1E question


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This seems like the best spot for it. Over on the PFS forums, I nearly derailed a topic into this point.

Where was it ever explained that the pages of a Magic User's spellbook could be used as spell scrolls. I know that from 2E on this was against the rules, and I've never been able to find a reference to this 'trick' in the 1E books.

I'm not looking for "what people remember" here either, I really want a specific book and page number. I just checked over the PHB and DMG and couldn't find a blessed thing.


I don't believe the rule actually exist in 1st edition, thus at the time I had to house rule it. For 3rd edition it was the same situation. As for 2nd edition, I don't recall it being in the PHB either. I didn't buy much for 2nd edition supplements so I have no idea if it was eventually covered or not.

Dark Archive

I think (think) it was derived as a houserule from the DMG

DMG pgs 117-118 wrote:
As a spell is read from the scroll, its letters and figures writhe and glow, the magic is effected, and then the lines fade and are gone forever. (In order for a magic-user or illusionist to transcribe a heretofore unknown spell from a scroll to his or her books, a read magic and then a period of time equal to that necessary to place the spell on the scroll are required; this likewise causes the spell to disappear from the scroll.)

So my guess is that if they get transferred to your spell book they were then used up - thus the spells in the MUs spell book worked that way in reverse if you needed to cast them that way.

When checking on copying spells from other MU/Illusionist there is no indication that one of their spells disappear as they go into your book as they are transcribed, if that was the case a scroll would work as a better medium.


Auxmaulous wrote:

I think (think) it was derived as a houserule from the DMG

DMG pgs 117-118 wrote:
As a spell is read from the scroll, its letters and figures writhe and glow, the magic is effected, and then the lines fade and are gone forever. (In order for a magic-user or illusionist to transcribe a heretofore unknown spell from a scroll to his or her books, a read magic and then a period of time equal to that necessary to place the spell on the scroll are required; this likewise causes the spell to disappear from the scroll.)

So my guess is that if they get transferred to your spell book they were then used up - thus the spells in the MUs spell book worked that way in reverse if you needed to cast them that way.

When checking on copying spells from other MU/Illusionist there is no indication that one of their spells disappear as they go into your book as they are transcribed, if that was the case a scroll would work as a better medium.

Right. The thing is, and it bugs me way more than is reasonable, is that everyone quotes the idea like it's chapter-and-verse, written in the books as a real rule and try to use it to justify doing the same thing. A lot.

Dark Archive

Chris Kenney wrote:
I'm not looking for "what people remember" here either, I really want a specific book and page number. I just checked over the PHB and DMG and couldn't find a blessed thing.

You'll need to delve into 1st edition's Unearthed Arcana for this one.

Magic-Users and Illusionists can read spells from their spellbooks as they would a scroll at the cost of ruining (i.e. losing) said spell; there is also a 1% per spell level culmative chance of this action costing the ruin and loss of the spell immediately preceeding and the spell directly following the spell used in this fashion.

So a 1st level spell being read from as spellbook causes the spell to be permantently lost and would have a 1% chance of ruining the spells before and after it in the spell book. A 9th level spell used in this manner would have a 9% chance of causing the same effect.

There is a final danger. There is a flat 1% chance that any time a spell is read in this fashion that the entire spellbook is ruined and all spells are lost.

Have fun with that.

Dark Archive

The Baron is right!. Damn I forgot to check UA -since it was so end run of 1st, I always forget that damn book!

UA pg 80 wrote:

In extremis, the DM may allow a magic-user to cast a spell directly from any sort of spell book just as if the book were a scroll. The book must be of appropriate sort so that the spell matches the profession of the caster, i.e. magic-user spell, magic-user spell book. The caster must be able to know and use the spell in question. (Note that in this regard, reading directly from a spell book differs from the use of scroll spells.)

Direct casting of a spell from a spell book automatically destroys that spell. There is also a 1% chance per level of the spell that the spells immediately preceding and following the spell cast will likewise be destroyed.

There is an additional 1% chance that the casting of a spell directly from a spell book will destroy the entire book. A permanency spell, for instance, would not prevent a spell from "disappearing" when cast in this manner; even though writing might remain on the page, that writing will no longer be magical in nature. These strictures apply whether a spell caster is using his or her personal book or the book of another. Read magic is required for one magic-user to read another magic-user’s spell book, and a magic-user can learn a spell by reading it from another's book. This learning process requires 2-8 hours of study per level of the spell, after which time the spell is learned and thereby immediately usable by the magic-user who did the studying

Honestly - I don't have an issue with this. If a PC is willing to give up his spells forever (in theory) just to survive a very bad situation it should be his choice. Just by surviving he may get a chance at picking up a new book so his career isn't ruined, on the other hand dead is still dead.


My issue comes more with the way it's treated fairly casually, and to be honest, always as if it were the current rule. As a GM I don't allow it because, especially given the change from the "Memorized" nomenclature to "Prepared" and the statements in a few places that the spells transcribed on scrolls are of the complete, prepared spell and not the formula to prepare it with, it doesn't make sense. That it's RAW not to allow it just seems to cause more headaches.

Thanks, though. At least knowing where the reference is helps me out.

EDIT: Also, interestingly, nobody's ever 'remembered' the "Oh, yeah, and this might destroy your spellbook" angle when it's been brought up to me, even during the 2E era (when this would still definitely have been in the spirit of the game)

The Exchange

This was such a widely used house rule, that in truth we still use it in Pathfinder.

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