This came up the other night. I'm running a low level Magus in a ROTRL campaign, and after a particularly nasty ambush at our camp site by goblins, I commented that I wanted to get myself an armored coat (which can be donned as a move action). I don't yet have medium armor proficiency, but we do have enough gold all together to afford a "mithral" armored coat (and they're willing to support me on this one so long as I sacrifice my next few shares of gold for them. I deal a lot of damage). The issue comes in the idea that, while the GM says that, based on the description of the item, he would allow "mithral" to be applied to it (and therefore, I'm getting one), how would the RAW handle this?
When does armor become "metal"?
My answer, personally, would be that an armor becomes metal (and therefore qualifies for different metals) when applying a different metal (mithral, adamantine) would be beneficial. For example, putting mithral studs in studded leather doesn't seem to be a great boon. It might be a little lighter, but not enough to really matter. Compare this to an armored coat, where metal plates are sewn into the lining. I would think that this would benefit from mithral/adamantine, since while you do have a leather coat for minor protection, the majority of the protection (I would think) comes from the metal plates.
What do the rest of you think?
Thanks in advance,
-The Beast
Studded leather is metal armor. It's listed as such in the GMG. Since studded leather is metal special material armor, I would say so is the arming coat. However as the APG came out after the GMG, there is no firm yes no on that.
Wow. I didn't know that Studded leather was considered metal (of course, I haven't read all of my GMG yet). Maybe the requirement is just that metal must play a part in the armor itself, as opposed to a major part. Then again, maybe my understanding of studded leather is off.
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The thing is, studded leather as described in the PHB never existed...nor would it actually work as armor. The closest thing to studded leather is small plate brigindine which has small light plates riveted to the soft leather. Now that DOES work as a nice light armor. And if you assume that studded leather should be that, studded leather as metal armor makes more sense.
I absolutely agree. I often wondered what studs would actually "do" to make leather more effective. But brigandine is something I actually know about and (up until now) have offered as an extra light armor. However, just translating St. Lthr into Brigandine seems like a much better idea (they basically had the same stats).
Might even change the name to brigandine.
And, by this logic, an armored coat would, in fact, be available for things like mithral, since it's essentially brigandine in a coat form.
Here's the point that it is metal for me:
1. Druids can't wear it. If the druid can't wear it then it's metal -- after all he could wear it otherwise.
2. Rusting Grasp/rust monsters/ shocking grasp will work on it (or get a bonus to hit) then it has to be metal.
If either of those apply it's metal in my book. So I make sure to clarify with the GM what armor druids can wear.
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Here's the point that it is metal for me:
1. Druids can't wear it. If the druid can't wear it then it's metal -- after all he could wear it otherwise.
2. Rusting Grasp/rust monsters/ shocking grasp will work on it (or get a bonus to hit) then it has to be metal.
If either of those apply it's metal in my book. So I make sure to clarify with the GM what armor druids can wear.
+1.
As a bit of a nit-picking and an aside, you would still technically need medium armor proficiency to wear the mithral armored coat without suffering the non-proficiency penalty... It's treated as light for everything EXCEPT the proficiency. (This tidbit at the top of page 155 in my core book, just FYI.)
There are some exceptions, but those are special armors. It's caught my group a few times, and I've had to remind them.
Oh, and I apologize if you already knew and accounted for this, it's a little bit of a thread jump.
See I take Studded as being 'not metal'...
I could stud with stone etc...
See I take Studded as being 'not metal'...
I could stud with stone etc...
The metal studs you see on studded leather armor are not designed for protection. Rather, they are simply a means to fasten the interior metal sections to the leather exterior.
I am of the opinion that studded leather (historically) is, in fact, a metal-majority armor.
See I take Studded as being 'not metal'...
I could stud with stone etc...
Studded causes problems for druids so I see it as metal -- however because of this I would allow Iron wood studded leather, or mithral studded leather.
But why metal plates?
If we are just assuming light reinforcement etc, then I could use a range of materials.
You'd think the use of metal would suggest a higher protective value than Hide armour, which lacks metal - yet it doesn't.
As such I am happy to roll with Studded = non metal and let it off the hook.
Studded causes problems for druids so I see it as metal -- however because of this I would allow Iron wood studded leather, or mithral studded leather.See I take Studded as being 'not metal'...
I could stud with stone etc...
I can definitely see Ironwood studded leather.
It's metal when it does this: \m/(-_-)\m/
Oh, wait. Sorry. :P
+1!
It's metal when it does this: \m/(-_-)\m/
Oh, wait. Sorry. :P
That had crossed my mind earlier...lol.
Spontaneous facemelting power chords can be detrimental to your Stealth roll.
There was armor in 3.5 that was studded leather without metal. At least, stat wise.
It was Sharkskin, from the book about ocean environments (Stormwrack?). Basically, it had the same weight and protection as studded leather, but was all shark skin. Shark teeth were embedded into, and it counted as spiked armor. Very druid friendly.
If your druid is having issues with studded armor, let them take a trip down to an ocean port and buy sharkskin armor. :)
I Noticed in Transmute Metal to Wood spell, they listed that:
So just buy Wooden Armor from vender's or make it with Craft Armory Skill.
Wooden Armor
Medium
Heavy
So i was thinking if you made a Full Plate suit of armor out of wood to begin with, say with Craft Carpentry or Craft Armor, right from the start. Then this would give a Druid with Heavy Armor feat at first level with Full Plate armor AC +7.
