|
First question: You would not be able to use the feat until you met the prereqs again. You still have the feat, but it is unavailable to use.
Second: As long as your ability score meets the prerequisite, you can take the feat. No matter if you bump it up from racial bonuses, or level advancement. If you have an 11 Str and put on a +2 Str item, you can take the feat.
yup, that's how it works
So you would even allow a character with 11 Strenght and a +2 Strenght Belt to take Power Attack as bonus feat?
And the second he remove / lost his belt, he can't use it anymore?
Yes, it is weird, but it is how it works.
If you wear an item that gives you a bonus to Ability Scores for 24h+ the bonus is as useful as a permanent increase.However, don't relly too much on magic items. Dispel Magic, Antimagic fields and that kind of stuff can disable those items.
Use it for high level feats with high requirements, as Greater Two Weapon Fighting, or secondary feats like Expertise. If you loose your enhancement bonuses you can still put a fight.
|
However, don't relly too much on magic items. Dispel Magic, Antimagic fields and that kind of stuff can disable those items.
I'm glad to see someone else express that opinion. I've seen too many posts on here that make the assumption that you HAVE to have at minimum a +X weapon at level Y to be viable, etc. And so many of the power comparisons here have characters that are overloaded with magical equipment.
To me a true comparison between the power levels of two characters would involve minimal equipment, and then only mundane equipment (unless it's something special like a wizard's bonded object). For example, a fighter who has specialized in the greatsword should be armed with a greatsword...but a regular greatsword, not a +infinity vorpal sword of insta-gib. That's not comparing two characters, that's comparing which character picked the best magic items.
can anyone link to actual rules for this in the SRD or the books?
Ability Score Bonuses: "Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed."
Prerequisites: "Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat. A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he gains the prerequisite.
A character can't use a feat if he loses a prerequisite, but he does not lose the feat itself. If, at a later time, he regains the lost prerequisite, he immediately regains full use of the feat that prerequisite enables."
does this mean a Synthethist can take Power Attack with 7 STR, if the Eidolon has > 12, considering they are considered as one being, fused together?
furthermore, can anyone link to actual rules for this in the SRD or the books?
Well the issue is the 24 hours clause. Good luck on those forced march checks because you'll only get the bonus after making 16 of them.
@erik542 what is the issue? the way I read that, is that I can power attack after being fused for 24h. I will not release the Eidolon at any time, unless it is reduced to zero hit points (and once it gets low on HP, I can sacrifice my own HP to keep it alive) or banished. if my party is going through that hard a battle, I can only hope that we will be resting for 24h after that.
I think he's saying that you would need to keep the Eidolon summoned for 24 hours before being able to use his ability score to qualify for a feat. This is difficult because the Eidolon is banished when you sleep or fall unconscious. I believe he was talking about using the Forced March rules as a penalty for staying awake for more than 24 hours.
The synthesist is a summoner archetype. Unless an archetype specifically says something is changed, it works the same as the normal class. Synthesist says nothing about eidolons staying when the summoner is asleep or unconscious, so the eidolon disappears just as it would for a normal summoner.
|
I don't think it is banished if I sleep or fall unconscious. there is nothing that indicates this in the Synthesist article. it *specifically* says: "When these hit points [referring to the Eidolon's hit points] reach 0, the eidolon is sent back to its home plane." it also *specifically* says that "Spells such as banishment or dismissal work normally on the eidolon, but the synthesist is unaffected."
I interpret this as the Eidolon not being banished under other circumstances. the rules surrounding Eidolons for Synthesists are specific and special enough to warrant this interpretation, IMO. unless the rules specifically says that the Synthesist's Eidolon is banished upon sleep, I will assume it isn't. I mean, we are fused into one creature.
It also says:
While fused, the synthesist counts as both his original type and as an outsider for any effect related to type, whichever is worse for the synthesist. Spells such as banishment or dismissal work normally on the eidolon, but the synthesist is unaffected. Neither the synthesist nor his eidolon can be targeted separately, as they are fused into one creature. The synthesist and eidolon cannot take separate actions. While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist can use all of his own abilities and gear. In all other cases, this ability functions as the summoner's normal eidolon ability (for example, the synthesist cannot use his summon monster ability while the eidolon is present). This ability replaces the class's eidolon ability, bond senses, and life bond.
