Is the Demoralize option an area of effect or single target?
It looks like the rules support both opinions. I have a character in the group that uses Demoralize all the time in combat, and he insists it's an AoE (of course).
Any help/examples/references are appreciated.
Thanks in advance.
The demoralize option is single-target only. If your player wishes to be able to do it as an aoe ability, he should take the Dazzling Display feat. I realize that the section of the skill description that describes the demoralize option is ambiguous on the subject, but common sense says that the feat would not exist if demoralize could be done aoe without it.
The demoralize option is single-target only. If your player wishes to be able to do it as an aoe ability, he should take the Dazzling Display feat. I realize that the section of the skill description that describes the demoralize option is ambiguous on the subject, but common sense says that the feat would not exist if demoralize could be done aoe without it.
Thanks for the quick reply, Mabven! :)
That makes sense. I wish I had noticed that feat earlier.
As an aside, is the shaken condition caused by Demoralize considered a fear effect? More to the point, does the Bravery bonus the fighter gets trigger against an Intimidate (Demoralize) attempt?
As an aside, is the shaken condition caused by Demoralize considered a fear effect? More to the point, does the Bravery bonus the fighter gets trigger against an Intimidate (Demoralize) attempt?
As an aside, is the shaken condition caused by Demoralize considered a fear effect? More to the point, does the Bravery bonus the fighter gets trigger against an Intimidate (Demoralize) attempt?Yes, it is a fear effect, though it explicitly will not stack with any other fear affects.
Yes, Bravery works against Intimidate.
Thanks Majuba! Not to be too nitpicky, but can you point me to a reference or page number?
Remove Fear just got a lot batter!
As an aside, is the shaken condition caused by Demoralize considered a fear effect? More to the point, does the Bravery bonus the fighter gets trigger against an Intimidate (Demoralize) attempt?Yes, it is a fear effect, though it explicitly will not stack with any other fear affects.
Yes, Bravery works against Intimidate.
To my knowledge both your points are actually wrong. There is nothing in demoralize to prevent it from stacking and increasing to a worse effect, and Bravery only increases your Will save, as Intimidate is not based off your save.
Its a great house rule to let Bravery affect it, however, and one that I fully endorse.
The Bard's Dirge of Doom is the only effect that causes shaken that will not stack to cause fear that I know of, but the way it is worded if it is the first effect to cause shaken then later effects will stack.
I completely agree with Caineach.
It makes sense to allow bonuses to saves vs fear effects a character has to increase the DC of an Intimidate check made against that character.
However, this may be a slippery slope argument. Why not add you whole Will save if you can add bonuses vs fear? Is a paladin immune to intimidation?
IMO, the Intimidate DC should be set by Will save (with bonuses vs fear) not character level. Strong Willed characters are harder to intimidate.
I completely agree with Caineach.
It makes sense to allow bonuses to saves vs fear effects a character has to increase the DC of an Intimidate check made against that character.
However, this may be a slippery slope argument. Why not add you whole Will save if you can add bonuses vs fear? Is a paladin immune to intimidation?
IMO, the Intimidate DC should be set by Will save (with bonuses vs fear) not character level. Strong Willed characters are harder to intimidate.
The Paladin is immune to demoralize. He is immune to fear, and shaken is a fear effect. So even if he is demoralized, it has no effect.
My GM ruled that anything that gave a specific bonus to fear also affected demoralize. It was his way to keep it in line.
I'm not sure why they chose to base it off of lvl instead of will save, but I prefer it that way. It makes it so non-will save classes are just as hard to intimidate, and it scales better with a skill.
Hmmm, I'm not sure it matters for anything, but a Paladin is not immune to Demoralize, only the shaken condition it causes. I can't find an example of where it would matter, but if something triggered off of the success of a Demoralize attempt then it would still happen if the target was a paladin.
But as Caineach says, "even if he is demoralized, it has no effect."
I agree that the current DC scales well since there is no opposing skill to Intimidate, but the demoralize action doesn't really fit with other skills.
With other skills, the target's class, race, etc matter. For example, it's harder to Acrobatics/Tumble around a fighter than a wizard (in most cases). The fighter is trained (high BaB) to be better at it than a wizard and is harder to move around.
Is it that much of a stretch to say that Intimidate should follow suit?
Also, which poor Will Save classes are we worried about here?
-Barbarian? bonuses to Will saves when raging
-Bard? Good Will save
-Cleric? Good Will save + Wisdom is key ability
-Druid? Good Will save + Wisdom is key ability
-Fighter? Gets Bravery
-Monk? Good Will save + Wisdom is key ability
-Paladin? adds Charisma to saves and is immune to fear
-Ranger? this one is close, but Wisdom is key ability
-Rogue? ok, this class would suffer
-Sorcerer? Good Will save
-Wizard? Good Will save
What if Intimidate's DC = 10 + 1/2 HD + Will save vs Fear?
