It has recently come to my attention that...
PRD -> Magic Items -> Magic Item Description -> Caster level:
"Caster Level (CL): The next item in a notational entry gives the caster level of the item, indicating its relative power. The caster level determines the item's saving throw bonus, as well as range or other level-dependent aspects of the powers of the item (if variable). It also determines the level that must be contended with should the item come under the effect of a dispel magic spell or similar situation.
For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell but not higher than her own caster level. "
...is an error in the text.
According to Sean Connery...
Sean K. Reynolds wrote:
Anyway, caster level is NOT a prereq unless the item's Requirement section specifically lists a caster level.
...you do not have to have a caster level equal to the item's caster level (which make sense, otherwise pearls of power are crazy).
The rules also say you can upgrade magical items (provided you have the right item creation feats), simply by paying the difference in gold, expending the necessary amount of time, and making a new skill check if the DC changes at all. For example, making a +1 longsword into a +2 longsword costs the creator 6,000gp.
[No rules quote for that one, but I know the text exists.]
The rules for skills also allow me to take 10 on my skill check as there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING preventing that possibility.
...So, naturally, I follow this to its natural conclusion...
MAKING SUPER CL'd ITEMS!
Say, for example, I have a wondrous item (We will call it Item X) that has a starting caster level of 5. That means it has a base DC of 10 to create (if I meet all the prerequisites). This item is key to my character's build and so I don't want it getting dispelled or otherwise destroyed/disabled. So I decide to use my item creation feat to "upgrade" the item's caster level.
Since I am a 15th-level wizard with a Spellcraft modifier of +37 (for example), I can automatically reach a DC of 47 by taking 10. Therefore, I can upgrade my item's cast level to 37 (47 - the base DC = 37).
That means the item is essentially impossible to dispel prior to epic levels and has a saving throw modifier of +20 to protect itself from harm.
Alternatively, instead of upgrading an existing item, I could (GM permitting) make an entirely new magical item from scratch with an inflated caster level.
In fact, I could arguably do this with ALL of my magical gear without having to spend a single gp. Kinda makes sense to me that the gear made by a powerful archmage would be harder to dispel/destroy than that of a hedge mage.
Ah, for taking rules cheeze to its inevitable conclusion. I think the only thing preventing you from doing this in the rules is the part where it says the GM gets to determine if its possible and gets to adjust the final price. Kinda like how the AC boosting items that have continuous use mage armor don't cost what a 1st lvl spell item would. And since I don't see anyting that has CL increase cost, this seems fun :)
Creative Director
|
Caster levels for items cannot be changed, as a general rule, unless they're things like wands or scrolls or other spell trigger or spell completion items.
You could theoretically increase the caster level for a wondrous item or other magic item, but that'd need GM approval and would increase the base cost of the item as appropriate.
Simply rolling well on your craft check won't let you end-run around these rules. Caster level is not determined by your check's result.
|
Actually, as RAW go, I don't think you can. (Even with Sean's "errata".)
I read Sean's statement to mean you don't have to be a 10th level Wizard (for example) to create an item with a caster level listed as 10th. As far as I can tell, Sean doesn't say anything about the text you have in large font above.
So, you could still create potions, scrolls and wands with any caster level you can make the Spellcraft check for (that can still cast the spell in question), but you can't super CL wondrous items, or anything else.
(Ninja'd by the director!) Yeah, what he said. 8^)
Caster levels for items cannot be changed, as a general rule, unless they're things like wands or scrolls or other spell trigger or spell completion items.
You could theoretically increase the caster level for a wondrous item or other magic item, but that'd need GM approval and would increase the base cost of the item as appropriate.
Simply rolling well on your craft check won't let you end-run around these rules. Caster level is not determined by your check's result.
Thanks for jumping in on this one.
So that keeps me from upgrading items (though I still don't see anything in the actual text to support your statement).
There is nothing written within the rules that prevents me from (GM permitting) making a homebrew belt of mighty constitution with a higher caster level though is there? We would give it a different name and higher price tag (though I don't know how you would begin to adjudicate the new price), but in the end, we would still be talking about an inflated belt of mighty constitution.
After all, nobody wants to lose their level x3 in hit points due to a simple dispel effect, right?
