So, I've played D&D 4e, but I'm trying to switch to Pathfinder; however, I have question regarding the spell casting mechanic. If I understand correctly, spell casters don't roll a die when they cast a spell that they have either prepared or that is within their ability to cast unless they are distracted. However, the target being cast upon will often roll a save that has a DC of 10+CL+spell mod.
Therefore, does this mean that there are some spells that will just be considered automatic successes if the caster is not distracted?
Have I understood the magic system correctly?
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Actually, you don't need to roll a die unless you need to make a concentration check, which being distracted would force; You might have to roll an attack roll, though.
The save DC is 10+spell level+ main casting stat modifier, not caster level.
Yes, most spells are automatic successes in that you succeed in casting them. If they make their save or you miss with your attack roll though, then not so much
Welcome to Pathfinder and the Paizo boards btw!
Actually, you don't need to roll a die unless you need to make a concentration check, which being distracted would force; You might have to roll an attack roll, though.
The save DC is 10+spell level+ main casting stat modifier, not caster level.
Yes, most spells are automatic successes in that you succeed in casting them. If they make their save or you miss with your attack roll though, then not so much
Welcome to Pathfinder and the Paizo boards btw!
What would the attack roll be against? For instance, if I am casting Daze or Sleep, would I roll an attack roll?
4E requires a roll against Fort/Reflex/Will Defenses, instead of saving throws.
Yes, spells in 4e work just like combat powers, so this system is somewhat different for me. And thank you for the welcome! =)
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What would the attack roll be against? For instance, if I am casting Daze or Sleep, would I roll an attack roll?
The target of the spell rolls a saving throw. The caster does not roll an attack roll. Effectively, the target uses his saving throw bonus +1d20 as his Fort/Refl/Will Defense. The caster has his 'spell attack bonus' added to 10. Think of 4E's method, but with the roles reversed.
Have I understood the magic system correctly?Perhaps.
Some spells require a target to save against their effects (the caster supplies the DC based on things you included, the target makes the check) to either avoid them or mitigate them.
Some spells require an attack roll of some kind. These are usually against 'touch AC' rather than the full AC that includes things like armor, shield and natural armor (thick hides, exoskeletons).
Some spells require both.
And some spells require neither.
Does this make sense so far?
Examples:
Charm person requires the target to make a WILL save to avoid being charmed.Fireball requires that the targets in the area make a REF save with success dealing half damage while failure gives full damage.
Shocking grasp requires the caster make a melee touch attack to deal damage. On a successful touch attack the target takes the damage without save.
Disintegrate requires that the caster make a ranged touch attack against the target. If its a hit (does nothing on a miss) then the target gets a FORT save. If successful on the save they take 5d6 damage otherwise on a failure they take 2d6 per caster level (upto 40d6 maximum for a 20th level caster).
Maze simply effects the target without save.
Power word spells also effects the target without saves (though other criteria need to be met for how effective they are).
Hope this helps,
James
OK James, I think I am understand; thank you for expounding. I pretty much understood the system, but I forgot about the 'touch' line of spells that use an attack roll.
I'm playing my first PF game this coming Thursday, so I was doing some simulated encounters with the character I created to try and make sure I understand the mechanic.
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Let me see if I can give you a crash course in Pathfinder/3.5 spellcasting.
When you cast a spell at an enemy, they are often entitled to a Fortitude, Reflex, or Will saving throw (1d20 + class bonus + ability modifier). The spell entry will specify which save(s), if any, the opponent will roll - and what the results will indicate. Generally speaking, the spellcaster doesn't need to roll anything.
The difficulty class (DC) of the enemy's saving throw is the number that his save needs to equal or exceed in order to resist or mitigate the spell's effects. The DC is equal to 10 + spell level + Int, Wis, or Cha modifier (depending on the spellcaster's class).
Some spells do require the caster to make a roll of some kind, but these spells will always describe the type and effect of the roll in the spell description. For example, ray of frost requires the caster to make a ranged touch attack roll against the target's touch AC.
Additionally, if casting the spell would provoke an attack of opportunity, you can make a concentration check (1d20 + caster level + Int, Wis, or Cha modifier, depending on your class) in order to cast the spell without provoking. If this check fails, you lose the spell - and your action.
There are other situations in which you might need to make a concentration check. Take a look at the Magic chapter of the Core Rulebook for some examples.
to add another layer of complexity to this thread, i noticed that ranged weapon attacks and thrown weapon attacks suffer a -4 penalty if the target is engaged in melee (unless the attacker has the precise shot feat).
is there no such penalty for spells or spell-like abilities that require a ranged touch attack?
consider the following diagrams...
A=attacker
B=attacker's buddy
T=target
A---------->TB
attacker is using a ranged weapon (let's say a short bow) and suffers a -4 because the target is engaged in melee with the attacker's buddy, even though the attacker has a clear, unobstructed shot at the target's back.
A---------->BT
attacker is a sorcerer with the aberrant bloodline and casts acidic ray at the target with no penalty, even though is target is obstructed by his buddy that is trying to dispense justice to the target with his club.
Now, I think I read the rules thoroughly enough that my descriptions of the two scenarios above are accurate, but I am still new and could have easily missed something (maybe cover rules affect the second scenario).
My question depends on if my understanding of the rules are accurate.
