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I'm asking because this weekend I was the victim of a one shot kill (as in full hit points to negative constitution in one hit). I was playing a level 3 character in a 3-4 Tier with d8 for hit dice. Fortunately, I had most of the money for a raise dead and the others at the table were willing to pitch in for the rest (one guy even offered to pony up 500gp). But what if this had happened to 2 or more of us? Or as a group we just didn't have the money?
Is there a benchmark or limitation for scenario writers such as: "the end villian should be capable of one-shotting 25%/50%/75%/100% of characters appropriate for this Tier"?
If I had an idea of the general risk, then I could decide if it's:
A. Completely accepatable and I'll play whatever kind of character strikes me.
B. Tolerable, but I'll limit my character choices to mitigate the one-shot.
C. Unacceptable, I'll stick with home games.
My gaming time is somewhat limited and 30+ hours spent levelling up a character to have him wiped out basically sucks. I'm neither a game designer nor a scenario writer, so I don't even know if such a metric is possible. Any thoughts?
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I'm asking because this weekend I was the victim of a one shot kill (as in full hit points to negative constitution in one hit). I was playing a level 3 character in a 3-4 Tier with d8 for hit dice. Fortunately, I had most of the money for a raise dead and the others at the table were willing to pitch in for the rest (one guy even offered to pony up 500gp). But what if this had happened to 2 or more of us? Or as a group we just didn't have the money?
Is there a benchmark or limitation for scenario writers such as: "the end villian should be capable of one-shotting 25%/50%/75%/100% of characters appropriate for this Tier"?
If I had an idea of the general risk, then I could decide if it's:
A. Completely accepatable and I'll play whatever kind of character strikes me.
B. Tolerable, but I'll limit my character choices to mitigate the one-shot.
C. Unacceptable, I'll stick with home games.My gaming time is somewhat limited and 30+ hours spent levelling up a character to have him wiped out basically sucks. I'm neither a game designer nor a scenario writer, so I don't even know if such a metric is possible. Any thoughts?
Was this a critical hit? Was the enemy power attacking? Need some more information.
Nate
NYC
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Can a PC do the same? Yes. (usually better)
Is it fair? Yes.
Does it suck? Yes.
The short version tho is that you are not providing us with all the facts: What tier were you playing? What tactics did you employ? What did the rest of the party do during combat? How much con do you have?
Such a metric is not really possible (or valid) as the encounter you had may have been breezed over by other groups and beat up by others. Buffs, tactics, consumables, initiative all play a major role.
It can happen. It sucks, but it happens. Good/Bad dice rolls kill more PCs than anything else.
JP
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Any thoughts?
I've seen characters one shoted in the following ways:
1) You're playing up a subtier2) You get crit with a weapon for x3 or x4 damage
3) Mounted character is charging with a lance
4) Hold Person (or other save or die) followed by Coupe De Grace (but this isn't technically a one shot).
One shots (full HP to dead) aren't common in PFOS scenarios.
So what happenned? (We should have a 'one shot' graveyard thread).
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Here's my specifics:
Scenario: Dalsine Affair, which I think has low, mid and high tier. We were playing mid tier.
My character: Alchemist 3, hp 21, con 10.
Villain: Likely a Magus from what I've gathered from others. Suspected empowered shocking grasp - I was dead before he even applied the 50% adjustment.
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I know it's easy to jump on waltero, but to make it clear, I was at his table and he is giving you the facts. The character went from full hit points to dead on one hit due to a 31 point non-empowered shocking grasp delivered by a magus. The GM rolled an awful lot of 5's and 6's on his damage roll too, which didn't hurt.
On average a maxed out shocking grasp will do roughly 17.5 points of damage with the weapon doing another 4.5 plus strength (for about 22-25 points of damage). Most people who should be in the front rank will be able to survive that moderately well (though the crit not so much). I know it sucks, but this was an instance I didn't think outrageously awful. Fact was, luck was against you.
I would hope there aren't a lot of scenarios with massive player-killing damage off the bat during a climactic fight (and my experience there are only a few), but you just happened to get very unlucky.
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Believe it or not, in my limited experience, I think I have only ever once "one shotted" a PC straight to death. That was in a subtier 8-9 game, to a 5th level PC, via a save or die effect, which was before the scenario was altered (in small part because of this exact game).
There have been times where I've won the surprise round and beat a player in initiative, thus causing his or her death. This is usually with several NPCs or by landing a lucky critical.
There have been times where players were too distracted or forgetful to heal their characters between encounters resulting in a "one-shot" kill.