So, other then stated, it follows all Eidolon rules. Since nothing in the synthesist rules states that you can sleep with it out, or that it stays if you fall unconcious, then you follow the normal rules for eidolon, which state:
The eidolon remains until dismissed by the summoner (a standard action). If the eidolon is sent back to its home plane due to death, it cannot be summoned again until the following day. The eidolon cannot be sent back to its home plane by means of dispel magic, but spells such as dismissal and banishment work normally. If the summoner is unconscious, asleep, or killed, his eidolon is immediately banished.
Note that the normal Eidolon states that dismissal and banishment work on it also.
Well the issue is the 24 hours clause. Good luck on those forced march checks because you'll only get the bonus after making 16 of them.does this mean a Synthethist can take Power Attack with 7 STR, if the Eidolon has > 12, considering they are considered as one being, fused together?
furthermore, can anyone link to actual rules for this in the SRD or the books?
Not only that, but you'd have to do it all over again to reactivate the Power Attack feat. Because it doesn't re-become a permanent bonus (and thus re-qualify you) until you've had it for 24 hours again.
That being said, as a GM, I think it'd be a perfectly reasonable house rule to allow you to take it based on the eidolon's scores, the same way wizards can take the Fly skill based on having spells to enable them to fly.
| 4 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 11 people marked this as a favorite. |
Not only that, but you'd have to do it all over again to reactivate the Power Attack feat.
The "24 hour activation" doesn't have anything to do with qualifying for feats. If you have a Str 13, you can take Power Attack. It doesn't matter if you have it naturally, or a +2 from a belt, or even a +4 from a barbarian rage or bull's strength spell--the instant you have the required ability score, you can learn the feat, and you can use the feat as long as you're meeting all the prerequisites (which means you could have a character who can only PA when he's under the effect of a rage or bull's strength spell).
So someone with 5 ranks in Perception could take the Improved Back To Back teamwork feat if they ever got it from, say, Tactician. Interesting.
So someone with 5 ranks in Perception could take the Improved Back To Back teamwork feat if they ever got it from, say, Tactician. Interesting.
They still have to meet all of the prerequisites, which includes the standard Back to Back feat.
Sorry, I meant if they got Back to Back from Tactician.
Not only that, but you'd have to do it all over again to reactivate the Power Attack feat.The "24 hour activation" doesn't have anything to do with qualifying for feats. If you have a Str 13, you can take Power Attack. It doesn't matter if you have it naturally, or a +2 from a belt, or even a +4 from a barbarian rage or bull's strength spell--the instant you have the required ability score, you can learn the feat, and you can use the feat as long as you're meeting all the prerequisites (which means you could have a character who can only PA when he's under the effect of a rage or bull's strength spell).
I really like this ruling, and think it was long overdue. Can we get errata to either section that Grick quoted above to make this clear?
Also, would this let a monk take feats based his flurry BAB, since he actually has that BAB while flurrying? Obviously, they'd only work on his flurries until his regular BAB got high enough.
So someone with 5 ranks in Perception could take the Improved Back To Back teamwork feat if they ever got it from, say, Tactician. Interesting.
Yep, but they'd only benefit from having it when they had all the prereqs, which means having the Tactician give out Back To Back.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I really like this ruling, and think it was long overdue. Can we get errata to either section that Grick quoted above to make this clear?
I don't think it needs errata, as the Feats chapter doesn't say anything about restricting how you meet the Prerequisites for the feat.
Also, would this let a monk take feats based his flurry BAB, since he actually has that BAB while flurrying? Obviously, they'd only work on his flurries until his regular BAB got high enough.
Yes and correct.
I really like this ruling, and think it was long overdue. Can we get errata to either section that Grick quoted above to make this clear?I don't think it needs errata, as the Feats chapter doesn't say anything about restricting how you meet the Prerequisites for the feat.
Also, would this let a monk take feats based his flurry BAB, since he actually has that BAB while flurrying? Obviously, they'd only work on his flurries until his regular BAB got high enough.Yes and correct.
