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If I Sunder the big bad leaders +5 Plate Armour of fast moves, silence and stealth - does that take it off the Reward for the module? Does it reduce the cash gained at the end?
I don't believe it does. Only if you missed the encounter entirely for some non-Sundering reason would you miss out on it.
A similar question might be, if I use that arrow of Derro slaying, is it really gone?
I assume you mean during the course of the mod you find said arrow and use it. That's totally acceptable and does not remove it from the Chronicle. You should make every effort to use consumables (potions, scrolls, wands, etc) for 'free' during the mod because if you want them after the mod you have to buy them.
From page 23 of the Guide:
After the scenario, the GM checks which items you and your fellow Pathfinders discovered, and each of these items immediately become available for purchase by all party members. Items not discovered in play are blacked out or lined out by the GM.
My interpretation of discovered is that the player characters have to gain possession of this item or it does not count. You sundering the armor before you can take it from the enemy would cross it off the list just the same if the GM has the enemy use a potion or scroll in their possession before the PCs can defeat them and take possession of the item. Or in other words, to me, destroying something possessed by the enemy before it can make it into your hands is the same as if the enemy ran away with their gear.
Now, whenever Josh gets a chance to check on and post to the message boards again, he may come in and say the opposite, but this is my interpretation til then: If you never possessed it, then you can't buy it.
Oh, and before someone can bring up the "reward creative solutions" section, I do not believe that running around and mindlessly sundering all the good gear is being creative.
Nah, sunder anything you want that does not look like it will appear on the chronicle sheet and you will be fine in a game of mine. :) But in your example, if you are playing in a high enough level scenario where the BBEG may be wearing +5 Plate, then the party better have a lot of other options to take him down other than just physical attacks.
Oh, and I went back and edited that sentence a bit, since I realized that my entire thought did not make it into the post. It might be more agreeable to you now. ;)
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Hmm. To me "discovered" is much more open minded than that. It seems like you are replacing it with "acquired".
I also do not mark off items that the opposition has used in a fight. If you run it that way, it seems to me that you are punishing the players by running the opposition to their fullest. I'm pretty sure if you look you will find examples of chronicle sheets where potions that the enemy will have already consumed before encountering the players are listed on the chronicle sheet. This would mean it is only there to taunt them or to justify an effect they had to fight against which they are not really meant to gain access to.
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I'd say that considering you can scribe a scroll or drink a potion and still have access to the item, it'd be fine. In fact, if an opponent drinks said potion, it still would be available. Verisimilitude isn't 100%, but it's how the rules for OP work in my opinion.
The only case where you wouldn't get access to the item should be when you simply cannot "defeat" the encounter or skip it by not meeting the encounter in the first place (which is different than passing by negotiation, diplomacy, bluff, etc.).
If that is true, then Josh needs to note it in the Guide. The only examples he uses for non-consumables is this:
For example, if the evil Hellknight faced at the end of a scenario is wielding a +1 frost longsword and he falls to your blades and spells, the sword is claimed for that adventure.
and
If during a scenario you find the +1 frost longsword from the examples above and decide to use it until the end of the adventure, but then you get disarmed or it gets sundered, you are still able to buy that item off the chronicle sheet at the end of the scenario.
If you sunder it before you acquire it, then you cannot use it for the rest of the scenario.
Now, on a sort of side note, if the only way left to defeat this enemy is to sunder their weapon or armor and the GM knows it is on the chronicle sheet, then the GM needs to get creative and either slip in an alternative way for the PCs to find a copy of the item elsewhere in the scenario, or just say that while the sunder did it's job, the item was not quite destroyed and is still functional enough that they can still buy the item later from the Society, like normal. But if someone is sundering just to sunder, then my judgment is that it will not be available from that chronicle sheet.
Finding the item, regardless of what happens to the item, means you can buy it off the chronicle sheet. To use the OP's example, if you destroy the BBEG's awesome armor in the process of defeating said BBEG, then you still have the opportunity to buy the BBEG's armor off the chronicle sheet at the end of the scenario.