What you experienced is a rarity in this game, and likely one you'll experience only once or twice over the course of your character's career (meaning the chance of a one-shot kill, not the actual kill). Deaths in the level 2-4 range are the worst. Before that, you haven't invested enough time in your PC to really get upset. After that, you likely have the resources to deal with PC death. I sympathize with your loss and hope you continue to push forward.
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Here's my specifics:
Scenario: Dalsine Affair, which I think has low, mid and high tier. We were playing mid tier.
My character: Alchemist 3, hp 21, con 10.
Villain: Likely a Magus from what I've gathered from others. Suspected empowered shocking grasp - I was dead before he even applied the 50% adjustment.
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I think one of my posts got eaten...
Anyway thank you for responses. Seems like it was a fluke. Branding Opp was as surprised as everyone else.
My concern is for situations when the everage dice rolls will kill the average level appropriate character with average hit points. Hopefully this situation doesn't exist.
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Around these parts, I was introduced to the idea that a 14 Con was about a minimum for organized play. With the PF death at -Con rule, and with the increased power of poisons, I think this gets reinforced to an even greater degree. This isn't to say that if you don't, you are playing 'wrong,' or something, it's just a rule of thumb that I've generally stuck to and advised. In addition, crit happens...er...crits happen. This wasn't a crit, but the statistically outlier with all those 5s and 6s has the same effect. Death, ultimately, is part of the game no matter how much you invest in stopping it.
To be perfectly clear: I'm not saying something like, "it's your own fault." Just providing some experience and advice about those elements of the game that you have control over given that there are so many that you don't.
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My concern is for situations when the everage dice rolls will kill the average level appropriate character with average hit points. Hopefully this situation doesn't exist.
FWIW, I believe the "average" character for PFS is likely to have 3-6 more hit points than your alchemist. That said, I too have a level 3 alchemist and he only has 11 Con. :-)
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I, too, met Waltero this weekend and he showed me his true nature when he ran MoFF for 3 new players on Thursday night. The game started at 10pm and he was patiently explaining the rules and purpose/story/background behind the Pathfinder Society before running the scenario.
I would need nothing more than that for me to believe in Waltero's awesomeness, but I talked to him again and again throughout the weekend and his enthusiasm and willingness to have fun was a pleasure to be around.
IMHO, Waltero is going to be a big part of the growth of PFS in his home city of New Orleans as the awesome sauce of Pathfinder gets spread there.
That said, Waltero, sounds like a case of bad luck. It sucks, but without risk, there can be no reward. I believe this game needs risk to be interesting and fun.
If it helps (and I'm not sure it will), I was one-shotted twice over the weekend. One time I survived thank to...ack! I hate to admit it...thanks to Kyle Freakin' Baird who quickly used a scroll of Breath of Life (that I had given to him before the adventure started) on me before I died and after he had taken half of the baptism for me (Shield Other). My yahoo had 27 hp, false life for another 11, then a con of 11, which left me on short of the 50 I took.
The second time I was one-shotted was during the Grand Melee. A big baddie nailed me for 39 and I failed my save. Dead! It also kilt outright another of our party and made yet another tap out that round. Of course, it was revealed that inadvertently played the wrong tier and things were fixed.
So it happens. I try to be prepared at the high tiers, but it can be tough at the low ones.
-Pain
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A big baddie nailed me for 39 and I failed my save. Dead!
Eh? Massive damage starts at 50 doesn't it? Or just a spell for 39?
For my local game, we had an elf rogue with an 8 Con starting out. He's currently level 10 and hasn't died (though so close so many times). Not the most tactically minded character, he'll often throw himself into melee. Yet has lived.
As Howie says above a Con of 14 is generally considered minimum, with anything less than that being 'at players own risk'... At tier 3-4 you could be facing 6d6 fireballs, and possibly two of them if the bad guys win surprise. Most DMs I've seen pull their punches slightly in that situation though. To die from one shot is pretty bad luck.
I've lost one character so far and that was my Con 10 wizard with Toughness to a fireball at 9th. She so nearly got one-shotted a couple of levels earlier when an earth elemental power attacked her, and she technically died at about 5th although the DM reduced the damage as he'd upped the CR of the enemy to provide more of a challenge. Con 10 is just too risky IMHO.
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Here's my specifics:
Scenario: Dalsine Affair, which I think has low, mid and high tier. We were playing mid tier.
My character: Alchemist 3, hp 21, con 10.
Villain: Likely a Magus from what I've gathered from others. Suspected empowered shocking grasp - I was dead before he even applied the 50% adjustment.
He should have done 32 damage to kill you in one shot. 0 is a number. So many people forget this, and I've nearly killed a couple players who forgot this (but I reminded them).
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While I may be in the minority, and I certainly agree that one hit (and/or one round) kills are very frustrating...