If you aren't going to use item creation feats to make items unique to your character than their is little point to them other than saving money (at the expense of time) or otherwise living on a desert island in the middle of a low magic campaign, right?
Since I am a 15th-level wizard with a Spellcraft modifier of +37 (for example), I can automatically reach a DC of 47 by taking 10. Therefore, I can upgrade my item's cast level to 37 (47 - the base DC = 37).
Where do you get that your character's caster level is equal to his skill check minus 10?
|
|
(I know I'm not James, but... 8^)
So that keeps me from upgrading items (though I still don't see anything in the actual text to support your statement).
This:
For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself.
There is nothing written within the rules that prevents me from (GM permitting) making a homebrew belt of mighty constitution with a higher caster level though is there?
(Emphasis mine.) Absolutely not! That is, after all, "Rule 0".
Amending my previous post, Sean's statement above, as far as I can tell, only negates this part of the PRD's text:
In this case, the creator's caster level must be as high as the item's caster level
Since I am a 15th-level wizard with a Spellcraft modifier of +37 (for example), I can automatically reach a DC of 47 by taking 10. Therefore, I can upgrade my item's cast level to 37 (47 - the base DC = 37).Where do you get that your character's caster level is equal to his skill check minus 10?
Your skill check -10 is the highest caster level of an item you can reliably make. You do not need to to actually be a caster level to make an item of that level.
Your skill check -10 is the highest caster level of an item you can reliably make. You do not need to to actually be a caster level to make an item of that level.
Then why does it say "In this case, the creator's caster level must be as high as the item's caster level"?
EDIT: Oh, I see he's claiming that's a misprint.
Where do you get that your character's caster level is equal to his skill check minus 10?
He is basing that on the craft DC of 5+Caster Level, which happened to equal 10 in his example.
Caster Level listed provides two things:
My interpretation is that when you actually create a magic item, unless it has a caster level based effect, it gets your caster level. If it does have a caster level based effect, you would have to increase the cost if you increase the caster level. No, there aren't any rules for me to quote for this, but I do think that is the general point of the rules.
As James said, the check doesn't determine the caster level. The item and the creator do. If you manage to create a Pearl of Power at 5th level, I would consider the Pearl's CL to be 5th, not 17th. It's a maddeningly complex item, but it's strength is not based on that caster level like a Circlet of Blasting would be. If a 20th level caster made one, it would be 20th.
Yes, I would allow it, but it will cost more to create. I would say that whenever you increase the caster level of an item you increase it's cost by 1/x where "x" is the original caster level of the item. So increasing a CL 5 item to a CL 10 will cost twice as much, but increasing it's CL by 1 increases it by 1/5.
|
Hey there! Can anyone point me to where this "Sean K. Reynolds" said this? And is this an official ruling? (On the "don't need to be level equal to CL" part).
Briefly, I'm a third-level caster/magical item maker, and since I have astounding Spellcraft checks, I'd like to go ahead and start making items that have a CL of higher than 3. Not "changing" the CL as the poster above was talking about, but simply making items that have a CL listed that is higher than 3.
Also, when CL is in the "requirements" section at the bottom, is this treated like other requirements where I can still make the items if I don't have it, but the DC is just increased by 5?
Thanks in advance!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Actually, I as a DM love that you don't have to be a certain caster level to create a magic item. Since use-activated spells don't need the spell to be cast (though not having it results in +5 DC) I can use it to let my low- to midlevel evil wizards and clerics use mighty rituals. The ritual itself becomes a magic item, taking several days to craft and costing a lot, and upon the final moment the "item" is used to create the spell effect.
Effectively, the magic item crafting rules now may work as a system for casting slower magical effects. I'm soon going to subject my low-level group of adventurers to an orc cleric using this to both create undead and spread diseases.
Personally, I hate the idea of caster level not being a requirement for the creating of a magical item.
Rogue takes a 3 level dip into sorcerer. So, a 6th level character could have a spellcraft check of : 6 (Ranks) + 4 (INT) + 3 (Trained) + 3 (Skill Focus) : 16
Add in someone else assisting with the spellcraft check : +2
Add in for masterwork tools : +2
Final check : 20
This character could reliably create CL 10 or less items. Such as a cube of force, or dark skull (since they'd need only a +5 roll to do it, missing the spell as a pre-req).