Finding the item, regardless of what happens to the item, means you can buy it off the chronicle sheet. To use the OP's example, if you destroy the BBEG's awesome armor in the process of defeating said BBEG, then you still have the opportunity to buy the BBEG's armor off the chronicle sheet at the end of the scenario.
Cool. It was not something I had thought about before this thread as I have almost never played with people who use sunder, and those who do make sure to not sunder on the good stuff. :)
Finding the item, regardless of what happens to the item, means you can buy it off the chronicle sheet. To use the OP's example, if you destroy the BBEG's awesome armor in the process of defeating said BBEG, then you still have the opportunity to buy the BBEG's armor off the chronicle sheet at the end of the scenario.Cool. It was not something I had thought about before this thread as I have almost never played with people who use sunder, and those who do make sure to not sunder on the good stuff. :)
Just to be clear, in addition to being able to buy the item
off the chronicle sheet, do the Pathfinders receive the goldassociated with consumed/destroyed/sundered/etc. items?
If yes, is it legitimate to use any gold found in the adventure
and/or items sold for gold to pay for consumables or maybe
spellcasting, without subtracting from the final gold earned?
This would help to fund Raise Dead and similar spellcasting.
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Just to be clear, in addition to being able to buy the item
off the chronicle sheet, do the Pathfinders receive the gold
associated with consumed/destroyed/sundered/etc. items?
Yes.
If yes, is it legitimate to use any gold found in the adventure
and/or items sold for gold to pay for consumables or maybe
spellcasting, without subtracting from the final gold earned?
This would help to fund Raise Dead and similar spellcasting.
No as per this thread.
Just to be clear, in addition to being able to buy the item
off the chronicle sheet, do the Pathfinders receive the gold
associated with consumed/destroyed/sundered/etc. items?Yes.
No as per this thread.If yes, is it legitimate to use any gold found in the adventure
and/or items sold for gold to pay for consumables or maybe
spellcasting, without subtracting from the final gold earned?
This would help to fund Raise Dead and similar spellcasting.
Thanks for the pointer. Sometimes it can be tricky to find details.
It sounds like we have the following rules, combining both posts.
consumables - go ahead and use it, no penalty on chronicle sheet
- note that consumables are things like potions, scrolls, and wands
gold - if you spend any, then deduct it from your chronicle sheet
sundered - unclear - you gain access, but it is not specified if
you lose the gold associated with the item - needs clarification
- assumption - use consumable rules - no penalty for sundering
sold - unclear - can you sell a found item to pay for Raise Dead?
- assumption - items sold turn into "gold" - which cannot be used
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sundered - unclear - you gain access, but it is not specified if you lose the gold associated with the item - needs clarification - assumption - use consumable rules - no penalty for sundering
I think Josh would have pointed that out with his original clarification. In my mind the same 'mending' that takes place off screen to allow it on your Chronicle also yields full sale value.
sold - unclear - can you sell a found item to pay for Raise Dead? - assumption - items sold turn into "gold" - which cannot be used
Actually I think this is pretty clear as per the Guide.
PCs can also sell off gear at 50% of its listed value to raise money to come back from the dead, though they can only do so in a settlement and they cannot sell off any items found during the current scenario that they haven’t purchased.
You have three choices as far as I know, use PA for the raise dead, already have enough gold from before the scenario started to cover the cost, or your party members can chip in and have it cast. Also, as far as I know, if it is one of those scenarios that lets you have the chance to sell stuff in between encounters, then that gold should be available to you to use as well. It would just be subtracted from the gold award on your chronicle sheet if it was used.
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You have three choices as far as I know, use PA for the raise dead, already have enough gold from before the scenario started to cover the cost, or your party members can chip in and have it cast. Also, as far as I know, if it is one of those scenarios that lets you have the chance to sell stuff in between encounters, then that gold should be available to you to use as well. It would just be subtracted from the gold award on your chronicle sheet if it was used.
I would disagree.
While not implicitly stated, the fact that you can still get XP if you die would imply to me that the character, if brought back to life at the end of the scenario would also receive treasure rewards for said scenario. Since they receive treasure, the gold earned should be applicable in the raise dead attempt. It would warrant clarification by Josh though.
I am strong fighter. I want sunder. Sunder good.