Actually Monks specifically can not do that:
For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus from his monk class levels is equal to his monk level. For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the monk uses his normal base attack bonus.
In fact this runs counter to what we've been told before when the question was about characters with a fly speed from say a spell or special ability (like the alchemist's wings ability) and taking feats like hover and fly by attack. At the time it was posted that a temporary ability did not qualify one for taking feats that were based on having that ability -- only permanent abilities did.
Of course I like this ruling better, but having the mix up clarified would be a huge benefit because at this point I've heard two different things from Paizo staff on this site.
| 7 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Staff response: no reply required. 13 people marked this as a favorite. |
Bah, this game is too complex.
Ideally, you could take any feat you want, but couldn't use it unless you meet its Prerequisites. I think it's one of those unnecessary restrictions we inherited from 3.5; we got rid of a lot of them, but there are still some buried here and there.
In other words: If you're willing to pay for the cost of a feat, even if the Prerequisites mean you can only use it sometimes, you should be able to learn the feat, because you're paying the cost to learn the feat.
If I'm willing to spend $100,000 to go through NASA's astronaut training, even though I'll never be an astronaut, let me spend that money--and who knows, maybe I'll be the one passenger on the spaceship who can land the thing when the pilot has a heart attack. :p If a fighter who normally wears half-plate and carries a tower shield wants to put ranks in Acrobatics, nobody says, "you'll never be able to make an Acrobatics check because of your armor check penalty, therefore you aren't allowed to put ranks in Acrobatics, dummy."
Removing this sort of restriction also allows players to plan ahead. Frex, if you have Str 12, you could take Power Attack at level 3 because at level 4 you're going to put your +1 into Str. Likewise, a monk who's close to the BAB breakpoint could take PA because he's going to take some fighter levels. If a sorcerer wants to put ranks in Fly at level 1, even though she won't be able to learn fly until level 6, that's fine--and no more world-absurd than her suddenly putting a bunch of ranks into Fly at level 6 as soon as she gains the spell.
In other other words, it's okay to let players make character choices that don't have a direct, immediate mechanical benefit. In the real world, it's common to teach people things that they won't use for months or years, or let them learn things that they'll never have a practical use for.
I would love to be able to buy feats early. It would fix one of my main issues with feats that require BAB +1 when there are a ton of martial classes who could use it at first level.
AND THERE WAS MUCH REJOICING!
|
|
I've thought more than once about allowing this. However, if you suffer a reduction in a stat, in my mind, you'd lose access to the feat's benefit, too.
I've always felt that was the way it worked. Just like if you temporarily lost the prereqs for a Prestige Class you would suddenly not be able to access any of those abilities.
Queue the Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde alchemist NPC with power attack and cleave.
I've thought more than once about allowing this. However, if you suffer a reduction in a stat, in my mind, you'd lose access to the feat's benefit, too.I've always felt that was the way it worked. Just like if you temporarily lost the prereqs for a Prestige Class you would suddenly not be able to access any of those abilities.
Not the case actually -- you simply can't level in that class until you meet the prerequisites again.
Bah, this game is too complex.
Ideally, you could take any feat you want, but couldn't use it unless you meet its Prerequisites. I think it's one of those unnecessary restrictions we inherited from 3.5; we got rid of a lot of them, but there are still some buried here and there.
In other words: If you're willing to pay for the cost of a feat, even if the Prerequisites mean you can only use it sometimes, you should be able to learn the feat, because you're paying the cost to learn the feat.
If I'm willing to spend $100,000 to go through NASA's astronaut training, even though I'll never be an astronaut, let me spend that money--and who knows, maybe I'll be the one passenger on the spaceship who can land the thing when the pilot has a heart attack. :p If a fighter who normally wears half-plate and carries a tower shield wants to put ranks in Acrobatics, nobody says, "you'll never be able to make an Acrobatics check because of your armor check penalty, therefore you aren't allowed to put ranks in Acrobatics, dummy."