This character could have a 50/50 chance of creating a CL 15 object provided it only has one spell he doesn't have access to.
As the rogue goes up in level, his ability to create magic items (with only 3 levels of sorcerer) is likely better than a full sorcerer or druid or cleric's ability, and approaches a wizard's ability even if they don't MC because INT is an important state for the rogue. This is because the rogue has more skill points to spend at the very least. Additionally, there would be some argument that Skill Mastery would allow them to take 10 on their crafting checks even if they are rushed, so could craft in a rush without blowing their rolls on items.
I just don't like the idea that any character who has dabbled in magic (caster level 3) can make wondrous items as good or better than a fully dedicated caster of the same character level.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Personally, I hate the idea of caster level not being a requirement for the creating of a magical item.
You have very fair points, though I do not agree on the conclusion. That might be because I mostly play at lower levels, though. Remember though, that the rogue/sorcerer will have fewer of the spells needed than even a cleric or druid - and if a cleric has a single component that the rogue doesn't, thats a +5 to him compared to the rogue.
I don't have a problem with an intelligent person who has spent a lot of time studying the theories of magic (having a maxed spellcraft skill and focus in it) but don't have as much talent for the practical parts to be equally good at creating magic items as someone who isn't as smart (and may lack the theoretical focus) but instead has a lot of practical experience of spellcasting, often being the better item creator. When the person with experience can use that experience (when he has the spells on his list), he has the upper hand, and when neither person has access to the needed spells, the one with the largest theoretical knowledge has the upper hand.That seems fair to my mind, though that doesn't necessarily mean it's fair in game balance terms or the like.
EDIT: As an example, the mentioned Darkskull requires unhallow, so a cleric or druid of at least 5th level will always have the upper hand unless the rogue has an intelligence score at least 10 higher than the priests.
Personally, I hate the idea of caster level not being a requirement for the creating of a magical item.
Rogue takes a 3 level dip into sorcerer. So, a 6th level character could have a spellcraft check of : 6 (Ranks) + 4 (INT) + 3 (Trained) + 3 (Skill Focus) : 16
Add in someone else assisting with the spellcraft check : +2
Add in for masterwork tools : +2Final check : 20
This character could reliably create CL 10 or less items. Such as a cube of force, or dark skull (since they'd need only a +5 roll to do it, missing the spell as a pre-req).
This character could have a 50/50 chance of creating a CL 15 object provided it only has one spell he doesn't have access to.
As the rogue goes up in level, his ability to create magic items (with only 3 levels of sorcerer) is likely better than a full sorcerer or druid or cleric's ability, and approaches a wizard's ability even if they don't MC because INT is an important state for the rogue. This is because the rogue has more skill points to spend at the very least. Additionally, there would be some argument that Skill Mastery would allow them to take 10 on their crafting checks even if they are rushed, so could craft in a rush without blowing their rolls on items.
I just don't like the idea that any character who has dabbled in magic (caster level 3) can make wondrous items as good or better than a fully dedicated caster of the same character level.
There is nothing in the rules from preventing anyone from taking 10 on crafting checks. Presumably, you are not crafting magic items while under threat.
Also, why is it bad for low level characters to be able to craft higher caster level items. The caster level isn't really a ballance on the item, and is often pretty arbitrary, just like the required spells. I mean, a pearl of power is CL17. This is an item lvl 3 characters should have access to. Sovern Glue is CL20, and is a 2400 gp item. If you force CL to be a factor in crafting items, suddenly you end up with major inconsistencies in your game world, because what self respecting lvl20 wizard is spending his time making sovern glue so that anyone in a small city can get their hands on it without much trouble? And if your Rogue/Sorcerer spent the feat on item creation, why should he get less benefitt than a full caster who spent the same feat?
EDIT: As an example, the mentioned Darkskull requires unhallow, so a cleric or druid of at least 5th level will always have the upper hand unless the rogue has an intelligence score at least 10 higher than the priests.
That's not actually as big a difference as you think. Remember, INT is a dump state (normally) for both druids and clerics. For Rogues it's a high secondary stat (especially for skill monkeys).
So, they are likely to have a +3 or +4, where a cleric or druid will only have a +0 or +1.
