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I just noticed that the wording for the Acrobatics skill (where speed bonuses for jumping is concerned) is worded differently from v3.5 D&D.
Here are the relevant quotes:
Your Jump check is modified by your speed. If your speed is 30 feet then no modifier based on speed applies to the check. If your speed is less than 30 feet, you take a -6 penalty for every 10 feet of speed less than 30 feet. If your speed is greater than 30 feet, you gain a +4 bonus for every 10 feet beyond 30 feet.
So a monk with 50 ft. movement speed would get a +8 bonus to jump checks (on top of everything else).
Creatures with a base land speed above 30 feet receive a +4 racial bonus on Acrobatics checks made to jump for every 10 feet of their speed above 30 feet. Creatures with a base land speed below 30 feet receive a –4 racial bonus on Acrobatics checks made to jump for every 10 feet of their speed below 30 feet.
Now, since it says, BASE land speed, does that then mean that, despite having 50 ft. of movement speed, my monk is no better at jumping than anyone else (excepting the High Jump class ability)?
Do boots of striding and springing no longer give you the +9 effective bonus to jump checks? Does the Fleet feat do nothing for jumping?
Or since, in most instances, it is an enhancement bonus, the jump checks gain the bonus since it is "enhancing" the BASE speed? Also, the Fleet feat specifically says it increases your BASE speed. Does that mean I get the +4 bonus to jump checks for every two times I take it?
How does all this interact with a barbarian's bonus to speed, which is untyped?
Though I welcome poster interpretation, I am mostly looking for an official ruling/personal opinion from a game developer.
I've looked everywhere, and as far as I can find, there's no distinction between "speed" and "base speed".
The only thing base speed is specifically indicating is that it's talking about your basic speed, not when running, etc.
But, as you said, you're looking for the official response.
I'm not sure about the base speed distinction (though I think it's obvious that Fleet would give you the Jump bonus whatever the case - it uses the 'increases base speed' language like how Dragon Disciple increases NatArmor, i.e. it's not a bonus or enhancement of any sort), but in relation to Monks they now have the +Class Level bonus to Jump (@5th level) which is probably better than how it worked in 3.5 just by itself.
Personally, I think 'base speed' is just referring to land speed as opposed to fly or swim or whatever. I.e. Fleet can't increase Fly speed.
Only problem is 'base land speed' is used in Combat:Movement section, which suggests a difference, though inconsistent wording certainly wouldn't be surprise either.
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Now he just burns a ki point and takes +20 to his jump check for the round. (5th lvl or higher)
The monk speed increase is an enhancement bonus now, and doesn't stack with boots of striding/springing since they're an enhancement bonus too.
Gonna have to tell our party monk about that. He's been using those boots for the last couple levels :p
Thanks everyone. It's good to know that others were thinking along similar lines as I.
Hopefully, we will get a response from a developer before long. *crosses fingers*
The monk speed increase is an enhancement bonus now, and doesn't stack with boots of striding/springing since they're an enhancement bonus too.
Gonna have to tell our party monk about that. He's been using those boots for the last couple levels :p
I'm pretty sure they were both enhancement bonuses in 3.5 too. :)
I agree with the general concensus here (I think?) that "base speed" likely refers to your default form of movement. So having a burrow speed of 20' doesn't reduce your jump checks for instance.
In addition to spending the Ki Point for the +20, don't forget the High Jump ability. Add your Monk levels to your check, and treat all jumps as if you had a running start.
So a 5th level, medium size Monk with a Dex of 16 and max ranks can spend a Ki Point and take 10 on a jump and get: 10 (roll) + 20 (ki point) + 3 (Dex) + 5 (ranks) + 3 (class skill) + 5 (level) + 4 (speed) = 50
So with average effort, your average Monk at 5th level can make a 50' long jump or a 12.5' high jump from a standstill. Count me impressed. :)
Ye's, I wa's al'so wondering about the ba'se 'speed language, in my ca'se regarding the Half-Dragons fly 'speed. Right now, a's Im ruling it, a Half-Dragon Human with fleet and Boot's of 'Striding and 'Springing ha's a fly 'speed of 90 ((30+5+10)X2). I dont think thi's is an out-there ruling but I have a feeling its not exactly the intent.
the half-dragon can fly at twice the creature’s base land speed
These boots increase the wearer’s base land speed by 10 feet.
your base speed increases by 5 feet
It 'seem's that template race's would benefit mo'st from this combo 'since their fly 'speed i's DERIVED. However, the de'scription of Fleet make's me feel as if I 'should rule it ought to boos't ALL ba'se 'speed's by 5 feet. Indeed, I would al'so allow an item 'similar to the boot's so that flying creatures could take advantage of it.
