|
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
In last night's game (me GMing), the party got ambushed by a bunch of trolls. One PC went invisible (she saw the trolls before they saw her), but ended up standing in the path of least resistance for the troll as it moved forward (basically, narrow path, it had to be half on path, half in the tree line, and the part of the treeline where the PC was invisible/hiding was one the straightest line to where he was going, so crash).
Question - He didn't/couldn't see her, but he moved into her square. How would you adjudicate that?
She saw him coming and wanted to get out of way, but it wasn't her turn. Reflex to get out of the way? Acrobatics? Too bad? And if she does get out of the way, what does that do to being hidden/invisible?
[The other crazy factor is that trolls have Scent, but that gets into problems with the stealth/invisibility rules being gray and not interacting so well.]
They would just get a Scent Perception check to notice the Invisible person´s ´PRESENCE´ (within range) when they are within the 30´(+/-) range of Scent, and if they noticed the smell Scent lets them pinpoint the location of adjacent beings (they DO need to pass the Scent Perception check, but would have zero distance mods at this point).
Perception has a number of uses, the most common of which is an opposed check versus an opponent's Stealth check to notice the opponent and avoid being surprised... Perception is also used to notice fine details in the environment [such as: Notice the stench of rotting garbage, Detect the smell of smoke...]
The opposed Perception check vs. Stealth is the check ANYBODY would make.
The check to notice the presence of a scent within range is a completely different check (this is the only check that Scent´s +8 bonus applies to).One might note that ALL scents are invisible... 8-)
Also, Invisibility says:
In any case, without Scent it would bump into her, revealing her location (just as if you bumped into an invisible statue)
If it has a Standard Action remaining it could attack her square if it´s wants to, or just complete it´s movement, moving around her.
In last night's game (me GMing), the party got ambushed by a bunch of trolls. One PC went invisible (she saw the trolls before they saw her), but ended up standing in the path of least resistance for the troll as it moved forward (basically, narrow path, it had to be half on path, half in the tree line, and the part of the treeline where the PC was invisible/hiding was one the straightest line to where he was going, so crash).
Question - He didn't/couldn't see her, but he moved into her square. How would you adjudicate that?
She saw him coming and wanted to get out of way, but it wasn't her turn. Reflex to get out of the way? Acrobatics? Too bad? And if she does get out of the way, what does that do to being hidden/invisible?
[The other crazy factor is that trolls have Scent, but that gets into problems with the stealth/invisibility rules being gray and not interacting so well.]
Previously in my games I handle it sort of like overrun. The invisible person gets to pick letting them go by or getting an attack of opportunity
Scent is the overriding factor here, as Quandary said. If the Scent check failed, I would just give it a standard Dexterity check for the invisible person to duck the moving troll. Without scenting out the invisible PC, the troll does not know to grope around looking, so it's not an active thing. It's a simple bump-into-you thing. So you don't use any of the troll's abilities to set the DC.
The standard DC for things that are not super hard but do need to be rolled-for, seems to be 15. I would give the invisible PC a dc 15 Dexterity check to stay out of the way.
Question - He didn't/couldn't see her, but he moved into her square. How would you adjudicate that?
In general, I would call it an overrun attempt. He is trying to move through a square occupied by an opponent. The target gets to make an AoO. I would also allow a +2 circumstance bonus to block.
She saw him coming and wanted to get out of way, but it wasn't her turn. Reflex to get out of the way? Acrobatics? Too bad? And if she does get out of the way, what does that do to being hidden/invisible?
Overrun specifically allows an opponent to simply avoid the attempt. Per the core rules if the troll attempts to stop in the occupied square it must either return to the last legal space or another if it is closer.
[The other crazy factor is that trolls have Scent, but that gets into problems with the stealth/invisibility rules being gray and not interacting so well.]
Now, this makes it a little more complicated. The troll would know if there is an opponent with 30 feet, but would not know the direction. As soon as the troll moves within 5 feet (1 square) of the scent’s source, the troll can pinpoint the area that the source occupies, even if it cannot be seen.
