Rolling Dice for PFS


Pathfinder Society

Liberty's Edge 1/5

Quick question and my apologies if this has been covered already.

I judged a handful of PFS games at a recent convention and in a few games two different players used a dice rolling program on their I-Pad instead of actually rolling dice.

So my question is - Is using an I-pad or computer program acceptable for a table top PFS game?

Granted for PFS play by post or on-line games you have no choice, but while sitting at the table, is this acceptable?

As a GM, I cannot see what they roll unlike the other players. I must also mention that the two players who used the I-pads are very trustworthy and I had no concerns with cheating with them. I am not familiar with all of the programs out there, or all of the players, so I cannot comment on the ease of cheating with these types of systems or who would or would not do it.

For a home campaign, I wouldn't allow it, because I am an old school chuck the dice and see where they fall kind of guy. But for a PFS game, I will go with whatever is allowed. The Core Rulebook is clear on having to roll a 1d20, but that obviously can't happen in all cases.

What about the GM using this program and just announcing the results? I wonder if the players would like that or not? I toss out all of my combat rolls in front of the players.

Any thoughts or ruling?

The Exchange 5/5

I don't think that there has ever been an "offical" position posted (I could be wrong). However, I have to be able to justify all my dice -- so I'm a toss the dice person. Personally, don't see anything super wrong with a dice program -- I just don't prefer it.

The caveat to electronic things like that at the table is a penchant to surf the net while gaming.. that I have a problems with.


I would not allow it, no matter how trustworthy the person may be. If the GM cannot see the roll, then it is not an official roll to me. Also, there is always the chance that the app was written, either accidentally or on purpose, to roll high. I would rather trust dice that may not be shaped or weighted perfectly rather than a program I know nothing about and cannot watch make the roll.

Shadow Lodge 5/5

Dave the Barbarian wrote:
I am not familiar with all of the programs out there, or all of the players, so I cannot comment on the ease of cheating with these types of systems or who would or would not do it.

I know for a fact that there is a dice roller for the Android platform which allows for "luck" to be added to your dice fudging them one way or another. Knowing this, I'd be concerned with any player not rolling their dice in front of me.

If somebody sat down at my table with an iPad and a dice roller I'd hand them my extra set of player dice and ask them to roll on the table like everybody else. But that's just me.

Sovereign Court 2/5

Another concept to worry about is that there is no such thing as a truly random number generator program. Also, there are many programs out there and some are better than others. Most of them also have an anti-streak line written in them. In other words, when the the results start getting skewed toward one end, the program automatically modifies the future rolls to create a statistical average. All of these factors would make me very hesitant to allow those programs to be used except in online games where they are the only option.

Grand Lodge 2/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Galahad0430 wrote:
Another concept to worry about is that there is no such thing as a truly random number generator program. Also, there are many programs out there and some are better than others. Most of them also have an anti-streak line written in them. In other words, when the the results start getting skewed toward one end, the program automatically modifies the future rolls to create a statistical average. All of these factors would make me very hesitant to allow those programs to be used except in online games where they are the only option.

+1. Find other interesting ways to justify your purchase :)

Although (hint) I think there's a small niche market for Paizo to step in with an iWhatever app which was programmed by them and approved by them. Should be a pretty quick return on the programming investment. IE: We trust the code because we wrote it, so GMs can too.

But seriously, find other interesting ways to justify your purchase :)

Liberty's Edge 1/5

This would ultimately fall upon the judge to decide. I personally would need the players to all use dice to keep everthing even. I always carry tons of dice. There is no way to verify that any dice program is actually a dice rolling engine that accounts evenly for all values between 0 and 19.


I leave this to the discretion of individual GMs. At my table, with me as a GM, I would say no. But that's not a decision I'd make for the entire Society.

Shadow Lodge

Shar Tahl wrote:
This would ultimately fall upon the judge to decide. I personally would need the players to all use dice to keep everthing even. I always carry tons of dice. There is no way to verify that any dice program is actually a dice rolling engine that accounts evenly for all values between 0 and 19.

Well, there's no way to verify that a physical die has a truly uniform distribution either, yet we still continue to roll them, and say we trust the die more than a program ;-)

Grand Lodge

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Joshua J. Frost wrote:
I leave this to the discretion of individual GMs. At my table, with me as a GM, I would say no. But that's not a decision I'd make for the entire Society.

Is this, or will it be, written into the PFS Org Play guide? I'm just thinking that having this written in there somewhere would help back-up the judge(s) when a player gets fussy because they can't use their $500 iWhatsit in a con game.

-Skeld

1/5 **

As a judge, I wouldn't use it myself. In fact, I roll oversize dice in plain view (except where rolls needs to be kept "secret" -- stealth, for example).