Now he just burns a ki point and takes +20 to his jump check for the round. (5th lvl or higher)
The monk speed increase is an enhancement bonus now, and doesn't stack with boots of striding/springing since they're an enhancement bonus too.
Gonna have to tell our party monk about that. He's been using those boots for the last couple levels :p
Grrr, board ate my post. Let me try again...
First off, I have to agree that I think 'base speed' is referring to your race's default form of movement. So for instance, you wouldn't receive a penalty to jumping if you had a burrow speed of 20', or something like that. It doesn't really make sense that you'd be able to run faster, but not be able to jump further.
Magic Dealer, sorry to say but the Monk's Fast Movement ability was an enhancement bonus in 3.5 too. That's not new to Pathfinder.
Also, don't forget the other two benefits of the High Jump ability gained at 5th level. You get to add your Monk level to all jumping Acrobatics checks, and you treat them all as if you had a running start.
So, let's assume a 5th level human monk, with a Dex of 16, max ranks in Acrobatics. If he takes 10 on an acrobatics check to jump, and spends a ki point, he gets: 10 (take-10) + 20 (ki point) + 5 (monk level) + 5 (ranks) + 3 (class skill) + 3 (dex) + 4 (speed) = 50
That works out to either a 50' long jump (which would consume two move actions since it's further than his movement rate of 40'), or a 12.5' high jump. From a standstill. Count me impressed.
Creative Director
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I'm 99% sure "base land speed" means the same as "land speed." But it applies to your land speed at the time you make the jump. You wouldn't get the bonus when you're standing still.
I agree that it's worded awkwardly, but in cases like this it's best to apply a dose of logic and common sense; if someone were moving faster than someone else when they jumped, logically they would go further than the slower person.
I'm 99% sure "base land speed" means the same as "land speed." But it applies to your land speed at the time you make the jump. You wouldn't get the bonus when you're standing still.
I agree that it's worded awkwardly, but in cases like this it's best to apply a dose of logic and common sense; if someone were moving faster than someone else when they jumped, logically they would go further than the slower person.
Does that mean that if I took the run action to move 5 times my speed I would suddenly get a substantial bonus to my jump check?
As a jumper, I can tell you that you don't all-out sprint when going for a jump...your stride is different, your pacing has to be perfect, and you have to have a whole different center of body motion at the moment of a jump that you can't do while in an all-out sprint.
Besides, Run takes a full-round action...you can't jump in the middle of it!
==Aelryinth
As a jumper, I can tell you that you don't all-out sprint when going for a jump...your stride is different, your pacing has to be perfect, and you have to have a whole different center of body motion at the moment of a jump that you can't do while in an all-out sprint.
Besides, Run takes a full-round action...you can't jump in the middle of it!
==Aelryinth
Isn't a jump part of movement, not an action in and of itself?
In a raid, can't look it up right at the moment.
As a jumper, I can tell you that you don't all-out sprint when going for a jump...your stride is different, your pacing has to be perfect, and you have to have a whole different center of body motion at the moment of a jump that you can't do while in an all-out sprint.
Besides, Run takes a full-round action...you can't jump in the middle of it!
==Aelryinth
But, all other things being equal (including skill), wouldn't the person with a better speed have an advantage? If you're highly skilled, you should be able to make a great jump at a sprint.
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Creative Director
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Does that mean that if I took the run action to move 5 times my speed I would suddenly get a substantial bonus to my jump check?I'm 99% sure "base land speed" means the same as "land speed." But it applies to your land speed at the time you make the jump. You wouldn't get the bonus when you're standing still.
I agree that it's worded awkwardly, but in cases like this it's best to apply a dose of logic and common sense; if someone were moving faster than someone else when they jumped, logically they would go further than the slower person.
The amount of distance you're covering doesn't matter. Just your speed. When you run, your base land speed remains the same; it doesn't increase.
