Weapon and Armor skill point training

[Themetricsystem]

Care to elaborate?
...
Empty thread much?

[Diodric]

I had an idea earlier this week to allow characters to take armor and weapon proficiency feats with skill points as well as feats. Fighters could buy them with feats if they wanted and rogues with skill points if they so chose.
I'm not sure how to word this specific rule, but it would work something like this:

For every proficiency level (Simple, Martial, Light, Heavy ect.) past what's listed in your class description, it costs you 2 skill points to gain proficiency in that equipment.

Examples:

Sorcerer - The sorcerers class description states that they are proficient in all Simple weapons. If a sorcerer wanted to pick up proficiency in a Longsword (Martial) it would cost him 2 skill points (from Simple to Martial). Or, if the same sorcerer wanted to use a Spiked Chain (Exotic) it would cost him 4 skill points (from Simple to Exotic).

Fighter - Fighters have an easier time with weapons and armor due to already knowing most of them. If a fighter wanted to learn how to use a Bastard Sword one-handed it would only cost him 2 points to go from base Martial proficiency to an Exotic proficiency. It would also only cost him 2 points to gain proficiency in the Tower Shield since he already has base proficiency in shields.

I hope I'm making since here.

Lets try a Rogue. A rogue is proficient in a Simple weapons plus a smattering of martials, but since Simple is the only one specified then it would cost him 2 points for Martial proficiency in a single weapon and 4 for an Exotic weapon as normal. If the rogue wanted, for whatever reason, to gain Medium Armor, then that would be 2 points as well, plus an additional 2 points to gain Heavy Armor if he wanted to continue on.

For classes such as Monks and Druids that do not gain any "class" of weapons, then Simple weapons cost only a single point per proficiency, and Martial for 2, and Exotic for 4 as normal.

So a simple chart would be as follows:

Weapons
None -> Simple (1 point)
Simple -> Martial (2 points)
Martial -> Exotic (2 points)

Armor
None -> Light (2 points)
Light -> Medium (2 points)
Medium -> Heavy (2 points)

Shields
None -> Shields (2 points)
Shields - > Tower Shield (2 points)

An exception, and I'm a little undecided as to this one, is Firearms. They are present in the campaign world and characters may decide to use them. Whether they are Martial or Exotic depends on the DM, but as per the 3.5 DMG you gained proficiency with firearms with a single feat. Should one be able to gain proficiency with all firearms for 2 or 4 skill points?

I put this together under the influence that for some classes feats are still a precious commodity. Also to me it takes time to learn how to use these weapons and armors, and that if you're spending a few hours a day practicing with a new weapon, maybe you're not devoting the same amount of time to reading your holy book to improve your Know (religion) skill, or whatever.

I put this at 2 skill points since, at least in my games, it takes 2 skill points to learn a language. Fluent in a language/learning how not to stab yourself, seems pretty similar in terms of time and dedication.
And at 4 skill points for most weapons is almost just as much as the cost of a feat (ie. Open Minded gave 5 skill points, or any +2/+2 Skill feat).

That was my basic idea. Let me know what you think. Thanks all!

[Talynonyx]

Diodric wrote:

Fighter - Fighters have an easier time with weapons and armor due to already knowing most of them. If a fighter wanted to learn how to use a Bastard Sword one-handed it would only cost him 2 points to go from base Martial proficiency to an Exotic proficiency. It would also only cost him 2 points to gain proficiency in the Tower Shield since he already has base proficiency in shields.

Fighters are already proficient in Tower Shields.

On the other hand... it looks like a interesting idea.

[Diodric]

Talynonyx wrote:

Fighters are already proficient in Tower Shields.

On the other hand... it looks like a interesting idea.

Huh, well what do you know? lol Thanks for taking a look.

