Reflex Save Allowed while being surprised?


Rules Questions

Liberty's Edge

When you're flat-footed during a suprise round and the enemy uses its standard action to cast a fireball... Are you allowed a Ref-save?
Can't find something in the core book. Maybe I am too tired...


You're pretty much always allowed a Reflex save regardless of when it happens to hit. Even unattended objects can in some cases get a save, so being flatfooted doesn't matter.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

When you put your hand on something hot without realizing it, what happens?

You reflexively pull back.


If I recall correctly, inanimate objects are allowed Reflex saves. Magic ones, anyway.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

A feat that rogue spell casters could use to increase the reflex save dc of spells used against flat-footed opponents would be cool.

Grand Lodge

So a paralyzed character at the center of a Fireball is permitted a save? Yes, I cannot locate anything in the RAW that says the PC is hosed, but it just seems intuitive/logical/reasonable that if you are unable to move, you could not duck out of the way.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

We were discussing a flat-footed character, not a paralyzed one. Even so, the fact that inanimate objects that cannot move get a save to reduce damage shows that paralyzed characters should also get a save.


Save throws also account for luck as well as being really good at things.

It's the same sort of thing that allows you to have a save throw when coup'd'grac (sp?) while asleep -- by all rights you should be dead, but you still get the save throw.

Unconscious? You get a will save against the mind affecting power still.

Deliberately eating highly poisonous stuff that will kill you? Still get a fortitude save.

You always get a save.

Sovereign Court

TwilightKnight wrote:
So a paralyzed character at the center of a Fireball is permitted a save? Yes, I cannot locate anything in the RAW that says the PC is hosed, but it just seems intuitive/logical/reasonable that if you are unable to move, you could not duck out of the way.

Reflex saves don't require you to be able to move at all. If I'm Jimmy Booyah the Rogue with Evasion leaning against a tree and Blasto the Evoker shoots a fireball at me I could not move an eyebrow and make my save and take no damage. Whether it's fate, sheer dumb luck, or whatever Jimmy doesn't even flinch and can take no damage.

If I'm Brutus the Mighty Fighter and The Faceless Priest of Rovagug paralyzes me with a Hold Person then next round drops a Flame Strike on me I still get a Reflex save and if the dice gods are kind (what with zero dex giving me a -5 to my base save, plus any magic I might have) I could only take half.

--Vrockslide


Does losing Dex bonus to AC also mean losing Dex bonus to Reflex saves?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

No.

Flat-Footed wrote:
A character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed, unable to react normally to the situation. A flat-footed character loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity.

Unless an ability specifically says 'target loses Dex bonus to Reflex saves' you always get your Dex to Reflex saves. I cannot think of a single instance of an ability saying that.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
No.

This is what I thought, since I never saw any rule about it. I have to admit that this is not very intuitive.


King of Vrock wrote:


Reflex saves don't require you to be able to move at all. If I'm Jimmy Booyah the Rogue with Evasion leaning against a tree and Blasto the Evoker shoots a fireball at me I could not move an eyebrow and make my save and take no damage. Whether it's fate, sheer dumb luck, or whatever Jimmy doesn't even flinch and can take no damage.

This isn't true:

Rules wrote:
At 2nd level and higher, a rogue can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If she makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the rogue is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless rogue does not gain the benefit of evasion.

Paralyzed renders you helpless meaning you don't get evasion --

you still get the save throw though.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

Actually, Jimmy was not paralyzed in the example, just choosing not to move. Which would mean voluntarily failing the saving throw, so only improved evasion would apply in that case.

Sovereign Court

Nope Jimmy Booyah is just the luckiest SOB in all of the land...

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

Along with every other rogue, monk, and ranger. :P


I wasn't clear and that is my fault -- I should have said you can lose evasion (but not the save throw) which was my point.


Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Remember that when a creature is paralyzed its Dexterity counts as 0, so that should reduce its chance of succeeding on a Reflex save.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
TwilightKnight wrote:
So a paralyzed character at the center of a Fireball is permitted a save? Yes, I cannot locate anything in the RAW that says the PC is hosed, but it just seems intuitive/logical/reasonable that if you are unable to move, you could not duck out of the way.

Yes, he's permitted a save. Of course he's got an effective Dex of Zero so it's a save with a hefty penalty but a save nonetheless.

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