Removing this sort of restriction also allows players to plan ahead. Frex, if you have Str 12, you could take Power Attack at level 3 because at level 4 you're going to put your +1 into Str. Likewise, a monk who's close to the BAB breakpoint could take PA because he's going to take some fighter levels. If a sorcerer wants to put ranks in Fly at level 1, even though she won't be able to learn fly until level 6, that's fine--and no more world-absurd than her suddenly putting a bunch of ranks into Fly at level 6 as soon as she gains the spell.
In other other words, it's okay to let players make character choices that don't have a direct, immediate mechanical benefit. In the real world, it's common to teach people things that they won't use for months or years, or let them learn things that they'll never have a practical use for.
I vehemently disagree. What this does is that it removes the gating of feats. A good example would be the dimensional dervish feat tree. Under your interpretation, a monk could simply take the dimensional feats early. Thus once they reach level 12, the monk is suddenly able to dervish with his abundant step. Sure you got a dead feat or two, but getting the ability to do something 5 levels faster can very easily cause balance issues. Consider the feats split major hex and using additional hex to get an additional major hex. You have to chose between the two normally, but now you can do both. This also affects prestige classes pre-reqs.
And in fact would have quite a few dead feats not helping him out for quite a few levels.
Damnit TOZ, stop editing your posts to make me look redundant.
Shakefist
Now if only this ruling would end up in HeroLab.
Er, it's actually been there from the beginning. Characters *can* select any feat, even if they lack the necessary prerequisites. Hero Lab throws up a validation warning that you are welcome to ignore. That's exactly why we use validation instead of imposing the rules. We simply raise the flag - it's up to the user to make the determination whether something is truly valid or not.
If you want to suppress the validation warning, that's another matter. The majority of Hero Lab users rely on validations to steer them clear of doing something wrong. In this case, given the above ruling, it's not technically "wrong", but it's *generally* ill-advised. So the validation warning is something that most users will want to continue seeing.
Lastly, if you want to have Hero Lab not flag the prerequisite and instead impose a precondition, you're fundamentally changing the behavior of the feat. A prerequisite is a test that users can deem is non-applicable in their particular game. GMs do that all the time, especially with NPCs. So if a character has a feat added, it needs to be always applied as if the prerequisite doesn't exist.
If you instead want the behavior to be as a precondition, where the feat can be added and is automatically disabled whenever its requirements aren't satisfied, this changes everything. The prerequisite needs to be removed and converted to a test that governs whether the ability is actually conferred. That entails a substantial change to the implementation of the feat, since it's now working in a very different manner. You can easily do this in your own games by changing all the pertinent feats, but you've essentially replaced the original feat with a different feat.
This is not something that can simply be toggled within Hero Lab, as you're changing the basic way feats are interpreted. And based on my interpretation of what Sean says above, the alternate interpretation is an "optional" interpretation - not official canon where prerequisites are officially changed across the board - so we can't change everything for this one optional interpretation. If this becomes an official change to how all feats work, then we can change things in Hero Lab, but I'm guessing there would be an outcry from some percentage of players in response to such a change, so such a change may be a bit more drastic than Paizo wants to formally institute across the board.
Sean, is this intended as a fundamental change to how all feats are intended to work? Is the basic definition of a "prerequisite" officially changing? Or am I correct in viewing this as an optional interpretation?
|
|
Damnit TOZ, stop editing your posts to make me look redundant.
Shakefist
Sorry!
Anyway, the only difference this makes is when a character gets a prerequisite on a level that doesn't grant a feat. (12th level Monk gets abundant step but doesn't get a feat. Of course, then he gets a feat at 13th. So this change moves the ability up one level. Unless the character took a level of another class, so that his 12th Monk level ends up being his 13th character level, granting him a feat.)
I'm not following you erik. The monk won't be able to dervish any sooner than usual. And for those levels he can't use the feat, he's missing the feat slots he's spent and not getting any benefit from any of the other feats he could have taken.
Using standard rules, the monk cannot dervish until level 17. He gets abundant step at 12, dimensional agility at 13, dimensional assault at 15, and dimensional dervish at 17. Using SKR's rules he can pick up ability at 7, assault at 9 and dervish at 11. At level 12, he meets the prerequisites for all three feats and thus can dervish 5 levels sooner. A more realistic build does agility at 9, assault at 11, and dervish at 13 to cut down on the dead feats while still getting dervish a whopping 4 levels early. A number of monk builds don't have much crucial going on around that time either IIRC. But my point about split major hex stands. Take split major hex at 17, you have one feat that's dead for one level and then use additional hex for another major hex. Normally that's impossible Pre-epic.