If I explained the scenarios correctly, why such a harsh penalty for physical ranged weapons compared to no penalty for spells? How is this explained? Is the spell assumed to be like a heat-seeking missile that can seek out its target and is perhaps thrown in an arc in order to circumvent the ally and hit the enemy?
If I explained it incorrectly, where is my mistake in the interpretation of the rules? I found stuff about casting spells when objects such as rocks or walls are providing cover, but nothing about when people are in the way. What page can I find the rules for this?
Thanks in advance!
I would also suggest reading Chapter 9: Magic, it's only 15 pages.
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to add another layer of complexity to this thread, i noticed that ranged weapon attacks and thrown weapon attacks suffer a -4 penalty if the target is engaged in melee (unless the attacker has the precise shot feat).
is there no such penalty for spells or spell-like abilities that require a ranged touch attack?
Under 'Aiming a Spell'.
Ray: Some effects are rays. You aim a ray as if using a ranged weapon, though typically you make a ranged touch attack rather than a normal ranged attack.
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to add another layer of complexity to this thread, i noticed that ranged weapon attacks and thrown weapon attacks suffer a -4 penalty if the target is engaged in melee (unless the attacker has the precise shot feat).
is there no such penalty for spells or spell-like abilities that require a ranged touch attack?
No.
I mean yes.
Er, I mean, No, there is not no such penalty. Or, I mean Yes, there is such a penalty.
Sheeesh, this English language can get convoluted. Why can't we all just speak Common?
Serious answer: The penalty for firing ranged combat into melee is the same with spells that require a ranged touch attack; all such spells suffer the same -4 penalty to hit and taking Precise Shot allows you to ignore this penalty.
consider the following diagrams...
A=attacker
B=attacker's buddy
T=targetA---------->TB
attacker is using a ranged weapon (let's say a short bow) and suffers a -4 because the target is engaged in melee with the attacker's buddy, even though the attacker has a clear, unobstructed shot at the target's back.
The attacker A still suffers the penalty because there is a really good chance that the target T might step aside at just the wrong instant, and the arrow might hit buddy B right in the face. So the attacker will aim extra carefully, maybe off to the side a little, risking a greater chance to miss in exchange for a certainty that a miss won't hit his buddy.
A---------->BT
attacker is a sorcerer with the aberrant bloodline and casts acidic ray at the target with no penalty, even though is target is obstructed by his buddy that is trying to dispense justice to the target with his club.
Nope, ranged touch attacks have the same penalty firing into melee as other ranged attacks.
Furthmore, since your buddy B is in the way, he provides "soft cover" for the enemy, so you get the -4 penalty for firing into melee (this is applied to your sorcerer's d20 attack roll) and the target T gets +4 to his AC because of the soft cover.
The net effect is that your -4 to the attack roll and the target's +4 AC makes this shot effecively a -8 compared to what it would have been if your buddy had stayed home.
Now, I think I read the rules thoroughly enough that my descriptions of the two scenarios above are accurate, but I am still new and could have easily missed something (maybe cover rules affect the second scenario).
My question depends on if my understanding of the rules are accurate.
If I explained the scenarios correctly, why such a harsh penalty for physical ranged weapons compared to no penalty for spells? How is this explained? Is the spell assumed to be like a heat-seeking missile that can seek out its target and is perhaps thrown in an arc in order to circumvent the ally and hit the enemy?
If I explained it incorrectly, where is my mistake in the interpretation of the rules? I found stuff about casting spells when objects such as rocks or walls are providing cover, but nothing about when people are in the way. What page can I find the rules for this?
Your mistake is your initial premise. In the Spells chapter, under "Aiming a Spell" it lists different types of spells. Under "Rays" the first sentence says "You aim a ray as if using a ranged weapon".
Now, it doesn't explicitly say you take the -4 penalty for firing into melee, but it also doesn't explicitly say you don't have that penalty. But since it does say it works like using ranged weapons, then that means the default assumption is that any penalty that applies to ranged weapons also applies to rays, unless explictly stated otherwise.
Ergo, rays are aimed like ranged weapons and firing into melee incurs the -4 penalty.
A lot of spellcasters with the intention of using ray spells (or other spells that aren't rays but require a ranged attack roll - they do exist. Some even require a regular ranged attack roll, against regular AC, rather than a ranged touch against the touch AC) get Point-Blank Shot and then Precise Shot, meaning they don't incur the -4 to ranged attacks when the target is in melee.
And I guess there are some martially-inclined spellcasters (like eldritch knights, or maybe some clerics) who qualify for Improved Precise Shot (though it's everything but easy for spellcasters) to ignore all cover or concealment unless it's total cover/concealment.
Then there's Combat Casting to boost your concentration check made to cast defensively, so it's easier to cast spells even when someone's right next to you (but beware: If you need to make a ranged touch, you'll still get an Attack of Opportunity!)
And things like just getting smarter/wiser/cuter or taking Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus for spells of a school you use often will help you raise your spells' DCs.
Finally, there's Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration (and being an elf) that helps you against enemies with Spell Resistance (because that's an extra roll you need to make as soon as your spell tries to affect the target - if the target has SR and you fail that roll, they can completely ignore the spell)
thanks DM Blake for your in-depth description. and thanks to everyone else that offered help as well.
I am new as can be at Pathfinder/D20, especially MAGIC.
Would someone please explain all the steps it takes if I were to cast DETECT MAGIC in a room, I wouldn't have any distractions, that would tell me if any MAGIC is present, especially dice rolls, what for and when.