I would likewise ask players at my table to refrain, but I doubt I'd refuse to let them play if they insisted.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
ArVagor wrote:
Well, there's no way to verify that a physical die has a truly uniform distribution either, yet we still continue to roll them, and say we trust the die more than a program ;-)

I'd go so far as to say, the average random number generator is more statistically random than the average d20 at your local gaming store. The method for producing polyhedral dice just isn't that precise and they are only going to get less random as they are used. (There is a reason casinos replace dice regularly and they don't use dice with rounded edges.) And that doesn't even look at how the dice toss method the player is using which is probably the most significant factor in how random a die roll is.

That said its easier (and more difficult to catch from a GM perspective) to create a shady program that skews rolls in your favor than to skew physical die rolls particularly if you don't have access to the code.

Irregardless as a GM, and as a fellow player, I vastly prefer it when most die rolls (or number generator results) are visible to everyone playing the game. As I tend to think the vast majority of 'mistakes' occur due to bad math (intentional or otherwise) rather than from dice themselves.

1/5

Agreed. Even though a true PNG program is far more random than any physical object, unless I can see the roll in front of me I'm not likely to accept it as a judge. Now, if someone has a method for getting me rolls from a PNG they can't fix, without resorting to something really dumb like having to check my email in the middle of the game, I'd probably let them do it. Putting the output of the program up on a projector might be enough.

Dark Archive

Chris Kenney wrote:
Now, if someone has a method for getting me rolls from a PNG they can't fix, without resorting to something really dumb like having to check my email in the middle of the game, I'd probably let them do it. Putting the output of the program up on a projector might be enough.

Passing you the iPad wouldn't be?

One thing I'll say for using an iPAD for this, as apposed to just a laptop is that 1) the dice apps are available in a central place that's easily checked at the start of the game. 2) They are small enough, and manipulable enough that they can just be passed arround. The app I have also makes noise when you roll, so you can hear if they keep hitting roll, roll, roll until they get a nice result....

All that said, I'm in the keep the polyhedrals camp.

Shadow Lodge

Chris Kenney wrote:
[...]Now, if someone has a method for getting me rolls from a PNG they can't fix, without resorting to something really dumb like having to check my email in the middle of the game, I'd probably let them do it. [...]

Some times not possible depending on the location and your wireless access, but check out random.org -- it uses atmospheric noise as the source of randomness o.O

1/5

Nevynxxx wrote:
Chris Kenney wrote:
Now, if someone has a method for getting me rolls from a PNG they can't fix, without resorting to something really dumb like having to check my email in the middle of the game, I'd probably let them do it. Putting the output of the program up on a projector might be enough.

Passing you the iPad wouldn't be?

One thing I'll say for using an iPAD for this, as apposed to just a laptop is that 1) the dice apps are available in a central place that's easily checked at the start of the game. 2) They are small enough, and manipulable enough that they can just be passed arround. The app I have also makes noise when you roll, so you can hear if they keep hitting roll, roll, roll until they get a nice result....

All that said, I'm in the keep the polyhedrals camp.

Not all such apps make noise, and a number of people are wary of handing a total stranger a 500+ dollar piece of tech frequently. Plus I don't keep up on how recently particular devices have been jailbroken and so on, so even an app that looks legitimate may not be.

Yeah, I'm probably overly paranoid about it.


ArVagor wrote:
Chris Kenney wrote:
[...]Now, if someone has a method for getting me rolls from a PNG they can't fix, without resorting to something really dumb like having to check my email in the middle of the game, I'd probably let them do it. [...]
Some times not possible depending on the location and your wireless access, but check out random.org -- it uses atmospheric noise as the source of randomness o.O

I used them to roll up 3 characters. All 3 had an 18, 2 16s and an 8. My GM wont let me use it.

Shadow Lodge 5/5

Chris Kenney wrote:

Not all such apps make noise, and a number of people are wary of handing a total stranger a 500+ dollar piece of tech frequently. Plus I don't keep up on how recently particular devices have been jailbroken and so on, so even an app that looks legitimate may not be.

Yeah, I'm probably overly paranoid about it.

I am just as worried, if not more so, about the programs themselves. As I mentioned, I know for a fact (because I downloaded it to see for myself) that one of the programs for the Android platform has a built in "luck" system for the randomizer which will adjust rolls upwards. I don't have the time or interest to vet every single program and know whether it has a cheat like that built in, so the answer is simple.

At my table you roll dice. If you don't like that, you can find a different table.

