Maybe this has been addressed in a FAQ or something.
If I have a +5 dragon bane sword and I am fighting a dragon is it a +7 weapon, or am I capped at having a +5 enhancement bonus?
I know of no official source on this, but by the absolutely strictest interpretation it would be capped at +5.
By my interpretation, circumstantial bonuses can bypass the limit and thus the bane weapon would be a +7 against its target.
This is how it officially worked in 3.0 and 3.5, although they had the exact same wording of a normal +5 enhancement bonus cap... I would say it is safe to assume it works the same way in Pathfinder unless we are told otherwise.
It would gain a +7 enhancement bonus against its bane target.
Doesn't that go against the ruling some of you game designers JUST made where it was said that under no circumstances could an armor/weapon's enhancement bonus go over +5 (or +10 when abilities are taken into account)?
I've quoted the relevant bits...
There are two things at play here:
Enhancement bonuses and special abilities.
Magic weapons have enhancement bonuses ranging from +1 to +5.So a weapon can never have an enhancement bonus above +5. Period.
Some magic weapons have special abilities. Special abilities count as additional bonuses for determining the market value of the item, but do not modify attack or damage bonuses (except where specifically noted). A single weapon cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents) higher than +10. A weapon with a special ability must also have at least a +1 enhancement bonus. Weapons cannot possess the same special ability more than once.Bold is mine. So you can have, at maximum, +5 worth of enhancement bonus and no more than +10 total of enhancement and special abilities, keeping in mind that some special abilities cost more than a +1 and that your weapon must possess a base +1 in order to have additional +1's spent on special abilities (eg., +1 frost longsword is legal, where a frost longsword is not).
Now it seems the paladin rules are causing some confusion.
At 5th level, this spirit grants the weapon a +1 enhancement bonus. For every three levels beyond 5th, the weapon gains another +1 enhancement bonus, to a maximum of +6 at 20th level.Ok, so paladins have the cool ability to add enhancement bonuses and special abilities to their weapon using divine bond. They can add up to +6 worth to their weapon at level 20. However, since a weapon can never have more than a +5 enhancement bonus and never more than a +10 total worth of enhancement bonuses and special abilities, a paladin can never stat her weapon above +10.
I look at this from one perspective: sure, most paladins at 20th level will likely have a weapon higher than +4, but what the ability does is give the paladin the flexibility to, for a limited time, make her weapon perfectly opposed...
Also, he made it sound like the official stance of Paizo when he said:
To be clear, I didn't weigh in with my "opinion."
I weighed in with both the letter and the intent of the rule. Case closed.
Is that really the case?
The thread where the discussion takes place is here. The ruling was made in the middle of page 2 if you care to check it out. For obvious reasons, his "official" ruling isn't very popular.
To be fair Dork that thread was all about pushing the +10 WEBE cap. We didn't really touch down too much on pushing the +5 enhancement bonus cap.
The section you're referring to says items can have an enhancement bonus from +1 to +5. Bane says that the enhancement bonus of the item is treated as +2 better then the actual bonus, essentially overriding the normal +5 cap. +2 better then +5 is +7. So long as you don't go over the +10 WEBE cap which Bane does not say you can do.
And even if ya don't get the extra +2 you still gain the 2d6 extra damage.
And even if ya don't get the extra +2 you still gain the 2d6 extra damage.
the problem with this ruling IMO, is that part of Banes value comes from the extra enhancement bonus... so if you rule that a +5 weapon can't benefit from that part you have suddenly made it so that bane isn't as valuable when added to a +5 weapon as it is when added to a +3 weapon, but it still has the same "extra plus" cost.
The 2d6 is always nice. And the +2 may count on a +5 weapon that does not exceed +10 total. But even if it does not the 2d6 is as I said always nice
My own ruling was to allow the increase to +7. Since a +5 bane weapon was +7 against a specific creature type, I also treated it as "epic" for overcoming DR/epic against that creature type. It allowed me to throw some epic encounters at the players in my Planescape game (before the game went epic itself) without fear of overkill.
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Doesn't that go against the ruling some of you game designers JUST made where it was said that under no circumstances could an armor/weapon's enhancement bonus go over +5 (or +10 when abilities are taken into account)?
This doesn't strike me as contradictory. A weapon can have a maximum permanent enhancement bonus of +5. It can then have an additional +5 worth of special weapon abilities. Bane is a special ability that happens to grant the weapon an additional +2 circumstantial enhancement bonus that stacks with its permanent enhancement bonus.
