I know I'm not being new or original when I say this, but leaving PAO untouched from 3.5 renders all the work done on revamping shapechanging magic in Pathfinder rather meaningless.
Many people simply ban the spell from their games. This is the easiest solution but is by no means the best. Deciding whether to allow a certain use of PAO on a case-by-case basis at the table is the next-best thing, but no DM is capable of doing this with a 100% guarantee of fairness (or, in more pragmatic terms, a guarantee to avoid an argument).
So, the best solution is to revise the spell. I believe we can all agree that the main problems with the spell are:
a) Open-endedness so severe that attempting to define it would reduce Aristotle to a supporting character from One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest.
b) Durations that, if applied to Cialis™, would lead to gangrene.
So, here's my attempt to tackle these, in order.
Open-endedness:
At least one DM reading this has had a player say "I turn the air over the monster's head into 1500 cubic feet of red-hot magma." Despite this usually being a joke on the player's part, the fact that some people could potentially interpret the spell this way is a problem (with the spell). I don't know where the PFRPG explicitly defines what an object is (other than to state the difference between an object and a creature), so I'll just throw some stuff out there and hope others agree with me on these guidelines:
- PAO cannot change an object into a form that is not stable at room temperature (ice, magma, etc).
- PAO cannot turn an object or creature into or out of a gaseous or incorporeal state. (No turning air into stuff, can't affect a creature that implosion couldn't, etc.)
- PAO doesn't take the place of learning a Craft skill.
- PAO shouldn't be a choose-on-the-fly buff/battefield control/save-or-die without taking a bit of a hit in power.
Duration:
- Permanent effects should be small, expensive, or time consuming.
So here are my revisions to the spell text, which basically replace everything below the Spell Resistance line:
This spell has five versions: creature into creature, object into object, creature into object, object into creature, and duplicate transmutation. This spell has no effect on incorporeal creatures or creatures in gaseous form.
Creature into creature: This version of the spell turns a living creature into another kind of living creature, as per alter self, beast shape IV, elemental body IV, form of the dragon III, plant shape III, or giant shape II. You must have a caster level of 17th or higher to turn a creature into a Huge dragon or Huge giant. The duration of the effect depends on the minimum level of the spell necessary to assume the chosen form: 1 week/level for 2nd, 1 day/level for 3rd, 1 hour/level for 4th, 10 minutes/level for 5th, 1 minute/level for 6th, 1 round/level for 7th, and 1 round/5 levels for 8th. Even if a form is accessible by a lower-level version of a spell, the target gains the benefits of the highest-level spell in the series, e.g. a character assuming the form of a Medium animal would gain any special abilities from the form as if it had cast beast shape IV, but would last 1 day/level.
Object into object: This use of the spell can turn any unattended nonmagical solid object into another solid object of roughly equal size and mass. Complex objects require a successful Craft skill check to make; otherwise they do not function. This version of the spell lasts just as long as a major creation spell used to create the object would, unless alchemical quicksilver equal to two-thirds of the transformed object’s market price are used as an additional material component, in which case this spell becomes permanent.
Creature into object: You transform a corporeal, nongaseous creature (whether living or not) into any solid object of roughly equal size. Complex objects require a successful Craft check to make; if the check fails, the creature cannot be used for its intended purpose but does not appear any different from an ordinary object of the same kind. Materials that can go into the object are stone, cloth, rope, wood, leather, semi-precious minerals such as quartz and malachite, and non-precious metals and alloys such as brass, bronze, pig iron, and steel. The creature retains all of its statistics, including hit points, saving throws, natural armor bonuses, and damage reduction. While transformed, the creature is immune to mind-affecting effects and any effect that does not also work on objects. It is also immune to effects that only target objects, unless those effects are harmless. It takes half damage from most energy attacks (just like a normal object). It can save against effects using its own saving throw bonuses even if it is unattended. Effects like shrink item work on transmuted creatures, but end immediately if the polymorph effect is dispelled. Treat the transmuted creature as a crystalline creature for adjudicating effects such as shatter. The transmuted creature is unconscious and unaware of its surroundings. The creature has a break DC equal to its CMD. Breaking the object deals 10d6 points of damage to the creature and ends the spell. Otherwise, this version of the spell lasts 1 round per level, unless 500 gp of alchemical quicksilver and diamond dust valued at 500 gp per HD of the target are used as an additional material component, in which case the spell is permanent.
Object into creature: You turn any unattended nonmagical solid object into a living creature of roughly equal size and weight. The creature can be any animal, magical beast, or humanoid (including giants) that could be summoned with a summon nature’s ally VI spell. The creature gains the advanced template. The creature is initially friendly toward you, but you have no special empathic connection with it. This version of the spell lasts for 1 minute/level.