So that +5 actually ends up being a +1 to +3 in favor of the cleric/druid.
There is nothing in the rules from preventing anyone from taking 10 on crafting checks. Presumably, you are not crafting magic items while under threat.Also, why is it bad for low level characters to be able to craft higher caster level items. The caster level isn't really a ballance on the item, and is often pretty arbitrary, just like the required spells. I mean, a pearl of power is CL17. This is an item lvl 3 characters should have access to. Sovern Glue is CL20, and is a 2400 gp item. If you force CL to be a factor in crafting items,...
Ok, granted. Forgot that you could take 10 on the crafting check.
However, you didn't understand my objection. I don't object, necessarily, to a low level caster making a higher level item. Money tends to prevent that. I object to a low caster level character being as good or better than a full caster level character.
I just don't think it is right that a level 3 sorcerer/17 rogue is as good (if not better) at making magic items than a level 20 sorcerer, and can make exactly the same items with often exactly the same DC check (as the sorcerer will often not have the spell he needs either). Same goes for 20th level clerics and druids (if they try to make an item that requires a wizard/sorcerer spell, often the sorcerer 3/rogue 17 will have a better roll than them, because he has the same penalty (+5 for not having the spell) but better int stat.
There is nothing in the rules from preventing anyone from taking 10 on crafting checks. Presumably, you are not crafting magic items while under threat.Also, why is it bad for low level characters to be able to craft higher caster level items. The caster level isn't really a ballance on the item, and is often pretty arbitrary, just like the required spells. I mean, a pearl of power is CL17. This is an item lvl 3 characters should have access to. Sovern Glue is CL20, and is a 2400 gp item. If you force CL to be a factor in crafting items,...
Ok, granted. Forgot that you could take 10 on the crafting check.
However, you didn't understand my objection. I don't object, necessarily, to a low level caster making a higher level item. Money tends to prevent that. I object to a low caster level character being as good or better than a full caster level character.
I just don't think it is right that a level 3 sorcerer/17 rogue is as good (if not better) at making magic items than a level 20 sorcerer, and can make exactly the same items with often exactly the same DC check (as the sorcerer will often not have the spell he needs either). Same goes for 20th level clerics and druids (if they try to make an item that requires a wizard/sorcerer spell, often the sorcerer 3/rogue 17 will have a better roll than them, because he has the same penalty (+5 for not having the spell) but better int stat.
I don't see this as a problem personally. They both spent the same ammount of character resources to get that good at crafting. Both spent the feat and a skill point. The fact that the rogue was able to do this at slightly less cost because he gets more skill points is outweighed in my mind by the fact that he gave up his ability to do something else that he is often expected to be able to do. I have yet to play a rogue who can max all the skills I want, even with 16 int. The cleric gets other benefits that counter the skill point benefit the rogue has, and its built into the rest of the class.
I actually dislike the existence of the Master Craftsman feat more than what you are complaining about. I would prefer if my straight rogue did not need to spend 2 feats to do what the rogue/sorcerer can do with just 1. I personally would remove the spellcasting requirement on craft feats and make it a spellcraft requirement.
That sorcerer 3/rogue 17 can't craft magic arms and armor, rings, rods, staves, and wands whereas the sorcerer 20 can.
I'd say that makes perfect sense to me.
Hey there! Can anyone point me to where this "Sean K. Reynolds" said this? And is this an official ruling? (On the "don't need to be level equal to CL" part).
Briefly, I'm a third-level caster/magical item maker, and since I have astounding Spellcraft checks, I'd like to go ahead and start making items that have a CL of higher than 3. Not "changing" the CL as the poster above was talking about, but simply making items that have a CL listed that is higher than 3.
Also, when CL is in the "requirements" section at the bottom, is this treated like other requirements where I can still make the items if I don't have it, but the DC is just increased by 5?
To answer your questions, I'm not sure where SKR said that, but it's not just "an official ruling", it's explicitly stated in the rulebook that it's the items *following* Caster level that are prerequisites. I don't think there's been anything official on adding +5 when caster level *is* a prereq that you don't meet.
I actually dislike the existence of the Master Craftsman feat more than what you are complaining about. I would prefer if my straight rogue did not need to spend 2 feats to do what the rogue/sorcerer can do with just 1. I personally would remove the spellcasting requirement on craft feats and make it a spellcraft requirement.