OK, so I normally don't talk this way, but I wanted to get your attention. I've heard two different - and in fact opposed - things from a variety of people and before I start throwing it around every combat, I'd like someone official to weigh in.
If I Sunder the big bad leaders +5 Plate Armour of fast moves, silence and stealth - does that take it off the Reward for the module? Does it reduce the cash gained at the end?
To be clear, I'm not talking about the broken condition, I'm talking about a 6th level Fighter destroying the item and taking the balance of their damage and applying it to the victim inside the tin can.
Also, to avoid side-tracking, no discussions about whether this is a good use of the Fighter's attacks, feats, etc. and yes I know most things are in reach with PA before they are on the list. For a moment, forget all that.
I think I want to be a Sundering Fool (TM), I just also want to know if I'm pissing off everyone at the table.
So, if I destroy something, is it really gone? A similar question might be, if I use that arrow of Derro slaying, is it really gone?
Some DM's are of the opinion that if a player sunders an item that the DM should replace it to keep the party within the WBL. In that case sunder away. Others like myself don't make other magic items spontaneously appear somewhere else in the world because a player wants to break everything. That does not mean sunder does not have it's place, but in game where the "you broke it, you bought it" logic applies I dont think the party would be happy with you.
In short ask the DM how he handles sunder.
edit: I just realized this is a Society question, so uh nevermind.
From page 22 of the Guide, raising from the dead cannot be done between scenarios because a GM has to be present for it:
If a PC cannot be raised from the dead, he is dead and
is removed from play. In this instance, the GM will need
to report that the character in question died during the
course of play (see Chapter 12), and the player will need
to make a new 1st-level character to continue play in
Pathfinder Society.
If you are dead at the end of the scenario and not brought back to life before the session is officially wrapped up, then the GM reports you as dead and your character can no longer be played.
And you only get the XP if you are brought back to life:
In any scenario, so long as a PC played three of the
encounters before dying and is brought back to life, he is
awarded XP for that scenario. PCs who do not return to
the realm of the living are awarded no XP for the scenario
in which they died.
It also says this about selling off items found, so I was wrong about being able to do it before the end of the scenario:
PCs can also sell off gear at 50%
of its listed value to raise money to come back from the
dead, though they can only do so in a settlement and
they cannot sell off any items found during the current
scenario that they haven’t purchased.
sundered - unclear - you gain access, but it is not specified if you lose the gold associated with the item - needs clarification - assumption - use consumable rules - no penalty for sunderingI think Josh would have pointed that out with his original clarification. In my mind the same 'mending' that takes place off screen to allow it on your Chronicle also yields full sale value.
sold - unclear - can you sell a found item to pay for Raise Dead? - assumption - items sold turn into "gold" - which cannot be usedActually I think this is pretty clear as per the Guide.
PCs can also sell off gear at 50% of its listed value to raise money to come back from the dead, though they can only do so in a settlement and they cannot sell off any items found during the current scenario that they haven’t purchased.
Zizazat, thanks for the pointer to this relevant text.
"they cannot sell off any items found during the current
scenario that they haven't purchased." - PFS Guide (p.22)
This is under "Character Death" but it seems reasonable
that it applies to consumables/spellcasting/bribes/etc.
Here is my updated summary of what you can do with loot.
consumables - go ahead and use it, no penalty on chronicle sheet
gold - if you spend any, then deduct it from your chronicle sheet
sold - you cannot sell any found items during the current scenario
- well, you can buy them at 100% and then sell them again at 50%
I am still unclear on if you get the gold for sundered
equipment or just the access on the chronicle sheet,
but again the spirit seems to be you do get the gold.
Enevhar, why are you so active in the PFS forums when you don't have a registered PFS character? (just curious)
Ya know, I realized that no matter how I would word my reply, that it would come off sounding not at all the way it was supposed to and would make me sound snobby or elitist or like I looked down on others around here, because none of those are true. So let's just say that while I have not played in an official PFS game where the registering of characters would be required, when I do find a game or setting that I enjoy and plan on playing, that I read everything I can find about so that I can try to answer questions as correctly as possible, whether it is in posts on here or when talking to fellow gamers in person.