Duplicate spell: This version of polymorph any object allows you to duplicate the effects of transmute mud to rock, transmute rock to mud, flesh to stone, stone to flesh, transmute metal to wood, or baleful polymorph. These function as the spell duplicated, but are considered to be an 8th level spell for calculating DCs and similar purposes.
So, any thoughts? Did I get everything? Anyone see any loopholes? If you have any questions about how the above revision would work, you can ask me for clarification!
Reserved.
I know I'm not being new or original when I say this, but leaving PAO untouched from 3.5 renders all the work done on revamping shapechanging magic in Pathfinder rather meaningless.
Many people simply ban the spell from their games. This is the easiest solution but is by no means the best. Deciding whether to allow a certain use of PAO on a case-by-case basis at the table is the next-best thing, but no DM is capable of doing this with a 100% guarantee of fairness (or, in more pragmatic terms, a guarantee to avoid an argument).So, the best solution is to revise the spell. I believe we can all agree that the main problems with the spell are:
a) Open-endedness so severe that attempting to define it would reduce Aristotle to a supporting character from One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest.
b) Durations that, if applied to Cialis™, would lead to gangrene.
So, here's my attempt to tackle these, in order.
Open-endedness:
At least one DM reading this has had a player say "I turn the air over the monster's head into 1500 cubic feet of red-hot magma." Despite this usually being a joke on the player's part, the fact that some people could potentially interpret the spell this way is a problem (with the spell). I don't know where the PFRPG explicitly defines what an object is (other than to state the difference between an object and a creature), so I'll just throw some stuff out there and hope others agree with me on these guidelines:
- PAO cannot change an object into a form that is not stable at room temperature (ice, magma, etc).
- PAO cannot turn an object or creature into or out of a gaseous or incorporeal state. (No turning air into stuff, can't affect a creature that implosion couldn't, etc.)
- PAO doesn't take the place of learning a Craft skill.
- PAO shouldn't be a choose-on-the-fly buff/battefield control/save-or-die without taking a bit of a hit in power.
Duration:
- Permanent effects should be small, expensive, or time consuming.
So here are...
What issues have come up in your games due to the Pathfinder version?
What issues have come up in your games due to the Pathfinder version?
Well, there's the issue that it can act as a permanent buff with a standard action casting time and no expensive material components, or as a good ol'-fashioned 3.5 save-or-die. I know that flesh to stone has the same problem (either the monster is removed from the fight or you've wasted the spell), but PAO can work on creatures that aren't made of flesh as well as those that are immune to petrification. In one game I was in, the BBEG was turned into a sheet of paper, which was then set on fire. This was after a creature in the preceding encounter failed a save to the cleric's destruction spell but still managed not to die until the invisible TWF rogue full-attacked it. This understandably irked the cleric.
Also, there's the perennial problem of turning a human fighter into a troll or hill giant, and have it be permanent, or turning a pebble into a great wyrm gold dragon and having the spell last a minimum of 20 minutes.
Well, it is an 8th level spell for a reason.
Good point. Still, I think it should be powerful, but not 'all-powerful.'
You're not alone in being disappointed that nothing was done about Polymorph Any Object -- I felt kind of the same when the PFRPG rules came out.
Your suggestions sound pretty good, although maybe I'd simplify it even further by saying it can be used to replicate any conjuration (creation) or single-target transmutation spell of level 7 or lower (with a duration as per the normal PAO rules).
Well, there's the issue that it can act as a permanent buff with a standard action casting time and no expensive material components, or as a good ol'-fashioned 3.5 save-or-die. I know that flesh to stone has the same problem (either the monster is removed from the fight or you've wasted the spell), but PAO can work on creatures that aren't made of flesh as well as those that are immune to petrification. In one game I was in, the BBEG was turned into a sheet of paper, which was then set on fire. This was after a creature in the preceding encounter failed a save to the cleric's destruction spell but still managed not to die until the invisible TWF rogue full-attacked it. This understandably irked the cleric.
What's problem with save or dies ? I never really understood it. It's not like sods are the best option for casters anyway.
but yeah, this spell needs some work. I am not sure what should be done honestly. If we want for this spell to remain true to it's name and not be overpowered it's gonna take a lot of brainstorming and testing.
but yeah, this spell needs some work. I am not sure what should be done honestly. If we want for this spell to remain true to it's name and not be overpowered it's gonna take a lot of brainstorming and testing.
Yeah, it's going to take a lot of work.
shouldnt the spell just be broken up in parts like the polymorph spell ?