So, I would say in this particular case I would run it like this: Troll moves adjacent to PC. Troll smells PC and pinpoints PC. Troll may now deceide what to do--stop and attack, continue moving and overrun or change its mind and do whatever else it wants to do.
If it was something that didn't have scent. I would allow the PC to make an AoO, if they chose. If they make an AoO they have also revealed their position as the target of melee attack knows the direction of even an invisible attacker. Assuming the PC doesn't make an AoO. They can simply let the opponent walk right through their square, none the wiser to the PC's location.
Previously in my games I handle it sort of like overrun. The invisible person gets to pick letting them go by or getting an attack of opportunity
Yep - that seems to be the best way of handling it (also recommended by 3.5 Private Sanctuary in I believe).
Yeah, allowing an Over-Run makes the most sense but kind of brings to the fore issues with Over-Run.
Just because they´re Invisible or Blurred, does that really introduce a Miss Chance of failure for Over-Running?
Why should Over-Run normally require a Standard Action if you´re going to allow it as a non-action vs. Invisible opponents who want to avoid?
|
|
Overrun seems like the ticket. That's what we weren't connecting it to.
On the Scent checks, where would you set the DC? Vs. PC's Stealth check? And with Invisibility? Moving is +20, stationary is +40. PC wasn't moving, but was giving off odors (not like farting or anything, but giving off normal odors). To a creature with Scent, that's got to be equivalent making noise, right?
Another question. This is probably wrong (in hindsight) but the Troll wasn't expecting anyone so I didn't have his stop and make an active Perception/Scent check at 30'. Once that happened, I know it could have pinpointed the PC at 5', but I figured that would have required another conscious action, which didn't make sense given that he was just moving through. I'd appreciate advice on how I should have handled these passive Perception/Scent checks.
[Good news is that this was a random encounter before they run into a whole tribe of trolls. This was like a dry run for them... and for me. I'm also working through the new regeneration rules :/ ]
Check my spoiler above... for Scent + Stealth.
Scent doesn´t really say if it works actively or passively only.
If you say it only works actively, then that obviously narrows things down alot.
|
|
Check my spoiler above... for Scent + Stealth.
So one could argue that there is no Stealth vs. Scent unless there is some type of olfactory cover/concealment. Just hiding behind a curtain isn't enough; you are still "visible" to Scent.
EDIT: Wait, just re-read the Special part of Perception, the +8 represents the "can't hide from smell" part. You can hide but the creature with Scent gets +8 to find you.
And Invisibility would would make it harder to pin-point someone at 30', but by 5', no problem.
Scent doesn´t really say if it works actively or passively only.
If you say it only works actively, then that obviously narrows things down alot.
Yeah, I'd like to hear folks' opinions on how to handle passive checks, with Scent and with regular Perception. Are they automatic, or does a creature need to stop and "look"?
EDIT 2:
When a creature detects a scent, the exact location of the source is not revealed — only its presence somewhere within range. The creature can take a move action to note the direction of the scent.
This suggests that the "know someone is there" part is passive. If you have to move-action to find the direction, you probably don't have to move-action to just get a whiff.
When the creature is within 5 feet of the source, it pinpoints the source's location.
This is somewhat ambiguous, but I'd probably err on the side of ... hmmm ... maybe something in between. You automatically know they're close, within 5', but you have to use a move action to pin-point, which you automatically succeed.
I think it´s pretty much not stated in the rules (active vs. passive) so it´s something you have to rule. I´m not really hugely opposed to either way.
However you rule, I personally think the auto-locate when adjacent (which requires a previous Scent check) would itself be passive.
You can have a different interpretation then me, but I think you´re mis-reading my point about Stealth/Scent.
Scent isn´t perceiving the PERSON THEMSELF, it is perceiving their scent in the area.