Hmmm, I'm not sure it matters for anything, but a Paladin is not immune to Demoralize, only the shaken condition it causes. I can't find an example of where it would matter, but if something triggered off of the success of a Demoralize attempt then it would still happen if the target was a paladin.
But as Caineach says, "even if he is demoralized, it has no effect."
I agree that the current DC scales well since there is no opposing skill to Intimidate, but the demoralize action doesn't really fit with other skills.
With other skills, the target's class, race, etc matter. For example, it's harder to Acrobatics/Tumble around a fighter than a wizard (in most cases). The fighter is trained (high BaB) to be better at it than a wizard and is harder to move around.
Is it that much of a stretch to say that Intimidate should follow suit?
Also, which poor Will Save classes are we worried about here?
-Barbarian? bonuses to Will saves when raging
-Bard? Good Will save
-Cleric? Good Will save + Wisdom is key ability
-Druid? Good Will save + Wisdom is key ability
-Fighter? Gets Bravery
-Monk? Good Will save + Wisdom is key ability
-Paladin? adds Charisma to saves and is immune to fear
-Ranger? this one is close, but Wisdom is key ability
-Rogue? ok, this class would suffer
-Sorcerer? Good Will save
-Wizard? Good Will saveWhat if Intimidate's DC = 10 + 1/2 HD + Will save vs Fear?
Fighter, Rogue, and Ranger, and Barbarian were the ones I was thinking of, adn they should be the hardest to intimidate after the Paladin IMO. Rage is a +2 and Bravery is still worse than good saves. Intimidate's DC = 10 + 1/2 HD + Will save vs Fear is worse for all of those classes except fighter, unless they spend a decent amount in a cloak of resistance. But I don't feel as though a cloak of resistance should help. Intimidate is a mundane effect, and I like the fact that magic can't help you.
Yeah, I like Intimidate as a mundane way to cause a status effect.
Back to the house rule question though... Where does one draw the line?
If a fighter's bravery raises the Intimidate DC then surely Bless does too, right? Since they are both morale bonuses vs fear effects. But if Bless does, why don't Prayer/Heroism/Good Hope? If those do, why not Cloaks of Resistance? Why not the whole Will save.
I'd say that it's another benefit of the fighter's bravery. Like a separate effect with the same bonus. like "In addition to adding this bonus to Will saving throws against fear effects, a fighter increases the DC of Intimidate checks made to Demoralize him by the same number."
Similar additions could be made to other abilities, like barbarian's rage. It makes sense to me that a raging barbarian might be a little harder to intimidate. So add the bonus to Will saves from rage to the DC of Intimidate checks.
Yeah, I like Intimidate as a mundane way to cause a status effect.
Back to the house rule question though... Where does one draw the line?
If a fighter's bravery raises the Intimidate DC then surely Bless does too, right? Since they are both morale bonuses vs fear effects. But if Bless does, why don't Prayer/Heroism/Good Hope? If those do, why not Cloaks of Resistance? Why not the whole Will save.
I'd say that it's another benefit of the fighter's bravery. Like a separate effect with the same bonus. like "In addition to adding this bonus to Will saving throws against fear effects, a fighter increases the DC of Intimidate checks made to Demoralize him by the same number."
Similar additions could be made to other abilities, like barbarian's rage. It makes sense to me that a raging barbarian might be a little harder to intimidate. So add the bonus to Will saves from rage to the DC of Intimidate checks.
As I said earlier, any bonus that explicitly states bonus to fear effects I would allow. I see these as increasing your courage, instead of genaric resistance bonuses which I see as more fighting off the magical effects.
So, a spell called "Heroism" doesn't make you more courageous while one called "Bless" does?
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Um, just a nitpick.. it's 10+1/2 HD + WIS modifier, NOT Will save. But if you're asking as a house rule it might be better... You can really crank up an Intimidate (not to mention Bluff & Diplomacy)!!!
Thankfully you get that +5 to thr DC if you've been subject to an intimidate check already.
--Vrock the Casbah!
As an aside, is the shaken condition caused by Demoralize considered a fear effect?
Yes, it is a fear effect, though it explicitly will not stack with any other fear affects.
To my knowledge both your points are actually wrong. There is nothing in demoralize to prevent it from stacking and increasing to a worse effect...
Caineach is correct, there is nothing under Intimidate that says the Demoralize action doesn't stack. Also on page 563 there is a section below the Fear conditions stating that it DOES stack, see below.
Demoralize: (same page as Intimidate skill) You can use this skill to cause your opponents to become shaken for a number of rounds. The DC of this check is equal to 10 + the target's Hit Dice + the target's Wisdom modifier. If you are successful, the target is shaken for 1 round. This duration increases by 1 round for every 5 by which you beat the DC. You can only threaten opponents in this way if they are within 30 feet and can clearly see and hear you.