I've gone the opposite way: Master Craftsman is the only requirement to craft magic items of that craft. You don't need to ALSO have the item creation feat.
*SHRUG*
Not worth arguing with everyone about. I think it's cheesy that a wizard/cleric/druid devoted his life to mastering magic can be out-done by a rogue who dabbled at it for a few years but spent all his life making magic items to help him break into places.
Obviously, I'm the only one. Not worth arguing about.
I think it's cheesy that a wizard/cleric/druid devoted his life to mastering magic can be out-done by a rogue who dabbled at it for a few years but spent all his life making magic items to help him break into places.
Not trying to argue, but this is how I see it:
Making magic items is more than just the spellcasting. It's about constructing something that is as easily enchanted as possible. And someone with 3 levels has more than dabbled at it - put him in a large town, and he's probably one of the highest-ranking mages there. Combine that with being an expert at the theory of magic, and there you have it. Still, if the wizard/cleric/druid devoted their whole life to mastering magic, they'd be better anyway! The wizard would be straight of better, seeing as how he's got at least as high skill points, more access to magic creation feats, and has a much bigger chance of having the spells. The cleric and druid will be better than the rogue at creating "divine" magic items (while they aren't divine, those that require divine spells), but might be slightly worse at "arcane" items than the rogue because they are stupider. Still, a cleric or druid that has devoted their life to mastering magic might very well not be the full-out adventuring kind, but rather cloistered priests or a student of the nature and the world. I could see stating up this kind of character, but it would probably have intelligence as it's second highest stat.
While we're on this what is the ruling on "Taking Ten" in magic item creation? I tend to disallow taking ten on any magical operation, especially crafting, but I see alot of people using the rule to auto-succeed when they're cutting corners in magic item creation by upping the DC.
What it boils down to is that there's nothing in the rules that says you can't take 10 on crafting checks, or spellcraft checks. If your character is not in immediate danger and is undistracted, you can take 10, except where the rules say specifically that you can't (such as Use Magic Device). Simple as that.
I think it's cheesy that a wizard/cleric/druid devoted his life to mastering magic can be out-done by a rogue who dabbled at it for a few years but spent all his life making magic items to help him break into places.Not trying to argue, but this is how I see it:
Making magic items is more than just the spellcasting. It's about constructing something that is as easily enchanted as possible. And someone with 3 levels has more than dabbled at it - put him in a large town, and he's probably one of the highest-ranking mages there.
Compared to a 20th level sorcerer/wizard/cleric/druid a rogue 17/sorcerer 3 is a dabbler. He's spent 15% of his life as a mage, the other four spent 100% of their life as a magic user. It's like the difference between someone who took pre-med and then went into programming for 30 years vs someone who's did pre-med, internship, and then 25 years of being a general practitioner.
As to the ease....
I had a nice long post showing skill levels and progress per day, but when I went to double check my math, I saw that Paizo had altered the rules on how to do magic items in gp per day.
It's no longer DC*Roll=GP. It's now 1000gp/day, or 2000gp/day for +5 to target number. Certainly speeds things up, and really renders this all moot, since you can basically crank out things twice as fast as before taking 10 and you don't need to put more than 10 or 15 ranks into it to always be able to do any item at 2x speed since you really need at max to hit a 30 DC (CL 20 + 5 no spell + 5 double speed). You can hit that on a take 10 at 10th level easily (10 ranks + Skill Focus).
That sorcerer 3/rogue 17 can't craft magic arms and armor, rings, rods, staves, and wands whereas the sorcerer 20 can.
I'd say that makes perfect sense to me.
As shown above, the sorcerer 3/rogue 17 is just a dabbler (when it comes to making magical items).
As shown above, the sorcerer 3/rogue 17 is just a dabbler (when it comes to making magical items).That sorcerer 3/rogue 17 can't craft magic arms and armor, rings, rods, staves, and wands whereas the sorcerer 20 can.
I'd say that makes perfect sense to me.
No, since crafting magic items isn't restricted to mages. He's a dabbler at casting magic. Per definition, since he's quite good at creating magic items, he's not just a dabbler.
Though, he's somewhat limited in being able to only craft wondrous items. No staves, rings, scrolls or wands.