Liberty's Edge 1/5

I am going to go with that same approach. At my table, you will roll dice. I don't want a $500 toy broken while sliding it around and I don't have the time or the energy to research what is legit and what is not. Not to mention, I think the players would revolt if I used such a device as GM. How would they know that my program is correct?

Bring a set of dice, you will need them.

1/5

Note that, as a GM if I need to roll a fairly large number of dice I may resort to a PNG. Usually in this case the one in OpenOffice does nicely and I can set it up in a spreadsheet ahead of the session.

Haven't run into a case in PFS where a scenario calls for this yet, though.

Grand Lodge 5/5 ****

This is a very interesting discussion. My first instinctive reaction was - no - I also don't like electronic dice-rolling. I even tend to bring my own selfmade dicetray to the table - so players can roll in the middle of the table.

But the more I follow it and the more I hear the arguments against it - the more I'm acually inclined to allow electronic dice rolling at my table. Yes - I even thought - would it help me at the table as I have an iPad as GM anyhow.

The bit I was aware off before - electronic dice can be more easily faked.

The bit that is new - build in luck and other issues that seem (?) not well advertised. It would be useful here to hear about programs that are flawed and generate too high numbers when it isn't well advertised that they do so. Therefore I would appreciate information about good and bad diceroll programs.

But back to the issue. I would ask my players - have you tested the program. Are you sure it really produces random numbers.

If the answer is yes - then I can't see a real reason to ban them at my table. This is a matter of trust. If someone shows up at my table with a PFS number I trust him he isn't a cheater.

Being able to observe the role / see the numbers is a valid but secondary concern. After all I haven't banned anyone so far at my table to use his shiny Pathfinder Adventure Path dice made by Q-Workshop. They are beautyful - but honestly - I can't tell what one of my players rolled in the open if he is on the other side of the table. I always have to ask the player and trust the number he tells me. So to a certain degree it would be a double standard to allow these nice and shiny dice that even seem endorsed by Paizo while disallowing an electronic version.

I'm probably in the minority here with this viewpoint.

Interestingly by answering here I also researched quickly the ways how to cheat with real dice. Interesting read to learn about spin rolling, drop rolling or palm rolling and how with enough training you can make it look natural and non random.

All I can say is - someone using an electronic dice places himself under a lot of scrutiny. He will be trusted less - so he will be found out soon enough if he is doing so to cheat. It might even flush him out earlier. A sad day when this happens. But there are too many other ways around how cheating can be done. Banning electronic dice probably won't influence it much apart of the feel good factor.

Thod

Edit: As an add-on - here is an interesting discussion on some other boards about Cheating with real dice You feel afterwards that most forms of real dice should be banned as well ...

Shadow Lodge 5/5

Thod wrote:
Being able to observe the role / see the numbers is a valid but secondary concern. After all I haven't banned anyone so far at my table to use his shiny Pathfinder Adventure Path dice made by Q-Workshop. They are beautyful - but honestly - I can't tell what one of my players rolled in the open if he is on the other side of the table. I always have to ask the player and trust the number he tells me. So to a certain degree it would be a double standard to allow these nice and shiny dice that even seem endorsed by Paizo while disallowing an electronic version.

Which is interesting because I have a set of Q-Workshop dice that I absolutely love (they thematically are awesome) and I deliberately avoid using them because they're hard to read, even for me sitting right over them. I have no problems with a GM asking a player not to use them.

There are tons of methods to learn to fake dice rolls, but they take time and training to learn. Any schmo off the street can use "Henchman" and pop the luck setting to "high".


Skeld wrote:
Joshua J. Frost wrote:
I leave this to the discretion of individual GMs. At my table, with me as a GM, I would say no. But that's not a decision I'd make for the entire Society.

Is this, or will it be, written into the PFS Org Play guide? I'm just thinking that having this written in there somewhere would help back-up the judge(s) when a player gets fussy because they can't use their $500 iWhatsit in a con game.

-Skeld

Like I said, I leave this to the discretion of individual GMs. I don't think I need to codify who's in charge of the table.

5/5

Joshua J. Frost wrote:
I don't think I need to codify who's in charge of the table.

My wife?


Spoiler:
Must. Remain. Professional. Must. Not. Make. Joke.

The Exchange 5/5

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Kyle Baird wrote:
Joshua J. Frost wrote:
I don't think I need to codify who's in charge of the table.
My wife?

+1... but mine tends to DM too... so it's kinda a double blow :(

5/5

Alizor wrote:
Kyle Baird wrote:
Joshua J. Frost wrote:
I don't think I need to codify who's in charge of the table.
My wife?
+1... but mine tends to DM too... so it's kinda a double blow :(

Double blow? Oh dear god... must resist...

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