I have someone in my group who is playing a Barbarian/Sorcerer and planning on going into the Dragon Disciple prestige class.
He wants to take the Animal Fury rage power (PFCore pg 32), but he also gets a bite attack when he reaches the second level of Dragon Disciple(PFCore380). What he wants to do is up the dice of bite damage from a d4 to a d6 for having both bite attacks.
I've checked multiple books, and the only rules that allow this kind of 'stacking' that I can see are from the Uncanny Dodge ability and the Evasion ability.
Two questions:
1) Is there a rule in any of the Paizo books that cover stacking bite attacks with different sources?
2) If I allow this, how would it affect the game?
We're big on precedence in my game (thus the reason for my hesitation), and I would hate to throw other stuff out of whack by allowing this.
Thanks for any and all opinions.
I have someone in my group who is playing a Barbarian/Sorcerer and planning on going into the Dragon Disciple prestige class.
He wants to take the Animal Fury rage power (PFCore pg 32), but he also gets a bite attack when he reaches the second level of Dragon Disciple(PFCore380). What he wants to do is up the dice of bite damage from a d4 to a d6 for having both bite attacks.
I've checked multiple books, and the only rules that allow this kind of 'stacking' that I can see are from the Uncanny Dodge ability and the Evasion ability.
Two questions:
1) Is there a rule in any of the Paizo books that cover stacking bite attacks with different sources?
2) If I allow this, how would it affect the game?
We're big on precedence in my game (thus the reason for my hesitation), and I would hate to throw other stuff out of whack by allowing this.
Thanks for any and all opinions.
He only gets the larger amount of damage. If they both deal 1d4 then he only gets 1d4. Evasion does not stack either, but uncanny dodge does.
Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Starting at 4th level, a rogue can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. She cannot be caught flat-footed, nor does she lose her Dex bonus to AC if the attacker is invisible. She still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. A rogue with this ability can still lose her Dexterity bonus to AC if an opponent successfully uses the feint action (see Combat) against her.
If a rogue already has uncanny dodge from a different class, she automatically gains improved uncanny dodge (see below) instead.
He only gets the larger amount of damage. If they both deal 1d4 then he only gets 1d4. Evasion does not stack either, but uncanny dodge does.
Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Starting at 4th level, a rogue can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. She cannot be caught flat-footed, nor does she lose her Dex bonus to AC if the attacker is invisible. She still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. A rogue with this ability can still lose her Dexterity bonus to AC if an opponent successfully uses the feint action (see Combat) against her.
If a rogue already has uncanny dodge from a different class, she automatically gains improved uncanny dodge (see below) instead.
Thanks concerro! :) I guess my use of the term 'stacking' is rather misleading. Maybe 'upgrading' would be a better description. In other words, should I allow him to 'upgrade' his damage from 1d4 to 1d6 for taking Animal Fury and Dragon Bite.
On another note, how much damage does the Dragon Bite do?
it wouldn't hurt your game at all to allow it, but by the rules it doesn't stack.
Hey lastknightleft :) I was checking the other optional rules, and the errata to see if there was something that I could use to allow the upgrading effect. At this point, I'm leaning toward not allowing it because of the precedent it would set for all other natural attacks (to include any that would crop up because of new books, etc).
Thanks for your input.
If a rogue already has uncanny dodge from a different class, she automatically gains improved uncanny dodge (see below) instead.
Thanks concerro! :) I guess my use of the term 'stacking' is rather misleading. Maybe 'upgrading' would be a better description. In other words, should I allow him to 'upgrade' his damage from 1d4 to 1d6 for taking Animal Fury and Dragon Bite.
On another note, how much damage does the Dragon Bite do?
Dragon Bite (Ex): At 2nd level, whenever the dragon disciple uses his bloodline to grow claws, he also gains a bite attack. This is a primary natural attack that deals 1d6 points of damage (1d4 if the dragon disciple is Small), plus 1&ndash1/2 times the dragon disciples Strength modifier. Upon reaching 6th level, this bite also deals 1d6 points of energy damage. The type of damage dealt is determined by the dragon disciple's bloodline.
I would not let it go above 1d6 though since he will be getting energy damage on top of the bite anyway, at least not without improved natural attack.
Creative Director
|
The only way to get multiple bite attacks is to have multiple sets of jaws. (Or, I suppose, be under the effects of haste or something like that.)