Besides, Run takes a full-round action...you can't jump in the middle of it!
Yes you can. Running is part of movement.
I'm 99% sure "base land speed" means the same as "land speed." But it applies to your land speed at the time you make the jump. You wouldn't get the bonus when you're standing still.
OK, to clarify your statement, are you saying the Jump check bonus is based off whatever your base speed is (base land speed, or base swim speed if a swimmer was swimming up to jump out of water, etc), INCLUDING enhancement and other bonuses? In other words "base" in this context has no correlation to "natural" or "without bonuses" speed, but simply corresponds to how far you can move with one Move Action?
Also, I'm not sure about this "wouldn't get the bonus when you're standing still" because jumping without a running start is already severely penalized. If you really do lose any base speed bonus when Jumping from a stand-still, that really needs to be included in the Jump test itself. Below is the section of the Jump text describing the penalties for not having a running start:
The base DC to make a jump is equal to the distance to be crossed (if horizontal) or four times the height to be reached (if vertical). These DCs double if you do not have at least 10 feet of space to get a running start.
For a running jump, the result of your Acrobatics check indicates the distance traveled in the jump (and if the check fails, the distance at which you actually land and fall prone). Halve this result for a standing long jump to determine where you land.
Are these portions describing the exact same thing, or are they different (and you are doubly penalized, i.e. standing jumps are only 1/4 the distance)? I'm guessing they ARE superfluous, but how they are worded is very confusing, especially since once DIRECTLY halves the distance you jump and the other in-directly halves the distance you jump by doubling the DCs.
Ravingdork, I gotta say I had the exact same thought when I saw the Jump language during the playtest, and thought it meant the same thing. It was clarified (mostly through examples I think) that it has not changed. Like James said, your "base" speed, as in not multiplied by your actions (a double move or run). However the Run feat (to run at x5) does give you a +4 to jumping.
Magic Dealer, sorry to say but the Monk's Fast Movement ability was an enhancement bonus in 3.5 too. That's not new to Pathfinder.
Correct, though often forgotten because it was not an enhancement bonus in 3.0, until you had greater than a +30 to your speed.
OOOOOOOHHHHH!!!! They say BASE SPEED so that you can differentiate between your actual movement used that round and the amount of your maximum single move. Gotcha. So my interpretation seems 100% correct, yes?
Since the run feat gives a flat bonus, and not running before jumping gives a flat penalty (which the monk can ignore after a certain level), I'm of the opinion that it's not based on how much you move in the round.
If it were based on the movement you made, then a monk's lifting of the restriction would be self defeating. The point is that a monk can make a standing jump that's ridiculously long.
So, evidence suggests that your "base speed" in this case would be the speed you wrote on your character sheet. Simple as that.
It's how I've always seen it played since 3.5e (possibly 3.0e.. although I can't remember the specifics of the jump skill that far, and don't have the inclination to check).
I knew it wasn't based on how much you move in the round. The wording in James' post threw me off a little though, so I was just making sure I understood him correctly.
What I want to know is the jump check modifier for a 7th-level monk with 16 Dexterity, max ranks in Acrobatics, and the Fleet feat four times.
I knew it wasn't based on how much you move in the round. The wording in James' post threw me off a little though, so I was just making sure I understood him correctly.
What I want to know is the jump check modifier for a 7th-level monk with 16 Dexterity, max ranks in Acrobatics, and the Fleet feat four times.
That seems pretty easy. 3 (dex) + 10 (ranks) + 16 (+4 speed bonus x4) = 29
That seems pretty easy. 3 (dex) + 10 (ranks) + 16 (+4 speed bonus x4) = 29I knew it wasn't based on how much you move in the round. The wording in James' post threw me off a little though, so I was just making sure I understood him correctly.
What I want to know is the jump check modifier for a 7th-level monk with 16 Dexterity, max ranks in Acrobatics, and the Fleet feat four times.
You're missing a couple things.
10 (ranks)
3 (class skill)
3 (Dex)
7 (High Jump class feature)
16 (speed bonus)
=
39
You can also get another +20 to the check by spending a ki point.
How on earth is a 7th-level character getting 10 ranks???
Hah, good question. I was just copying TheDrone's numbers and not really applying any thought to what they represented. Clearly he added the class skill bonus to the ranks. So the actual number is 36, not 39, with the possible +20 bringing it up to 56.