Would then use a Mending spell to repair the damaged AC from the natural attack rolls of 19-20, that would cause the AC lose, each time it was hit.
Say one Mending spell per AC repaired.
............
Yes, it has -2 less ac than metal
Yes, on a natural attack roll of 19-20, it then loses another -1 ac more.
But not all armor needs to be made of metal, as long as your willing to accept the weakness, and know that you will have to repair it more often.
For a Druid, still an upgrade.
As a bit of a nit-picking and an aside, you would still technically need medium armor proficiency to wear the mithral armored coat without suffering the non-proficiency penalty... It's treated as light for everything EXCEPT the proficiency. (This tidbit at the top of page 155 in my core book, just FYI.)
There are some exceptions, but those are special armors. It's caught my group a few times, and I've had to remind them.
Oh, and I apologize if you already knew and accounted for this, it's a little bit of a thread jump.
You're right, but when applying mythril to an armored coat, the check penalty disappears, meaning no nonproficiency penalty. It's a bit of a power game move, but the coat fits my character concept.
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Where does it say a mithril medium armor doesn't require a proficiency? The only way the armor check penalty, the one you refer to - the penalty from non-proficiency - disappears is via proficiency. Making something mithral doesn't magically bestow that proficiency. Rather, it makes the armor considered "light" or a category "lighter" for the purposes of class abilities and effects. Such as barbarian rage, ranger feats or bard spellcasting. You still need a proficiency to not get the maluses from wearing that armor.
Of course, some magical items are an exception to this, but that's it. Otherwise, it's feat time if you want mithril medium armor.
Where does it say a mithril medium armor doesn't require a proficiency? The only way the armor check penalty, the one you refer to - the penalty from non-proficiency - disappears is via proficiency. Making something mithral doesn't magically bestow that proficiency. Rather, it makes the armor considered "light" or a category "lighter" for the purposes of class abilities and effects. Such as barbarian rage, ranger feats or bard spellcasting. You still need a proficiency to not get the maluses from wearing that armor.
Of course, some magical items are an exception to this, but that's it. Otherwise, it's feat time if you want mithril medium armor.
If the penalty is reduced to 0 then it stands to reason that it isn't a problem right? The armored coat has a penalty low enough that it will be at 0 if it can be made of mithral. A mithral breastplate as an ACP of -1, which can be gotten rid of by taking the armor training trait.
With either of these proficiency doesn't matter because there is no penalty left to worry about -- kind of like using a mithral buckler.
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If the penalty is reduced to 0 then it stands to reason that it isn't a problem right? The armored coat has a penalty low enough that it will be at 0 if it can be made of mithral. A mithral breastplate as an ACP of -1, which can be gotten rid of by taking the armor training trait.With either of these proficiency doesn't matter because there is no penalty left to worry about -- kind of like using a mithral buckler.
blärgh, nevermind. Mixing homebrew and core here. Thought there was a separate -4 ACP for non-proficiency, instead of the regular acp, in this case nothing, applying to other rolls.
If it's made out of anything that's not hide or bone, it's metal armor.
I suppose you are using Hide to over leather too right? How about wood though or is that tree hide?
I'm just goofing LazarX. I get your point -- just wanted some fun.
ya do not forget Wood :) a druid best friend :)
Also Granite Stone, might be very brittle, weights double, and breaks very easy. But could see dwarf making armor out of it, since they have lots of building material, and are not effected by armor weight :D
ya do not forget Wood :) a druid best friend :)
Also Granite Stone, might be very brittle, weights double, and breaks very easy. But could see dwarf making armor out of it, since they have lots of building material, and are not effected by armor weight :D
Got a nitpick here -- dwarves are affected by encumbrance -- however their move speed isn't.
If they are carrying a medium load they have a maximum dex bonus to AC of +3 and a skill check penalty on Dex and Str skills of -3.
At heavy load this is +1 and -6 respectively.
Now you take the higher of his penalty or your armor penalty -- so if you are wearing full plate with a medium load you would take the +1 maximum dex bonus -- but if you were a level 7 fighter in full plate carrying a medium load you would have a maximum dex bonus of +3 (medium encumbrance) and a penalty of -3 (again from the encumbrance).
ya do not forget Wood :) a druid best friend :)
Also Granite Stone, might be very brittle, weights double, and breaks very easy. But could see dwarf making armor out of it, since they have lots of building material, and are not effected by armor weight :D
Got a nitpick here -- dwarves are affected by encumbrance -- however their move speed isn't.
If they are carrying a medium load they have a maximum dex bonus to AC of +3 and a skill check penalty on Dex and Str skills of -3.
At heavy load this is +1 and -6 respectively.
Now you take the higher of his penalty or your armor penalty -- so if you are wearing full plate with a medium load you would take the +1 maximum dex bonus -- but if you were a level 7 fighter in full plate carrying a medium load you would have a maximum dex bonus of +3 (medium encumbrance) and a penalty of -3 (again from the encumbrance).
Ok i stand corrected on the weight. Even so i could still see dwarf using Granite armor as a resource. Especial if they are dwarf mining in area for gems instead of metals.
Not all resource are available in all areas.
Ok i stand corrected on the weight. Even so i could still see dwarf using Granite armor as a resource. Especial if they are dwarf mining in area for gems instead of metals.
Not all resource are available in all areas.
Absolutely.