Hello everyone,
We were discussing the Limited Wish spell with my DM and we got kind of embroiled with the casting time of the spell.
Let's assume we have a wizard who attempts to duplicate the effects of a Legend Lore spell by casting Limited Wish.
The question is: how much time would it take him to cast the spell? 1 standard action, or 4d10mins/1d10days/2d6 weeks, depending on the circumstances (as per the Legend Lore description)? Or something completely different?
Thanks in advance for the feedback! Fare well,
Durandal 1707
I would say it takes 1 standard action to use, it is duplicating the other spell, which I take to mean duplicating the effects of another spell. A one spell level bump and 1500 GP is certainly enough to warrant the lessened casting time. Basically you are wishing for the effects of the other spell, not the other spell to be cast. Now, I cannot find anywhere in the rules that states it explicitly but that is what makes sense for me. If I was wishing for something the character would not say things like "I wish to duplicate a legend lore effect" he would say "I wish I knew more about this person."
As far as I am concerned the wish and miracle spells give those effects listed as guidelines for how powerful the wish itself can be.
Many thanks Tikael :)
Are there any other opinions on this? Do you guys think that this can be solved within the ruleset without resorting to a house rule?
Cheers,
Durandal 1707
What he's trying to ask, no doubt, is why limited wish should be able to duplicate legend lore when there is already a 7th-level spell vision that allows you to produce a legend lore effect as a standard action. Vision requires you to make a Spellcraft check, while using limited wish would not, and thus you'd be using limited wish to effectively duplicate a 7th-level spell better than the original.
In this case, I figure you should still be required to make the Spellcraft check if you use limited wish for this purpose. That way, you produce the same effect with the same limitation, but you have to pay even more for the material component than you otherwise would have. A small price to pay to allow limited wish to technically duplicate a 7th-level spell, which it otherwise couldn't do.
Doesn't change my opinion of it, you are spending gold to do it and it seems reasonable for me. There might be some more clartification on the wish spells in the Gamemastery Guide
Mountains of advice for handling treasure and rewards, from extensive lists of sample treasures to guidelines for nonstandard rewards like NPC favors, adjudicating wish spells, and making magic items
(Emphasis Mine)
RickSummon nailed it: the balance of the spell is precisely my DM's concern.
However, my interest in the situation is more technical because I want to see what the actual *rules* have to say in the matter - hence my quest for an "official" answer.
The way I read it, the spell has a casting time of 1 standard action (it says so right under the "Casting Time" entry), not "see text" like Legend Lore does or "2 rounds minimum; see text" like Contingency does. Moreover, the spell discusses in length its other casting characteristics (e.g. material components exceeding 1000 gp) with respect to those of a duplicated spell, but there is no mention of casting time whatsoever in the spell description per se.
But, as RickSummon points out, the "1 standard action" casting time has potential balance issues (though I have to admit that I side with Tikael on the actual balance of the spell).
Regardless, I really want to avoid discussing balance issues (which are, in many cases, subjective), so do you think that there is an objective answer to this question (i.e. Rule A says that which, complemented with Rule B, implies that the answer is C)?
If no such rules are known, do you guys know if Paizo runs a dedicated rules questions CustServ like WOTC used to do for D&D 3.5 that would help us get an "official" answer?
Sorry if I'm being a bit of a pest and also apologies for being a total newb on the forum (which means, please don't flame me if I've broken etiquette somewhere ;) ).
Thanks again for all the feedback,
Durandal 1707
No worries, this is the place to come to try and get an official answer. Though you won't always get one. I think we might be stuck waiting on the gamemastery guide.
I was actually having a discussion with someone the other day about how wish is a truly underwhelming spell for it's level, sure it can do a lot but it's expensive to cast often and can do less than miracle can do (miracle is free for most requests). I have been looking forward to that gamemastery guide partly because of the promise of clarification for wish.
[url=http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sg/20050902a]Here is a WotC save my game article regarding 3.5 Wish[/url It isn't anything too informative and does not give any real advice for running the spell other than a basic "read the book".
Thanks Tikael, though I don't think we'll see much in terms of technical clarifications in the GM guide. Then again, you never know... :)
... also (bump). If anyone has any other ideas on the casting time of the spell, my DM and I are still looking for a more "rulesy" way to settle the issue.
Cheers,
Durandal 1707
Well the text for Limited Wish says it has a casting time of 1 standard action. That seems pretty clear to me.
Plus, what Tikael said.
If it was supposed to have a casting time equal to that of the spell which it is duplicating, it would have said as much.
Thats how we've always played it. Never been a problem.
The questions we always had was could somebody 'wish' for a metamagiced version of a spell, so long as it was within the spell level guidelines of limited wish. For instance, an Extended Haste is a fourth level spell effect; can limited wish grant that?
I think balance-wise it's fine to have limited wish work like a visions spell without a spellcraft check. You have to pay 1,500gp extra per cast. Spellcraft check versus 1,500gp. . .hmmm. . . (:
The questions we always had was could somebody 'wish' for a metamagiced version of a spell, so long as it was within the spell level guidelines of limited wish. For instance, an Extended Haste is a fourth level spell effect; can limited wish grant that?
Produce any other effect whose power level is in line with the above effects. . .
It's safe to say that extended haste is in line with the above effects (including duplicating a 4th level spell).
Oh the many uses of Limited Wish are truly impressive.
I miss the xp loss actually. The gp costs make it much less likely to be used.
I had a wizard/archmage who had limited wish as a spell like ability useable twice a day. That saved his butt more than once I can say; especially since, as a SLA, it had no components except for the xp cost. I remember one encounter we were fighting something and I got hit and failed some fort save. DM told me that I died. Then he gave me a note saying I was only paralyzed (although it looked like I had died to everyone else...yes it was a lich). My response? "Oh thats it? I can handle that." Two limited wishes later and I was immune to the liches attacks and completely unparalyzable (thanks Freedom of Movement and Death Ward!).
Another time one of the party members had died. We were trying to buy a diamond to cast raise dead, but the vendor was trying to take severe advantage of us. I finally lost my patience and decided to just reincarnate the dead PC. Only cost me the 300xp since the material component for reincarnate wasn't over 1000gp.
Many thanks for the feedback guys :)
Cheers,
Durandal 1707