...knowing that there are people at my character's tier capable of dishing such punishment out is part of the excitement of a combat. There's a rush knowing that I could, in any given combat, die.
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I ran this scenario last Saturday at tier 1-2.
Two characters were one shotted. A third was brought close to death on a single hit. The fourth and last character had to run for his life.
I think the BBEG in this scenario is exceedingly dangerous. But after having considered what transpired and how players handled themselves I also realize that the class in mention has very real weaknesses players can exploit.
The enemy is a serious threat, but players can mitigate this to a certain extent through tactics.
Alas against the first character I oneshotted in this game, I rolled 4 X 6 on 4d6. Lady Fortune is your true adversary.
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I agree with Stormfriend and Howie23; a Con of 14 is what I consider minimum too if you want to avoid a premature death. As far as I remember I have only killed on character with Con 14+ (that character was actually stable at -6 or so, but died because of TPK.
Anything less than Con 14 is 'at players own risk'... Compared to an identical character with Con 10 only, the badgys have to deal minimum 6 hp more damage for a killing blow.
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I for one welcome our magus overlords.
In all seriousness we should expect to see a lot of magus BBEGs in the mods to come. Spell Combat destroys the action economy so bad that they make really effective villains.
Apparently, the 10-11 Grand Melee at PaizoCon had an Oni Mage Magus. I can only imagine what that thing must have been like.
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He should have done 32 damage to kill you in one shot. 0 is a number. So many people forget this, and I've nearly killed a couple players who forgot this (but I reminded them).Here's my specifics:
Scenario: Dalsine Affair, which I think has low, mid and high tier. We were playing mid tier.
My character: Alchemist 3, hp 21, con 10.
Villain: Likely a Magus from what I've gathered from others. Suspected empowered shocking grasp - I was dead before he even applied the 50% adjustment.
How do you calculate this?
HP 21Damage 31
Result -10
Con 10
Per the rules, dead.
On the minimum Con of 14, I think that is a holdover from the veterans of Living Greyhawk, where it was exceedingly deadly if you had less, and usually required an Amulet of Health at higher tiers, even with a 14.
My experience with PFS is that it is not nearly so deadly, at least not for the PCs I tend to build, so I wouldn't think a 14 is required, although I definitely wouldn't make it a dump stat for any class.
Then again, my primary PFS characters are an archer, tries to stay at range but is built to still be able to use his bow in melee; and a tripping fighter who also disarms, with a reach weapon.
That second one was used as an example of a character who makes GMs unhappy, with a slightly nastier trip attack and no disarm attack, in an earlier thread on the boards here. At present, he tends to make mincemeat of any non-stable, weapon wielding opponent, even though he does fairly minimal damage on his own.
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He should have done 32 damage to kill you in one shot. 0 is a number. So many people forget this, and I've nearly killed a couple players who forgot this (but I reminded them).Here's my specifics:
Scenario: Dalsine Affair, which I think has low, mid and high tier. We were playing mid tier.
My character: Alchemist 3, hp 21, con 10.
Villain: Likely a Magus from what I've gathered from others. Suspected empowered shocking grasp - I was dead before he even applied the 50% adjustment.How do you calculate this?
HP 21
Damage 31
Result -10
Con 10
Per the rules, dead.
As Joseph Caubo points out, 31 hp dmg only brings the character to -9 hp. 21+10 is in deed 31, but you are fogetting about 0 hp.
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As Joseph Caubo points out, 31 hp dmg only brings the character to -9 hp. 21+10 is in deed 31, but you are fogetting about 0 hp.He should have done 32 damage to kill you in one shot. 0 is a number. So many people forget this, and I've nearly killed a couple players who forgot this (but I reminded them).Here's my specifics:
Scenario: Dalsine Affair, which I think has low, mid and high tier. We were playing mid tier.
My character: Alchemist 3, hp 21, con 10.
Villain: Likely a Magus from what I've gathered from others. Suspected empowered shocking grasp - I was dead before he even applied the 50% adjustment.How do you calculate this?
HP 21
Damage 31
Result -10
Con 10
Per the rules, dead.
Huh?
21 - 21 = 0, ok.
0 - 10 = -10, dead.
Another example, 40 hit points of damage, character has 28 hit points, Con of 12.
What am I missing?
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As Joseph Caubo points out, 31 hp dmg only brings the character to -9 hp. 21+10 is in deed 31, but you are fogetting about 0 hp.He should have done 32 damage to kill you in one shot. 0 is a number. So many people forget this, and I've nearly killed a couple players who forgot this (but I reminded them).Here's my specifics:
Scenario: Dalsine Affair, which I think has low, mid and high tier. We were playing mid tier.
My character: Alchemist 3, hp 21, con 10.