-Skeld
Doesn't that go against the ruling some of you game designers JUST made where it was said that under no circumstances could an armor/weapon's enhancement bonus go over +5 (or +10 when abilities are taken into account)?This doesn't strike me as contradictory. A weapon can have a maximum permanent enhancement bonus of +5. It can then have an additional +5 worth of special weapon abilities. Bane is a special ability that happens to grant the weapon an additional +2 circumstantial enhancement bonus that stacks with its permanent enhancement bonus.
-Skeld
Actually, it is. I have a +5 thundering, dragon-bane longsword of speed. That is a +10 weapon, but against a dragon it acts like a +7 thundering, dragon-bane longsword of speed which is a +12 weapon.
But that is entirely besides the point of my question.
So, a bane weapon can go above +5, what about an oathbow? Does the +3 oath bonus on an oath bow act like a bane bonus? IE If I take an oathbow, and enchant it up to a +5 oathbow, then I declare an oath do I get a +8 enhancement bonus against that target?
In that case you chose to overwrite the extra +2 and only get the extra 2d6 damage
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Actually, it is. I have a +5 thundering, dragon-bane longsword of speed. That is a +10 weapon, but against a dragon it acts like a +7 thundering, dragon-bane longsword of speed which is a +12 weapon.
I guess it's a matter of accounting. I see that weapon as:
+5 enhancement = +5
thundering = +1
dragon bane = +1
speed = +3
Which is a total of +10. The +2 enhancement bonus against dragons is accounted for in the +1 cost of bane itself.
I can understand how you could think that it's a +12 weapon against dragons, but that requires that you've counted bane twice (once as bane the +1 special quality, the the second time as a separate +2 enhancement bonus).
No matter how you count it, the weapon is still effectively a +9 weapon against everything else in the universe other than dragons. That's just how bane works: great against one thing, worthless against everything else.
Personally, I probably would've costed bane at +2, but that's just me.
-Skeld
Actually, it is. I have a +5 thundering, dragon-bane longsword of speed. That is a +10 weapon, but against a dragon it acts like a +7 thundering, dragon-bane longsword of speed which is a +12 weapon.I guess it's a matter of accounting. I see that weapon as:
+5 enhancement = +5
thundering = +1
dragon bane = +1
speed = +3Which is a total of +10. The +2 enhancement bonus against dragons is accounted for in the +1 cost of bane itself.
I can understand how you could think that it's a +12 weapon against dragons, but that requires that you've counted bane twice (once as bane the +1 special quality, the the second time as a separate +2 enhancement bonus).
No matter how you count it, the weapon is still effectively a +9 weapon against everything else in the universe other than dragons. That's just how bane works: great against one thing, worthless against everything else.
Personally, I probably would've costed bane at +2, but that's just me.
-Skeld
Even removing the double accounting, the weapon is +11 total against dragons, and +9 against everything else.
The +2 bonus the bane gives, is already counted to the base value of +1. So you could have that +5 dragon bane speed thundering sword, because it's total value would be +10.
It doesn't matter what bonuses the ability gives, because it's already part of the price tag. GM's ruling it otherwise are just plain wrong.
For an example, we could make up our own ability called the "slaying" and it's price would be +3. The ability would grant you +5 against targets that are huge or bigger. So you could have +4 slaying speed sword.
Btw, this has been discussed before, so use the search option before posting. Thank you.
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Even removing the double accounting, the weapon is +11 total against dragons, and +9 against everything else.
Hmm, I hate to tell someone they're wrong about their game, but I still don't think you're adding up the bonuses correctly. Bane costs +1. It always costs +1, even against dragons. Part of the benefit is that against dragons, it behaves as if it is a +2 enhancement bonus.
So against a dragon, it may behave as if it were a +11 weapon, but it's still a +10 weapon.
-Skeld
It would gain a +7 enhancement bonus against its bane target.
Can you guys Read the man has spoken its +7 because James Said So LOL
Another question on this topic - Is extraplanar a valid subtype for bane? Assuming it is, does it change what it affects if it's on a different plane?
Even removing the double accounting, the weapon is +11 total against dragons, and +9 against everything else.Hmm, I hate to tell someone they're wrong about their game, but I still don't think you're adding up the bonuses correctly. Bane costs +1. It always costs +1, even against dragons. Part of the benefit is that against dragons, it behaves as if it is a +2 enhancement bonus.