Monks are actually more obscene at jumping than they were before, is the point.
There was a thread a while back where we discussed the speed of a character that went all out on speed.
Barbarian 1, Cleric of Travel 1 (for unnamed speed bonuses), and the rest Monk. The run feat and then all fleet feats.
I think we figured out that he could likely "run" on water at the speed we were getting. He'd at least be getting speeding tickets on the highway.
So, evidence suggests that your "base speed" in this case would be the speed you wrote on your character sheet. Simple as that.This!
Sweet! I'm writing "infinite" on mine! (I guess I'll also write "Sexy" in the Charisma box and "First" in Initiative.)
So monks not only get the "always a running start" feature, the class bonus to jump and the ki power option, they also get their extra speed added to jump checks?
That's madness! I'll have to correct my character sheet right away :D
There was a thread a while back where we discussed the speed of a character that went all out on speed.
Barbarian 1, Cleric of Travel 1 (for unnamed speed bonuses), and the rest Monk. The run feat and then all fleet feats.
I think we figured out that he could likely "run" on water at the speed we were getting. He'd at least be getting speeding tickets on the highway.
With the above method I came up with a base speed of 160' at 20th level. At a full run, that works out to 91 mph (or 146 kph). So yeah, not quite walk on water speed, but you might skip across if Mythbusters are to be believed. :)
Now, if we want that same character to be an amazing jumper then we drop two Fleet feats (losing 10' of base speed, or 5.7 mph) in exchange for Acrobatic and Skill Focus: Acrobatics. And we end up with...
+20 Ranks
+3 Class skill
+18 Monk levels
+11 Dex 32 (16, +5 from levels, +5 from Manual, +6 from belt)
+10 Improved Ring of Jumping
+48 Speed bonus (4*((150-30)/10))
+20 Ki point
+4 Run
+6 Skill Focus: Acrobatics
+4 Acrobatic feat
+10 Take-10
----
154 Total
So he could jump a 150' gap with a little room to spare, or leap 38.5' straight up, all from a standstill.
Actually, I'm a little disappointed by that result. I would have expected at least a 50' high jump. At level 5 he was making 10' high jumps. With 4x the levels I would have expected at least 4x the result. I suppose he could have a friendly caster with the Jump spell handy too, for another +30. That would get us to 184, or a high jump of 46'. Still, I was expecting to leap tall buildings in a single bound by this point. I suppose that's what flying is for, hmm? :)
Yeah we always use the term "base speed" to mean your race's default speed before any enhancements. Halflings for example have a base speed of 20, humans 30, etc. Otherwise there's no need for that rule except for temporary speed bonuses like haste.
Yeah I had a monk character in 3.5 that got to epic levels. I was almost useless in combat but man could I jump. My speed was 170 when Hasted, max ranks, Mental Leap psionic feat, Run, etc.
Had like a +114 or some such nonsense all told.
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Creative Director
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As fun as it can be to max out a jump, the balance kicks in when you realize that jumping isn't as good as flying, and it's actually easier to get flight than it is to get a super high jump check. A high level monk with a +100 to jump is still gonna fall when he reaches the end of his jump, whereas an equal level spellcaster will be flying or air walking or something. So that kind of jumping power is hardly out of balance.
As fun as it can be to max out a jump, the balance kicks in when you realize that jumping isn't as good as flying, and it's actually easier to get flight than it is to get a super high jump check. A high level monk with a +100 to jump is still gonna fall when he reaches the end of his jump, whereas an equal level spellcaster will be flying or air walking or something. So that kind of jumping power is hardly out of balance.
Right. Like I was saying, my monk character was insanely fun to play but yeah I'd rather just have winged boots in the end. Same with rogues and stealth, you could always just buy a ring of invisibility.
In some situations, like in a dungeon, I can recall there being a precipitous drop and the party trying to figure out whether they should climb down or try to feather fall or fly and then they're like "oh...Auer just jumped..."
With the above method I came up with a base speed of 160' at 20th level. At a full run, that works out to 91 mph (or 146 kph). So yeah, not quite walk on water speed, but you might skip across if Mythbusters are to be believed. :)
David Attenborough claims a human would only have to run 65 mph to emulate a basilisk lizard's ability to run on the surface of water (from BBC's recent Life series). I'm a bit skeptical, though, considering the difference in physiology and weight distribution, not to mention the difference in foot shape.