Villain: Likely a Magus from what I've gathered from others. Suspected empowered shocking grasp - I was dead before he even applied the 50% adjustment.How do you calculate this?
HP 21
Damage 31
Result -10
Con 10
Per the rules, dead.
Callarek, I understand your math. You're missing the rules. At -10 HP he's dead, not at -11.
When it (HP) gets to a negative amount equal to your constitution score, you're dead.
-Swiftbrook
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I know it's easy to jump on waltero, but to make it clear, I was at his table and he is giving you the facts. The character went from full hit points to dead on one hit due to a 31 point non-empowered shocking grasp delivered by a magus. The GM rolled an awful lot of 5's and 6's on his damage roll too, which didn't hurt.
Please explain, how do you get 31 points of damage from a non-empowered shocking grasp, when the spell is capped at 5d6?
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I know it's easy to jump on waltero, but to make it clear, I was at his table and he is giving you the facts. The character went from full hit points to dead on one hit due to a 31 point non-empowered shocking grasp delivered by a magus. The GM rolled an awful lot of 5's and 6's on his damage roll too, which didn't hurt.Please explain, how do you get 31 points of damage from a non-empowered shocking grasp, when the spell is capped at 5d6?
Weapon Damage.
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Please explain, how do you get 31 points of damage from a non-empowered shocking grasp, when the spell is capped at 5d6?
Well since it's part of the mod, I'll spoilerize it.
5D6 (shocking grasp) + 1d8 (longsword damage) + 3 (strength modifier) = maximum damage of 41.
Alternatively, this wasn't part of the mod, but you could cast it as an evoker and get out that damage as well, but it would mean rolling near max damage (adding in 1/2 your level as bonus damage to evocation spells).
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My mistake, I thought you were still considered dying when at a negative equal to your Con score. Guess I was being nice letting those two folks live...Stop being so nice! Destroy their souls! Drink their tears! Dance upon the remains of their torn up character sheets!
Listen, I'm already blamed for killing PCs in the area I never even GM'ed for (seriously). I'm slowly building a reputation that will one day rival yours. This I promise you, Kyle Baird!
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Listen, I'm already blamed for killing PCs in the area I never even GM'ed for (seriously). I'm slowly building a reputation that will one day rival yours. This I promise you, Kyle Baird!My mistake, I thought you were still considered dying when at a negative equal to your Con score. Guess I was being nice letting those two folks live...Stop being so nice! Destroy their souls! Drink their tears! Dance upon the remains of their torn up character sheets!
You both can kill me anytime. I'll bring my 8 Con Gunslinger!
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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As someone who's never played in any organized play prior to PFS, that whole "14 CON minimum" thing is something I'd never heard of prior to reading this thread. It sounds a bit unnecessary (and really expensive, point-wise, if you're a non-dwarf or - God forbid - an elf). My human fighter, Cledwyn, has a 12 CON and does just fine, despite semi-frequently playing up a sub-tier (due to varying attendance and sometimes broad level spreads among players). Interestingly, he played up into a sub-tier 3-4 scenario while at level 2, and it was actually a different fighter (at level 3) who got one-shotted by a double Scorching Ray to the face, with both rays rolling above-average damage.
Rest in peace, Reye.
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Ok here is the really nuts and bolts of this. If you die you die, bad things happen. Per rules other PC's can not donate gold or prestige(even from the same faction) to raise your character, either you have it or you don't. Waltero I sympathise with you as a player and as a veteran PFS GM, we don't go out of our way to kill PC's, but bad things happen. I really doesn't matter if you character is one shotted or dies from 1000 paper cuts. Death is Death. The best one was when one of our PC's died twice in three rounds. He was an 11th level rouge who was killed by a very nasty undead, the next round he became a zombie and shambled after us at which point our wizard lightning bolted him into ash. His death required a ressurection not a raise, and thsu he did not have the money or prestige to bring himself back.
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Ok here is the really nuts and bolts of this. If you die you die, bad things happen. Per rules other PC's can not donate gold or prestige(even from the same faction) to raise your character, either you have it or you don't. Waltero I sympathise with you as a player and as a veteran PFS GM, we don't go out of our way to kill PC's, but bad things happen. I really doesn't matter if you character is one shotted or dies from 1000 paper cuts. Death is Death. The best one was when one of our PC's died twice in three rounds. He was an 11th level rouge who was killed by a very nasty undead, the next round he became a zombie and shambled after us at which point our wizard lightning bolted him into ash. His death required a ressurection not a raise, and thsu he did not have the money or prestige to bring himself back.
Actually, you can't donate prestige, but you can pool gold to purchase spell casting services during a scenario, such as to raise a fallen comrade.