So against a dragon, it may behave as if it were a +11 weapon, but it's still a +10 weapon.
-Skeld
I am using the narrowest interpretation of the rules, not necessarily the correct interpretation.
Random question. If i have a +3 bow, and I fire a +1 dragon bane arrow, is the attack a +3 or a +5?
The arrow would be +3 bane by my guess. The +1 arrow becomes +3, the bow is +3, so it's +3. But you add the extra bane damage. But I admit I could be wrong here.
Even removing the double accounting, the weapon is +11 total against dragons, and +9 against everything else.Hmm, I hate to tell someone they're wrong about their game, but I still don't think you're adding up the bonuses correctly. Bane costs +1. It always costs +1, even against dragons. Part of the benefit is that against dragons, it behaves as if it is a +2 enhancement bonus.
So against a dragon, it may behave as if it were a +11 weapon, but it's still a +10 weapon.
-Skeld
I am using the narrowest interpretation of the rules, not necessarily the correct interpretation.
Random question. If i have a +3 bow, and I fire a +1 dragon bane arrow, is the attack a +3 or a +5?
It would be +3. The bow is always +3 regardless of foe. The dragon bane arrow is +3 vs. dragons only and +1 against every other type of foe. Therefore, when applying the "Only the higher of the two enhancement bonuses applies" rule (as bow and arrow enhancements don't stack), you get +3.
It would be +3. The bow is always +3 regardless of foe. The dragon bane arrow is +3 vs. dragons only and +1 against every other type of foe. Therefore, when applying the "Only the higher of the two enhancement bonuses applies" rule (as bow and arrow enhancements don't stack), you get +3.Even removing the double accounting, the weapon is +11 total against dragons, and +9 against everything else.Hmm, I hate to tell someone they're wrong about their game, but I still don't think you're adding up the bonuses correctly. Bane costs +1. It always costs +1, even against dragons. Part of the benefit is that against dragons, it behaves as if it is a +2 enhancement bonus.
So against a dragon, it may behave as if it were a +11 weapon, but it's still a +10 weapon.
-Skeld
I am using the narrowest interpretation of the rules, not necessarily the correct interpretation.
Random question. If i have a +3 bow, and I fire a +1 dragon bane arrow, is the attack a +3 or a +5?
Maybe enhancement bonuses do not stack, but special properties do. If you fire a +1 flaming arrow from a +3 bow, you get a +3 flaming arrow. The same is true if you fire a +3 arrow from a +1 flaming bow.
So if you fire a +1 dragon bane arrow from a +3 bow do you get a +3 dragon bane arrow(which becomes a +5 when it actually hits the dragon) or is the arrow already considered a +3 arrow against the dragon(which it has not reached yet), and thus the bow adds nothing to the arrow.
Maybe enhancement bonuses do not stack, but special properties do. If you fire a +1 flaming arrow from a +3 bow, you get a +3 flaming arrow. The same is true if you fire a +3 arrow from a +1 flaming bow.So if you fire a +1 dragon bane arrow from a +3 bow do you get a +3 dragon bane arrow(which becomes a +5 when it actually hits the dragon) or is the arrow already considered a +3 arrow against the dragon(which it has not reached yet), and thus the bow adds nothing to the arrow.
I'm not convinced this is the case, but it is an interesting point. When you fire a +1 flaming arrow from a +3 bow, you get a +1 flaming arrow fired from a +3 bow. Since you use the higher of the two enhancement bonuses to determine hit and damage, the +3 applies. The +1 flaming arrow doesn't suddenly become +3.
Special properties only stack if they are of different sources. Take a +1 flaming arrow fired from a +3 flaming bow for instance.
Going back to the bane property, the bane "weapon's enhancement bonus is +2 better than its actual bonus." The "weapon" with the bane property is the arrow itself, not the bow in the examples above. Hence, whenever you point that arrow at the dragon, that arrow is now considered +3 instead of +1. Then this is compared to the enhancement bonus of any bow this arrow is fired from to determine the higher of the two bonuses. The arrow itself can't just "steal" the bow's enhancement.