When multiple class abilities or templates or whatever give new bite attacks, you basically get to choose which one you keep. As a general rule, the highest damage bite is what "sticks" and cancels the other bite attacks.
In the case of a barbarian dragon disciple... you're best off not taking the animal fury rage power at all, since the dragon disciple bite more or less replaces it. That said, if you want to let his two bite attacks "stack" to increase his dragon disciple bite base damage, that's fine too; it's not the rules as written, but it's a pretty cool house rule. And going from 1d4 to 1d6 is not all that significant.
Dragon Bite (Ex): At 2nd level, whenever the dragon disciple uses his bloodline to grow claws, he also gains a bite attack. This is a primary natural attack that deals 1d6 points of damage (1d4 if the dragon disciple is Small), plus 1&ndash1/2 times the dragon disciples Strength modifier. Upon reaching 6th level, this bite also deals 1d6 points of energy damage. The type of damage dealt is determined by the dragon disciple's bloodline.I would not let it go above 1d6 though since he will be getting energy damage on top of the bite anyway, at least not without improved natural attack.
I have the first printing of the PF book, and it doesn't list the damage. Hopefully that's in the errata. If it isn't, can you please cite your source so that I can use it?
Secondly, I forgot all about Improved Natural Attack. This feat does the work for me. I'll make him take it to improve whatever natural attack he wants. Thanks for your insight!
I have the first printing of the PF book, and it doesn't list the damage. Hopefully that's in the errata. If it isn't, can you please cite your source so that I can use it?Secondly, I forgot all about Improved Natural Attack. This feat does the work for me. I'll make him take it to improve whatever natural attack he wants. Thanks for your insight!
My link is the PRD. Click this link.
Nice. I've added that to favorites. And the Dragon Bite damage does appear in the new errata, fyi. :)
|
it wouldn't hurt your game at all to allow it, but by the rules it doesn't stack.Hey lastknightleft :) I was checking the other optional rules, and the errata to see if there was something that I could use to allow the upgrading effect. At this point, I'm leaning toward not allowing it because of the precedent it would set for all other natural attacks (to include any that would crop up because of new books, etc).
Thanks for your input.
Meh, if you're worried about that, I'm pretty sure that stacking classes or alternate features to get multiple claw attacks so that your damage bumps is no more hard then just taking the imp. natural attack feat. If you're worried about it, you can always just say that your houserule only allows for the stacking once, and if they get any further versions of the same natural attack they don't increase further. Still, you're well within the rules to say that they don't stack, that way you don't have to worry about them stacking it, then taking a feat, then buying a magic item to increase it again, I just see that kind of thing as being an expenditure of their resources anyways so I don't see it as a big deal even if they did do something like that and wind up with a d12 bite attack (just describe them to have jaws like Venom from spider man).
|
That said, if you want to let his two bite attacks "stack" to increase his dragon disciple bite base damage, that's fine too; it's not the rules as written, but it's a pretty cool house rule. And going from 1d4 to 1d6 is not all that significant.
Yeah, unless your bbn has Greater Grapple which allows multiple grapple checks in a turn. And Animal Fury which allows the bite as a way of gaining +2 on grapple checks. And nothing that explicitly says the Animal Fury is only once per round so the bbn could potentially use it on every grapple (it's Ex instead of Su).
None of which matters unless you have a bbn with a +12 Str bonus when raging -- and has improved unarmed strike, two secondary claws (secondary when fighting unarmed), two secondary bites (which is now one, thank-you-very-much), and an amulet of mighty fists so that every one of the above does additional shock/fire damage!!
|
|
That said, if you want to let his two bite attacks "stack" to increase his dragon disciple bite base damage, that's fine too; it's not the rules as written, but it's a pretty cool house rule. And going from 1d4 to 1d6 is not all that significant.Yeah, unless your bbn has Greater Grapple which allows multiple grapple checks in a turn. And Animal Fury which allows the bite as a way of gaining +2 on grapple checks. And nothing that explicitly says the Animal Fury is only once per round so the bbn could potentially use it on every grapple (it's Ex instead of Su).
None of which matters unless you have a bbn with a +12 Str bonus when raging -- and has improved unarmed strike, two secondary claws (secondary when fighting unarmed), two secondary bites (which is now one, thank-you-very-much), and an amulet of mighty fists so that every one of the above does additional shock/fire damage!!
Um you do realize that all of that can be done without the stacking of the bite attack and the only thing the stacking gave him was an additional 1 damage on average per attack.