We've only just started looking through the various essentials products in any depth. I wondered if some of you more on top of the rules would mind clarifying or confirming a rules difference for us (it seemed 'clear', but somewhat surprising):
The PH fighter stops enemies from moving further when he hits with an opportunity attack - he can do one of these in each opponent's turn. In contrast, the Essentials fighter doesn't have this class feature.
The PH fighter can, as an immediate interrupt, attack a marked enemy who shifts away from him or who makes an attack not including him. He can only do one immediate action per round, so if surrounded by a horde who all shift away he can only attack one of them.
The essentials fighter can also attack an enemy in his aura who shifts away from him or who makes an attack not including him (or an allied fighter) however this is an opportunity attack and consequently he can perform one per turn - thus being able to attack every opponent if surrounded by a horde who all shift away from him
Is that understanding correct?
I'll double check the online compendium in a couple of hours when I get home but what you describe sounds correct. You can only use an Immediate Action once per round but you can use an Opportunity Action Whenever its triggered so long as it is not triggered more then once for the same thing on any given creatures turn.
Now I've seen some tricky wording in almost this exact situation that essentially went down as 'can my fighter use an opportunity action and then use an immediate action from the same trigger.
When I went over the wording I felt that using action X on a trigger precluded then using action Y and I suspect this applies in all cases where a trigger allows you to do more then one distinctly different things - you have to choose.
Double checking and I realize that I'm wrong on the Opportunity actions - its once per creatures turn as you say in your post. Otherwise I don't see any errors.
Double checking and I realize that I'm wrong on the Opportunity actions - its once per creatures turn as you say in your post. Otherwise I don't see any errors.
Cheers - it seemed clear to me but an odd thing to tweak. It makes essentials fighters stickier than the PH version, but easier to ignore.
Double checking and I realize that I'm wrong on the Opportunity actions - its once per creatures turn as you say in your post. Otherwise I don't see any errors.Cheers - it seemed clear to me but an odd thing to tweak. It makes essentials fighters stickier than the PH version, but easier to ignore.
I agree its a bit odd to make them stickier but easier to ignore. There actually comes a point around Paragon where it starts to make sense for the monsters to ignore the defenders. Despite the penalties they are probably still better off smacking another PC.
Its actually worse for the Paladin.
Paladin: "if you ignore me you'll take 10 points of damage and have a -2 to hit!".
Monster: "right 10 points of my 200 hps and I can hit this cleric with AC21 at a -2 or I can try and hit your AC of 28 with no penalties...got it. So that works out to 10 hps of damage for a +5 to hit right?"
I agree its a bit odd to make them stickier but easier to ignore. There actually comes a point around Paragon where it starts to make sense for the monsters to ignore the defenders. Despite the penalties they are probably still better off smacking another PC.
That's pretty much where the Balance point comes in. Yes, a fighter's Mark who shifts, blah blah, will take damage and has to stop but it's only once per turn. This makes the fighter a bit less useful against multipul foes. He'll have to be very picky about who he marks.
The Knight doesn't have to worry about this, his aura marks everyone and he can make multipul attacks with Battle Guardian. And if he misses, they still take damage. If they move away (with a move action) it still provokes OA's from the Knight. Now this is where the Knight starts to slip, as his OA's don't really do that much. Against multipul opponents and choke points, the Knight shines. This is even doubly so if there's a Warlord and Mage (wizard) in the party that can shift enemies around.
Its actually worse for the Paladin.Paladin: "if you ignore me you'll take 10 points of damage and have a -2 to hit!".
Monster: "right 10 points of my 200 hps and I can hit this cleric with AC21 at a -2 or I can try and hit your AC of 28 with no penalties...got it. So that works out to 10 hps of damage for a +5 to hit right?"
Not really sure if you talking about the Essentials Cavalier (paladin) or the PHB paladin but if it's the latter, then I'd have to disagree. The Paladin's DC is pretty supreme. Even at lower levels, a Str-based paladin with Mighty Challenge can deal some pretty good radiant damage "FOR FREE". It requires nothing except marking a target and maintaning that Mark. Do this for a few rounds and add in some Radiant Vulnerability and it's pretty devestating on a Monster. Then add in Divine Sanction and you've got some great battle-field control.
To give some perspective, no other Defender can dish out damage freely with their marks. The only other non-conditional mark is with the Shielding Swordmage who just absorbs damage automatically. Both the Paladin and Sheidling swordmage are also two of the better Defender builds out there as well.
For my own part, I really like the Knight. I have a level 12 Knight/MC Warlord/Sword Marshal and he's pretty potent. My MBA alone deals 1d12+13 and then I use Power Attack and Battle Wrath stance and I boost that MBA to 1d12+22. Add in Power Strike if I successfully hit, another 2d12+22. Add in my +2 sunblade-fullblade on a crit and it's 34+2d12+2d6!! Hardly optimized, but fairly strong DPR for a defender.
Not really sure if you talking about the Essentials Cavalier (paladin) or the PHB paladin but if it's the latter, then I'd have to disagree. The Paladin's DC is pretty supreme. Even at lower levels, a Str-based paladin with Mighty Challenge can deal some pretty good radiant damage "FOR FREE". It requires nothing except marking a target and maintaning that Mark. Do this for a few rounds and add in some Radiant Vulnerability and it's pretty devestating on a Monster. Then add in Divine Sanction and you've got some great battle-field control.
To give some perspective, no other Defender can dish out damage freely with their marks. The only other non-conditional mark is with the Shielding Swordmage who just absorbs damage automatically. Both the Paladin and Sheidling swordmage are also two of the better Defender builds out there as well.
For my own part, I really like the Knight. I have a level 12 Knight/MC Warlord/Sword Marshal and he's pretty potent. My MBA alone deals 1d12+13 and then I use Power Attack and Battle Wrath stance and I boost that MBA to 1d12+22. Add in Power Strike if I successfully hit, another 2d12+22. Add in my +2 sunblade-fullblade on a crit and it's 34+2d12+2d6!! Hardly optimized, but fairly strong DPR for a defender.
I'm talking about a PHB 1 Paladin. I agree that if you put a bunch of stuff into your challenges they'll be good again but if you don't do that and just continue to use the basic abilities then the Paladin's, in particular, becomes much weaker. The PHB 1 Fighter still stops the enemies move and gets to hit him with hos basic version of being a defender while the Paladin is left with doing trivial damage.
I'm talking about a PHB 1 Paladin. I agree that if you put a bunch of stuff into your challenges they'll be good again but if you don't do that and just continue to use the basic abilities then the Paladin's, in particular, becomes much weaker. The PHB 1 Fighter still stops the enemies move and gets to hit him with hos basic version of being a defender while the Paladin is left with doing trivial damage.
I don't see what someone wouldn't put feats and support into their divine challenge feature. But even the basic package paladin does a better job of Defending than a fighter does because the fighter uses up his AO then he's done, any other guy he's trying to defend against can go willy-nilly and only take a -2 penalty to their attacks. The paladin on the other hand, as the options to give enemies Divine Sanction which does the same thing as Divine Challenge (albeit with not as much damage when some feats come into play). I'd take a defender who does damage automatically as an Immediate Interrupt to multiple foes instead of a Defender who can attack (possibly miss) and stop the guy in his tracks and not have the opportunity to stop others in the same round.
Each Defender has it's pro's and con's, it's how you use them to your party's advantage that makes the defender good or bad.