Maybe enhancement bonuses do not stack, but special properties do. If you fire a +1 flaming arrow from a +3 bow, you get a +3 flaming arrow. The same is true if you fire a +3 arrow from a +1 flaming bow.So if you fire a +1 dragon bane arrow from a +3 bow do you get a +3 dragon bane arrow(which becomes a +5 when it actually hits the dragon) or is the arrow already considered a +3 arrow against the dragon(which it has not reached yet), and thus the bow adds nothing to the arrow.
I'm not convinced this is the case, but it is an interesting point. When you fire a +1 flaming arrow from a +3 bow, you get a +1 flaming arrow fired from a +3 bow. Since you use the higher of the two enhancement bonuses to determine hit and damage, the +3 applies. The +1 flaming arrow doesn't suddenly become +3.
Special properties only stack if they are of different sources. Take a +1 flaming arrow fired from a +3 flaming bow for instance.
Going back to the bane property, the bane "weapon's enhancement bonus is +2 better than its actual bonus." The "weapon" with the bane property is the arrow itself, not the bow in the examples above. Hence, whenever you point that arrow at the dragon, that arrow is now considered +3 instead of +1. Then this is compared to the enhancement bonus of any bow this arrow is fired from to determine the higher of the two bonuses. The arrow itself can't just "steal" the bow's enhancement.
Does the bonus apply when you point it at a dragon or when you hit the dragon?
If I fire a +1 bane arrow at a dragon, and accidently hit a party member in the back because I am a piss poor shot, do I do +3 damage because I was aiming at the dragon?
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By applying the basic magic item rules, the +3 of the bow overrules the +1 of the arrow, making it a +3 bane arrow. If a bane arrow is attempting to strike a bane target its enhancement bonus goes up by 2 making this one a +5. The arrow is the weapon here, not the bow, but you have to figure out what the weapon is before calculating how it affects its target.
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If I fire a +1 bane arrow at a dragon, and accidently hit a party member in the back because I am a piss poor shot, do I do +3 damage because I was aiming at the dragon?
If this were to come up with my group, I'd probably rule that the bane property activates when the arrow was fired (when the attack roll was made). You might rule differently than me and someone else even different from either of us.
-Skeld
The equivalent bonuses of the weapon are applied to the ammunition fired from it. It doesn't enchant the ammunition into +? ammo, it just gives it the magical property as well as the damage granted by the weapon.
+1 Fiery Burst, Holy, Seeking longbow of Speed = +10 WEBE
/\This bow fires this arrow\/
+5 Dragon Bane, Axiomatic, Shock arrow of Distance = +10 WEBE
The arrow turns into this \/
+5 Dragon Bane, Axiomatic, Shock arrow of Distance that deals 1d6 fire damage, 2d6 holy damage, attains the good alignment type, and negates cover.
It does not make the arrow
+5 Fiery Burst, Holy, Seeking, Dragon Bane, Axiomatic, Shock arrow of Distance and Speed
The equivalent bonuses of the weapon are applied to the ammunition fired from it. It doesn't enchant the ammunition into +? ammo, it just gives it the magical property as well as the damage granted by the weapon.
+1 Fiery Burst, Holy, Seeking longbow of Speed = +10 WEBE
/\This bow fires this arrow\/
+5 Dragon Bane, Axiomatic, Shock arrow of Distance = +10 WEBE
The arrow turns into this \/
+5 Dragon Bane, Axiomatic, Shock arrow of Distance that deals 1d6 fire damage, 2d6 holy damage, attains the good alignment type, and negates cover.It does not make the arrow
+5 Fiery Burst, Holy, Seeking, Dragon Bane, Axiomatic, Shock arrow of Distance and Speed
If you rolled a crit, you would get an extra 2d8 fire damage correct?
I understand the technical distinction you are making, but if you fire a non-magical arrow from a +3 dragon bane bow at a dragon, the arrow becomes magical and gains, a +5 to hit, +5 to damage, and does 2d6 extra damage to dragons. So for all practical purposes does it not act like a +3 dragon bane arrow?
It acts exactly like that, but it does not become a +3 dragon bane arrow.
You can't take a +3 dragon bane bow and fire 50 arrows at a wall, destroying half the arrows, but making the other half of them into +3 dragon bane arrows for future use.
There's actually a line in the old 3.5 handbook under the special weapon properties like flaming that says,
Bows, crossbows, and slings so crafted bestow the fire energy upon their ammunition.