Becoming Even More Fearful: (page 563) Fear effects are cumulative. A shaken character who is made shaken again becomes frightened, and a shaken character who is made frightened becomes panicked instead. A frightened character who is made shaken or frightened becomes panicked instead.
In my recent Feat searches I found DAUNTING PRESENCE in the Miniature's Handbook, works similarly to Dazzling Display (30 feet AoE, Shaken), the exceptions are: lasts for 10 MINUTES, a Standard action(not Full-Round Action), but has NO effect on creatures who are already Shaken. (Specified by the Feat)
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This has been discussed and JJ made a statement back in October. It's unfortunate we keep having discussions that an official FAQ would resolve, but alas, it hasn't happened yet.
Until that day arrives, you can always visit the unofficial FAQ.
Q: (10/8/09) Does the above mean a Shaken condition imposed by a Intimidate Skill - Demoralise can never be upgraded by another use source of a Fear condition?
A: (Joshua J. Frost) Correct. Though, as noted above, it can extend the duration of the shaken condition. [Source]Q: (10/8/09) Does this idea that Shaken + Shaken only increases the duration of the Shaken condition come into effect only when Demoralise is in the mix?
A: (Joshua J. Frost) Yes. [Source]
This does not make sense. It says it can't be stacked by iteself nor with anyother thing, and then it says it does... which is it?
Vrock, I was suggesting a house rule that would incorporate the target's full Will save.
Also, the DC of an Intimidate check is 10 + the target's Hit Dice + their Wisdom modifier.
Reading the Core Book again and seeing Vrock's post brings up another question: Does the +5 increase to the DC for the "Try Again" part of the skill apply to BOTH Demoralizing and Intimidating for attitude change?
This has been discussed and JJ made a statement back in October. It's unfortunate we keep having discussions that an official FAQ would resolve, but alas, it hasn't happened yet.
Until that day arrives, you can always visit the unofficial FAQ.
Can you give any rules explanation for this, because as far as I can tell it flatly contradicts what my book says. And why would they rule that way, it makes the ability way more complicated and nerfs something that doesn't really need it.
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Can you give any rules explanation for this, because as far as I can tell it flatly contradicts what my book says. And why would they rule that way, it makes the ability way more complicated and nerfs something that doesn't really need it.This has been discussed and JJ made a statement back in October. It's unfortunate we keep having discussions that an official FAQ would resolve, but alas, it hasn't happened yet.
Until that day arrives, you can always visit the unofficial FAQ.
We don't make the rules, we just report them :)
You should be able to find the original statement from Paizo by clicking the "Source" link in the FAQ entry. I'd post any questions to Paizo folks on those original threads.
Can you give any rules explanation for this, because as far as I can tell it flatly contradicts what my book says. And why would they rule that way, it makes the ability way more complicated and nerfs something that doesn't really need it.This has been discussed and JJ made a statement back in October. It's unfortunate we keep having discussions that an official FAQ would resolve, but alas, it hasn't happened yet.
Until that day arrives, you can always visit the unofficial FAQ.
We don't make the rules, we just report them :)
You should be able to find the original statement from Paizo by clicking the "Source" link in the FAQ entry. I'd post any questions to Paizo folks on those original threads.
I can't get to your site from here, but I found the original posts searching. There is no explanation there as to why the ruling was made in this way, and very little discussion of it.
I can't get to your site from here, but I found the original posts searching. There is no explanation there as to why the ruling was made in this way, and very little discussion of it.
I agree that it doesn't make much sense.
I have to admit that the whole discussion seems a bit confusing to me. Is the Demoralize effect of Intimidate treated as a Fear effect or not?
And does it effect more than one target at once? I see a lot of contradictions, so I'll probably have to house rule it some until an official FAQ comes out.
Until then, I'll use the PFSRD FAQ. For what it's worth, I think the Demoralize options should be a Fear effect.
Oh, and a hearty thank you for all the advice and links. This really helps a lot.
Typically, Demoralizing an opponent takes a standard action and can target a creature (single target) within 30 feet.
A successful Demoralize (Intimidate check vs 10 + target's HD + target's Wis mod) causes the creature to become shaken for one or more rounds. Shaken is a type of fear condition.
With certain feat options, class abilities, etc., Demoralize can target more than one opponent at a time. An example of this is the Dazzling Display feat which allows a character to use a full-round action to Demoralize all enemies within 30 feet.
Much of the discussion in this thread is about how we also think Intimidate is a fear effect. However, since it is a skill check and not a saving throw, any class abilities, spells, etc. that boost saves against fear have no effect against Intimidate RAW. Even a paladin can be Intimidated (though to no effect since she's immune to the shaken condition). The rest are suggestions, criticisms and house rules for altering the Intimidate/Demoralize mechanics to include bonuses to saves vs fear.