Are there any shenanigans that occur at levels of play that people actually see on a regular basis?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I vehemently disagree. What this does is that it removes the gating of feats. A good example would be the dimensional dervish feat tree. Under your interpretation, a monk could simply take the dimensional feats early. Thus once they reach level 12, the monk is suddenly able to dervish with his abundant step.
So?
Sure you got a dead feat or two, but getting the ability to do something 5 levels faster can very easily cause balance issues.
In general, feats are not balanced according to when you should get them, but according to how powerful they are. Feats that you shouldn't be able to take until later levels should have a "level X" prereq, rather than "you shouldn't be able to take this until level X, so we'll put a couple of crappy feats in as prereqs to delay when you can actually take this feat until level X."
Consider the feats split major hex and using additional hex to get an additional major hex. You have to chose between the two normally, but now you can do both.
How so? Extra Hex says "You must meet all of the prerequisites for this hex." So while you could take the feat at level 1, you can't use it to get a major hex because you don't learn major hexes until witch level 10.
This also affects prestige classes pre-reqs.
Can you identify a prestige class in the Core Rulebook where allowing someone to select a feat earlier than they could use it would allow you to enter the prestige class before character level 6?
|
I'm not following you erik. The monk won't be able to dervish any sooner than usual. And for those levels he can't use the feat, he's missing the feat slots he's spent and not getting any benefit from any of the other feats he could have taken.Using standard rules, the monk cannot dervish until level 17. He gets abundant step at 12, dimensional agility at 13, dimensional assault at 15, and dimensional dervish at 17. Using SKR's rules he can pick up ability at 7, assault at 9 and dervish at 11. At level 12, he meets the prerequisites for all three feats and thus can dervish 5 levels sooner. A more realistic build does agility at 9, assault at 11, and dervish at 13 to cut down on the dead feats while still getting dervish a whopping 4 levels early. A number of monk builds don't have much crucial going on around that time either IIRC. But my point about split major hex stands. Take split major hex at 17, you have one feat that's dead for one level and then use additional hex for another major hex. Normally that's impossible Pre-epic.
Using standard rules, it is still possible to get the full feat chain by 14th level.
1-12 Monk, get Abundant Step13-14 Fighter, get 3 feats - Huzzah!
Hmm, a human barbarian could have three rage powers by level 2. Same for any menu choice option, really.
I suspect Extra MCOs will be where this breaks down.
hm... I was reading that 'temporary' abilities could allow you access to the feat but heck I'm not sure this other reading isn't just as fine.
Oh hey, staff-like wand. Suddenly accessible earlier.
Wow. This is a significant change. While it is not bad, I'm not sure I agree with it.
From the point of verisimilitude, it makes little sense that you would be able to, say, learn to hover and fly-by attack before you can actually fly. Are you running about the campsite with your arms outstreched, making "woosh" noises as you run past your confused comrades? I would actually say it makes MORE sense for a wizard to put a pile of ranks into Fly (the skill) when they get Fly (the spell). I mean, come on. If you could suddenly fly, wouldn't you spend all your time and energy on it too?
From a balance perspective, it encourages "delayed gratification" builds. You spend (for example) all your feats getting to Dimensional Dervish, meaning from level 1-12 your character is going to be significantly weaker. Then, when you finally get Abundant Step, you spike up and become very powerful. While this can already happen, it moves it from "his abilities don't add up to something good" to "he has skipped having any abilities so he can be better at level X." This leads to encounter imbalance, weird progression, and the like.
To give a counterexample to the astronaut, I see it as trying to learn calculus before you know arithmetic, or Advanced Arabic before you know the letters. You can sit in the class, but your ability to absorb and understand the information is limited due to your lack foundation. Likewise, you simply can't really work towards understanding the intricacies of Weapon Focus until you are actually proficient in the weapon, and have a BaB of +1.