saying "undead under your control gain channel resistance equal to your charisma modifier" is more concise.

Profane bond is listed under BK1 on the table, but level 2 in the text.

I'd still consider giving them a good will save too since in PF both clerics and paladins have good fort and will.

Have you run a game with one yet? I'm curious about how the new smite works out. The condition is a bit more subjective than if they're evil.

Again, thanks for the files.

[Bofdm]

Hey Momar, sorry for the delay in the response.

Double checked the standard pathfinder PrC save progression, and you're right the PrCs I converted get a bump a level before they should and I never realized it. I'll go back and edit the save progression the next time I start working on game stuff. Thanks for noticing. =)

At your advice I've re-worded master of the white banner to be a little less wordy.

Profane Bond was listed on lvl 1 of BK to indicate that if you had previous levels in paladin that it would stack to determine it's effect, otherwise you gain the Profane Bond ability at 2nd level.

I've not had a player that was a BK but I did have a recurring NPC Paladin/BK of the Blood of Vol run into my party on occasion. He was a decent combatant when the party burst into an unhallowed church where the inhabitants had been turned into zombies. The Paladin/BK was giving a sermon while the party fought the zombies and his negative channels every round. It was a pretty rough fight - sending a Paladin after the party is harsh.

My focus in the changing of their smite evil ability was to emphasize the shades of grey in Eberron. While Alignment tries to define things in black and white, I think it disagrees with the noir feel of the setting especially since clerics don't have to be the same alignment of any god they worship.
But I still wanted some manner of defining characteristic a BK could use to smite an enemy - it also allows BKs to be slightly more 'neutral' than a normal paladin - what with their undead use and all.

[Momar]

Bofdm wrote:

My focus in the changing of their smite evil ability was to emphasize the shades of grey in Eberron. While Alignment tries to define things in black and white, I think it disagrees with the noir feel of the setting especially since clerics don't have to be the same alignment of any god they worship.

But I still wanted some manner of defining characteristic a BK could use to smite an enemy - it also allows BKs to be slightly more 'neutral' than a normal paladin - what with their undead use and all.

I just forsee long table arguments about if guy x qualifies as working against Karnath. I'm considering smite anything, but making it more in line with the cavalier's challenge to compensate. Probably it would be just charisma to hit and level damage with none of the other bells and whistles. Or maybe not allow paladin levels to so they'll cap out at 2 or 3 per day with less damage. It's hard to say if the cavalier's challenge is supposed to be balanced with the paladin's smite in a vacuum or if it's all balanced against the rest of the class features.

I was also considering just subbing in a synthesist summoner, since the BK in question did the old mega melee clericzilla thing. A synthesist with large or huge undead eidolon and eldritch heritage (arcane) to pick up some key spells like animate dead might be a decent makeshift version. It's too bad they have to pick alignments for DR instead of damage types, although since DR/weapon type is generally easier to overcome than alignment I'd probably allow it.

If paizo ever makes a cavalier designed to lead dead guys I'd be very interested as well.

[Bofdm]

Momar wrote:

I just forsee long table arguments about if guy x qualifies as working against Karnath. I'm considering smite anything, but making it more in line with the cavalier's challenge to compensate. Probably it would be just charisma to hit and level damage with none of the other bells and whistles. Or maybe not allow paladin levels to so they'll cap out at 2 or 3 per day with less damage. It's hard to say if the cavalier's challenge is supposed to be balanced with the paladin's smite in a vacuum or if it's all balanced against the rest of the class features.

Hm...I see your point. If I recall correctly the situation for determining if they were "working against karrnath" were things like resisting arrest, carrying contraband into the country, to give it a super-cop kind of feel. But I do like your point about making it similar to a cavalier's challenge.

Let me know how your summoner synthesist turns out if you decide to go with it! Again thanks for the input on all this.

[Valkyn Highwind]

Bofdm: I'd be interested in seeing your Eberron conversions as well.

Spoiler:

[e-mail]

[Deiros]

I'd be delighted to be able to have another perspective of the bne knight and some other eberron things ^^

Spoiler:

[e-mail]

[Denraoden]

I'd like to see the bone knight

Spoiler:

[e-mail]

[John Templeton]

@Bofdm : I love to see your work.

email:

[e-mail]

[xorial]

An interesting option for this can be found by the people in the Multiclass Archetype thread. They have the beginnings of a wiki & their Bone Knight is found there.

[Matthew Morris]

I've glanced past this title 5 times now and read it every time 'Eberron Five Nations Done Right' *laugh*

[mittean]

I'd be interested in any Eberron conversions to Pathfinder you have (or anyone else has). Adventures especially, including the WotC AP's. :)

:

[e-mail]

[xorial]

mittean wrote:

I'd be interested in any Eberron conversions to Pathfinder you have (or anyone else has). Adventures especially, including the WotC AP's. :)

** spoiler omitted **

Sent you something with some Eberron conversion.