[Diodric]

Just bumping to get some feedback. Thanks

[rainzax]

feedback.

i think skill points for proficiency is potentially a good idea.

but i'd like to see classes with a more martial bent gain the easiest/best access.

and so, i think this method needs to factor in what proficiencies the user already has, and grant access based on this scaling.

consider the paradigm:

A) proficiency with martial weapons
B) proficiency with simple weapons
C) proficiency with a few weapons

full BAB classes are all 'A' proficiency code
3/4 BAB classes are all 'B' (plus the sorcerer)
1/2 BAB classes are all 'C'

(one could conceive a 5-tier paradigm similarly...)

i would either adjust the quantity (number of points required to acquire proficiency) or the quality (type of proficiency acquired simple/martial/exotic) according to the proficiency code

finally, i think the Linguistics skill is a good model (precedent) on how this could skill could function.

(naturally, this all to be converted back from game-math-ese into written english (or whatever) once decided...

[Umbranus]

Lets compare some weapon proficiency costs:

Bastardsword onehanded usage
- Fighter pays 2 skill points, thats all his skill points by class for that level.
- Rogue pays 4 skill points, thats half his sp by class for that level.
- Ranger pays 2 skill points, thats one third his sp by class for that level.

Longsword usage
- Cleric pays 2 points, that's all of his sp by class for that level.
- Oracle pays 2 points, that's half of his sp by class for that level.

I don't like this system at all because it makes it most expencive to learn a new weapon for the one class that should be best able to use many different weapons, the fighter.
Apart from the fighter this houserule is still unbalanced because it further penalizes classes with few sp over those with many sp.

If you want a rule that is better balanced make the costs into parts of sp gained per class/level.

For example:
Gaining proficiency in a weapon one step away from class proficiency costs half class sp/level, gaining proficiency in a weapon two steps away from class proficiency costs full class sp/level.

One problem with this approach would be the question what to do with PCs who dumped int and do not gain enough sp/level. But there you could well just say: "that's the price for int dumping"

[rainzax]

what about just a blanket rule:

Weapon Proficiency:

A character gains her initial proficiencies according to her class. She can gain additional proficiencies by taking a level in another class or by the following method.

Any time a character selects a Combat Feat, she may also select a simple weapon to hereafter gain proficiency with. If she is already proficient with all simple weapons, she may instead select a martial weapon. If she is already proficient with all martial weapons, she may instead select an exotic weapon.

These additional proficiencies may be selected immediately upon gaining a level, or they may be saved for later. In the latter case, the character must spend a week training with a new weapon in order to gain it's proficiency.

this avoids skill point disparity and honors starting proficiencies. the fighter pulls first, followed by monk(!), then ranger, followed by other classes who gains bonus combat feats, followed by classes that don't.

[JTibbs]

I had a similar thought once, but it was more like a wizard/sorcerer/other class could burn a single skill point per weapon/armor, not blanket levels like 'martial weapons' or 'light armor'. To get comprehensive proficiency or a level of weapons/armor you would either burn a LOT of skill points, or burn a feat.

So a wizard wanted to be at least competent in this nifty +1 shocking shortsword he picked up as a close range backup weapon.

In order to gain proficiency he would (in character) do a bit of side practice in on it with a fighter or someone with a classic weapons proficiency. They burn a single skill point and ONLY gain proficiency with shortswords. Longswords would take another point, etc... same with armor.

Maybe exotics take 2 skill points due to issues with finding trainers, so you have to devote more time figuring it out.

I think its pretty balanced, since it represents a fair amount of effort in gaining basic proficiency. Its nothing on the level of a fighter spending a decade learning how to use 2 dozen weapons and use them WELL (as reflected with the higher attack bonuses they get with their class... years of training).

[Diodric]

rainzax wrote:

but i'd like to see classes with a more martial bent gain the easiest/best access.

I already implemented this, to a degree. Most martial classes already gain martial weapon proficiency. Which means that for the maybe one or two exotic weapon they may ever want to take will only cost them a few skill points. However the rogue that wants to take the elven curve blade will cost him 4 skill points, half of his skill points, which is really (what I feel) is an important class "feature."

Umbranus wrote:

I don't like this system at all because it makes it most expencive to learn a new weapon for the one class that should be best able to use many different weapons, the fighter.

I feel it's exactly the opposite. If a fighter wants to learn a new weapon he always has the option to burn his most abundant resource, his bonus feats. If you have a fighter with a 10 Int and 2 skill points, his skills weren't going to be phenomenal anyways. Whats 2 points over the course of a campaign?