Zo
With the above method I came up with a base speed of 160' at 20th level. At a full run, that works out to 91 mph (or 146 kph). So yeah, not quite walk on water speed, but you might skip across if Mythbusters are to be believed. :)David Attenborough claims a human would only have to run 65 mph to emulate a basilisk lizard's ability to run on the surface of water (from BBC's recent Life series). I'm a bit skeptical, though, considering the difference in physiology and weight distribution, not to mention the difference in foot shape.
Zo
I'd be skeptical of that too. It was probably meant as a broad comparision. If the basilisk lizard had the same stride length as a human, it'd be moving at 65mph. Or something along those lines.
And just for comparison's sake (and so we realize just how blindingly fast Monks can be), the current world record for the 200m dash of 19.19s averages out to a little over 23mph. The speedy Monk above would clock in at 4.93s.
You know, I think at this rate an arguement could be made for dealing damage as a living battering ram. I mean sure, there's more straightforward ways of hurting something at 20th level, but there has to be some allowance for cool factor, right?
You know, I think at this rate an arguement could be made for dealing damage as a living battering ram. I mean sure, there's more straightforward ways of hurting something at 20th level, but there has to be some allowance for cool factor, right?
Well, that's true. But you also have take into account of what you are battering with. A strong wooden door I could see you maybe getting away with it. But a stone or especially thick metal door, the monk would give way first, even with the high speed.
Now, with a Stoneskin... :D
You know, I think at this rate an arguement could be made for dealing damage as a living battering ram. I mean sure, there's more straightforward ways of hurting something at 20th level, but there has to be some allowance for cool factor, right?
Well, that's true. But you also have take into account of what you are battering with. A strong wooden door I could see you maybe getting away with it. But a stone or especially thick metal door, the monk would give way first, even with the high speed.
Now, with a Stoneskin... :D
A high level monk already hits as if his fists were adamantine :)
Hence why there's no rules for a "Flying Kick" attack that's based on scaling bonuses... the potential for a high bonus to jumping could make this attack devastating, even at the lower levels.
That's some epic imagery though: a Monk who, from a standing position, jump kicked someone who's right next to him and dealing hundreds of damage (or potentially flinging him 50 feet away) in some sort of "one-inch-punch" style attack, only with his foot.
Actually, by the higher levels, I don't see why this could be a problem (damage might be, but flinging people I don't see why it'd be a problem).
Imagine a Bull Rush check that used your Acrobatics Jump check instead of CMB. Make a successful attack and get this free bull rush that could fling the guy 5' + 5' for every 5 points you beat his CMD.
There are spells that do far worse than that.
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Hmm...
Super flying monk jump!
You need a slightly custom item, but the image is hilarious.
Magicdealers Instant Fortress of Returning:
This magical fortress functions in all ways as Instant Fortress... with one exception. Upon deactivating the fortress, the cube flies to your hand as though it were a weapon with the returning property.
Jump 37 feet or so.
Activate Instant Fortress.
Run up side of instant fortress.
+30 ft.
Jump and deactivate instant fortress.
+37 or so more feet.
Total upwards speed this round: 104 ft.
Next round, pop the fotress and run up it
jump and deactivate the fortress.
Worst comes to worst, he can always pop the tower right before he hits the ground and use it to slow his fall :p
If I have a character wearing medium or heavy armor (which reduces his speed from 30 to 20), does this reduced speed also give him a -4 to jump?
Technically, both 20 ft. and 30 ft. will be written on the character sheet.
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Holy thread rez, Ravingman!
Armor section, Speed: "Medium or heavy armor slows the wearer down. The number on table 6-6 is the character's speed while wearing the armor."
Yikes.
Acrobatics section "Creatures with a base land speed below 30 feet receive a -4 racial bonus on Acrobatics checks made to jump for every 10 feet of their speed below 30"
So, while in armor, you take the -4. While not wearing the armor, you do not take the -4.
Ye's, I wa's al'so wondering about the ba'se 'speed
If you do not ease up on the apostrophes, I am going to crucify with them! :P
Holy thread rez, Ravingman!
I thought this looked familiar. Teaches me not to look at dates and times.