Like I said, all scents are invisible, so it doesn´t really matter if they´re invisible,
and unless their scent particlers themselves are sentient and have stealth ranks, stealth seems likewise not workable.
The opposed Perception check vs. Stealth is ONE use of Perception, and Scent is a completely different one, it´s not even a matter of needing ´olfactory concealment´.
having ´olfactory concealment´ as DC increase, e.g. for air-tight clothes, is reasonable but shouldn´t be conflated with normal concealment in any ways IMHO.
Even if you play Scent as being a passive/always on sense, it´s still easily do-able to Stealth into Charging or Single Move + Attack distance, which seems enough for me.
The reason why I assume Scent is passive/always on (re: creaures within it`s range)
is that it doesn`t give you an Action to actively Smell...
´Active´ Smelling IS described as part of TRACKING, which can find creatures not in the normal range, but that isn´t really relevant to the discussed situation (though I`m sure it could be really usefull in certain combat scenarios).
EDIT: How Stubbs describes Scent isn`t RAW, but I think is how the RAW probably SHOULD work, in short because if Stealth doesn`t apply, you have a +8 modifier from Scent itself, and distance modifiers are under 30`, that roll is just going to have a very high chance of success almost all the time. The Move Action to determine direction seems plausible, and consistent with the fact that you can use Scent to Track, i.e. discern directionality somehow or another.
She saw him coming and wanted to get out of way, but it wasn't her turn. Reflex to get out of the way? Acrobatics? Too bad? And if she does get out of the way, what does that do to being hidden/invisible?Overrun specifically allows an opponent to simply avoid the attempt. Per the core rules if the troll attempts to stop in the occupied square it must either return to the last legal space or another if it is closer.
Ignoring the scent question for the moment (maybe this troll has a bad head cold), why would the troll get bumped to another space? I know it's RAW, but what in-game explanation for it is there? Do you automatically detect "Oh, there's something there" and flinch back a space, thereby automatically detecting (although not pinpointing) the invisible creature?
The check to notice the presence of a scent within range is a completely different check (this is the only check that Scent´s +8 bonus applies to).
+8 bonus?
| 7 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Special: ...Creatures with the scent special quality have a +8 bonus on Perception checks made to detect a scent.
Yes, ideally this should also be listed under the Scent ability itself. :-)
...This is why I feel that detecting a scent (pre-req to automatically pinpointing adjacent creatures) requires a Perception roll and isn't an automatic pass.
I do feel that such rolls automatically or passively OCCUR, since no action to Smell creatures is given... thus it seems to fall under normal Perception rules which allows automatic Perception checks, though you can spend a Move Action to actively look for stimulus, giving yourself a better chance to roll high.
If it was meant to automatically detect all creatures within range, it seems that Scent would say something like 'a creature with Scent is aware of the presence of all creatures within 30', but only their presence and not exact location'. That's how all other abilities which make you automatically aware of targets within range are worded, after all. Likewise, pin-pointing adjacent creatures wouldn't need to be phrased as applying to creature's whose scent you already detected if that were automatically true for all creatures within range.
I think the confusion about whether Scent automatically detects all scents within range is because the passage that Stubbs references is largely unchanged from 3.5, and in 3.5 I'm pretty sure it worked just like Stubbs says (automatic scent detection within range) along with the Move Action to determine direction which was explicitly in the Scent rules (but no longer in PRPG). In 3.5, Scent was scent and that was it, but in PRPG Perception now covers ALL senses, and includes checks/DCs for DETECTING SCENTS, which is the phrase used in Scent. If that wasn't the case, and there was no mention anywhere in the rules for any check to detect a scent, then sure, I would say that you automatically detect Scents like Stubbs says... but that's not the case in PRPG.
Hit the FAQ button if you'd like developer clarification....
(though as I wrote before, given that stealth shouldn't apply and distance is <30', along with the +8 bonus,
making it an auto-succeed within range seems the best gameplay solution)
There HAS definitely been an expressly written change to how it works. Perception now says:
In 3.5, there was no skill used for noticing or detecting scents. In PRPG there is.