EDIT: To explain further: Since casting spells isn't a requirement of creating magic items, but only something that helps, it's important to note that the most important factor to create magic items is the theoretical knowledge of how magic work (spellcraft). Since this rogue has put ranks into the this knowledge every level, he has just as much knowledge as the sorcerer - he just can't cast spells.
See it the same way as for example programming a game - the key knowledge is theoretical knowledge of programming, though it helps to have played games in the genre to know what people want. The rogue has studied gaming for years - the sorcerer has studied for years, and has played strategy games, but isn't as smart. When programming RTS's, the sorcerer has the upper hand, when programming anything else, the smart rogue might have the upper hand even though he hasn't played the genre (because neither has the rogue!)
Thanks to James, we have the official RAI on the matter, but is there anything within RAW preventing me from doing what I describe in the original post?
Or is it left up to GM fiat?
Thanks to James, we have the official RAI on the matter, but is there anything within RAW preventing me from doing what I describe in the original post?
Or is it left up to GM fiat?
I don't think there is anything RAW saying you can't. The problem is you are working with custom magic items, so need to figure out a price with your GM. What is the price difference between a Belt of Mighty Constitution +2 (CL8) and one that is CL(20)? Scrolls/wands/potions/etc have caster level baked into their formulas, so it's easy to figure out for them.
A simple formula would be Normal cost*(Desired CL/book CL)
But what you are asking to do is not covered specifically with the rules, so you'll need to hash something out with your GM (or make your own call if you are running)
I don't think there is anything RAW saying you can't. The problem is you are working with custom magic items, so need to figure out a price with your GM. What is the price difference between a Belt of Mighty Constitution +2 (CL8) and one that is CL(20)? Scrolls/wands/potions/etc have caster level baked into their formulas, so it's easy to figure out for them.
A simple formula would be Normal cost*(Desired CL/book CL)
But what you are asking to do is not covered specifically with the rules, so you'll need to hash something out with your GM (or make your own call if you are running)
+1,000gp per caster level increase seems reasonable to me.
What do you think?
I think technically it's making a new item.. which is entirely up to the DM.
-James
Which is why I said GM fiat. Never once said that this wasn't the case.
In fact, I could arguably do this with ALL of my magical gear without having to spend a single gp.
The "without having to spend a single gp" part is not quite right.
The Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values clearly shows that for any item with a spell-like effect a change to the CL will require additional gold.
But, yes, the effects at the top of the table (ability boost, AC, saves, skills, SR, weapon bonus) do indeed seem to work the way you describe.
I don't think there is anything RAW saying you can't. The problem is you are working with custom magic items, so need to figure out a price with your GM. What is the price difference between a Belt of Mighty Constitution +2 (CL8) and one that is CL(20)? Scrolls/wands/potions/etc have caster level baked into their formulas, so it's easy to figure out for them.
A simple formula would be Normal cost*(Desired CL/book CL)
But what you are asking to do is not covered specifically with the rules, so you'll need to hash something out with your GM (or make your own call if you are running)
+1,000gp per caster level increase seems reasonable to me.
What do you think?
What mechanical advantages does a higher CL give you? Assuming there are no effects based off of it (range, duration, etc), CL will just help vs. dispells. How often does this happen at your table? In my experience, not often; I can only recall one time where this happened (reoccurring villein with boots of teleportation relied on the same trick one too many times) So at my table, you are paying for something that will almost never come up. 1,000gp/CL might be a little steep for the insurance. At another table where different tactics reign? it might be a bargain at twice the price.
Also the nature of the item come into play. Very Bad Things can happen if your Hat of Disguise or Belt of Mighty Constitution gets turned off at the wrong time, so should cost more to "dispell resist" then a Bag of Tricks (Grey)
Do you have examples in mind, or is this more a theoretical exercise?
So how bout wanting to make a 5th level casting level wand of magic missiles for more missiles? Or a wondrous item that casts mount at a higher level for a better duration than 2 hours?
So how bout wanting to make a 5th level casting level wand of magic missiles for more missiles? Or a wondrous item that casts mount at a higher level for a better duration than 2 hours?
Nothing stopping you from creating those, so long as you are willing to pay the price at creation for the higher caster level.