So why would anybody assume that you don´t roll to detect a scent in one situation, when you apparently do so for all others? Certainly the wording for Scent doesn`t describe a clear differentiation to normal Smell Perception, much less automatic detection. Your semantics about If/When really don`t imply as much as you think... `When I smell somebody`s fart, I get upset` doesn`t mean that automatically happens for ALL farts, but only applies to the farts I smell. When vs If is really just a slight difference in the base optimism of the narrator, not an indication of inevitability.
AS I SAID, I believe it DOES work better (gameplay wise) for Scent (regardless of whether you must actively use it, or it automatically works) to automatically succeed at noticing all creatures within range, i.e. the in-combat usage. But the RAW we have for it in PRPG, which IS taken straight from 3.5 for the section we`re discussing in Scent itself, aren`t amenable to that, since they use the same phrase `detect scent` that is used in the Perception skill (brand new to PRPG). So Scent itself didn`t change much, but it`s wording now happens to line up with how a specific skill works. Just like if Climbing was an automatic function in one edition, and then it becomes a Skill in another, you would expect to use the Skill even if some Climbing-related section didn`t explicitly mention the Climb skill (but didn`t mention anything about automatic success either).
In all likelyhood this was something that fell under the tracks in the process of writing PRPG...
It certainly looks like that given that there aren`t any given base DCs for CREATURE`s scents in the Perception table, and in fact it isn`t at all clear that, just as Scent overlaps with what normal Perception does (detecting smoke, garbage stenches), that people without Scent could also be able to Smell the presence of other creatures within 30` (although we don`t have the DCs for those, seemingly they could make the same roll, just without the +8).
If automatic success within range is the RAI, to be consistent with all of the PRPG rule-set Scent really should be re-written more similar to all other `automatic detection within range` effects, e.g. Detect Evil, Magic, etc. Likewise, it`s functioning could be more clearly separated from what normal people can do with Perception:Smell (which didn`t exist before in 3.5).
BTW, The +8 does NOT apply to tracking, it is only a subtext of Perception.
|
In general, I would call it an overrun attempt.
Slight twist: What if the troll was trying to stop in the occupied space instead of moving through? What if the PC had no where else to go? Overrun doesn't address stopping in the space. You could apply Bull Rush, but it doesn't really address this either.
The troll bumps into the invisible creature. thud. It decides how to act from there.
The troll bumps into the invisible creature. thud. It decides how to act from there.
Yes.
Being invisible doesn't grant you special abilities to avoiding anyone trying to pass through your square. Enemies can't and allies can. This isn't about Stealth. This is about that you're in the way and you're not allowed to avoid the troll unless he's doing an Overrun. Since you can't avoid it, you get walked into. At that moment regardless of anything else the troll's movement stops because it's hit an obstacle. If it has actions left, it can use them appropriately, which might include trying to puzzle out what's happened. Or it might include taking a 50% miss-chance to try and eat you.
The troll bumps into the invisible creature. thud. It decides how to act from there.Yes.
Being invisible doesn't grant you special abilities to avoiding anyone trying to pass through your square. Enemies can't and allies can. This isn't about Stealth. This is about that you're in the way and you're not allowed to avoid the troll unless he's doing an Overrun. Since you can't avoid it, you get walked into. At that moment regardless of anything else the troll's movement stops because it's hit an obstacle. If it has actions left, it can use them appropriately, which might include trying to puzzle out what's happened. Or it might include taking a 50% miss-chance to try and eat you.
Exactly. Not being able to see people from being blind doesn't give you the extraordinary ability to walk through people's squares or other obstables without making checks, so not being able to see an invisible enemy or wall should similarly not grant this ability. You still have the ability to make an acrobatics or overrun check for going through a person's square, assuming you have the available actions to do so, but you cannot simply stroll through.