That's gone now... kinda peculiar. I'm sure it still applies and was just taken out to save on word count. It would be stupid if a +1 flaming longbow only let you sheathe the bow in flames for the purpose of bludgeoning people with it.
Does the bonus apply when you point it at a dragon or when you hit the dragon?If I fire a +1 bane arrow at a dragon, and accidently hit a party member in the back because I am a piss poor shot, do I do +3 damage because I was aiming at the dragon?
I don't think under normal circumstances, that you can accidentally hit other creatures anymore upon a miss.
Well, let's put the property into a simpler example. You're fighting an orc mounted on a wyvern. You wield a +1 dragonbane greataxe and possess the Cleave feat. You decide to use the cleave feat to attack both mount and rider. What happens? How do you apply the weapon's bonuses? Well, when you "point" it at the orc, it's +1 to hit & dmg, and when you "point" it at the wyvern, it's +3 to hit & dmg.
The same thing happens with a bane arrow, whether the arrow is wielded as a melee weapon, thrown, or used normally by being fired from a bow. In the case of an arrow being fired from a bow, you figure the bane property separately from the bow, then adjudicate all modifiers according to the rules. I can't see anywhere that since the bane arrow is fired from a bow with a higher enhancement bonus, the bane property for that arrow somehow works off that bonus instead of its own.
Creative Director
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It would gain a +7 enhancement bonus against its bane target.Doesn't that go against the ruling some of you game designers JUST made where it was said that under no circumstances could an armor/weapon's enhancement bonus go over +5 (or +10 when abilities are taken into account)?
As folks have surmised, it does not go against the ruling. The bane weapon quality counts as a +1 quality, and THAT'S what matters for the total +10 limit on magic weapons.
A +5 dragon bane dancing greatsword is a legal weapon. Against a dragon, it would function as a +7 dragon bane dancing greatsword, but that doesn't increase its price at all (or put it over the limit of +10 weapon enhancements).
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I don't mean to be antagonistic on this bow/arrow issue, but let me pose this question: Should a +1 dragonbane bow firing a +3 arrow be any different than a +3 bow firing a +1 dragonbane arrow? Because I don't think it should be.
Sure, if you read it very strictly you would calculate the two separately, EXCEPT for the following:
Bows, crossbows, and slings crafted with this ability bestow this power upon their ammunition.
Which means that a dragonbane bow makes the arrow dragonbane, so you are now shooting a +3 dragonbane arrow. This makes it a +5 arrow against a dragon.
Does *anyone* really think it's okay for the reverse not to be okay?Regardless of how this turns out, I will rule that you "add" the bow and arrow together (other than base enhancement bonus) then do all circumstantial calculations.
EDIT: Here's an interesting note: You can take advantage of large quantity of modifiers, by making the bow a +5 speed distance bow, as those properties work without transfering them to the arrow. Then buy a +1 arrow with flaming burst, holy, axiomatic and two banes and fire it. You are now utilizing +17 equivalent. (5 enhancement, 3 speed, 1 distance, 8 in equivalents on the arrow).
I don't mean to be antagonistic on this bow/arrow issue, but let me pose this question: Should a +1 dragonbane bow firing a +3 arrow be any different than a +3 bow firing a +1 dragonbane arrow? Because I don't think it should be.
Sure, if you read it very strictly you would calculate the two separately, EXCEPT for the following:
Bows, crossbows, and slings crafted with this ability bestow this power upon their ammunition.Which means that a dragonbane bow makes the arrow dragonbane, so you are now shooting a +3 dragonbane arrow. This makes it a +5 arrow against a dragon.
Does *anyone* really think it's okay for the reverse not to be okay?Regardless of how this turns out, I will rule that you "add" the bow and arrow together (other than base enhancement bonus) then do all circumstantial calculations.
I don't think you're coming off as antagonistic at all, StabbityDoom.
Now to debate your point, yes it is ok to me. You give up versatility by putting the bane property on the bow instead of the arrow (which is cheaper and thus allowing you take multiple bane arrows effective against a multiple number of types). Keep in mind that there are three of ways to circumvent the +3 bow, +1 dragonbane arrow "problem": put the bane property on the bow instead (as you mentioned), cast Greater Magic Weapon on the arrow, or simply enhance the arrows to a higher bonus.
As to the quote you cite from the rulebook, look at it this way: with the bane property on the arrow, if you have bow +1/arrow +3, bane is +3, right? But if you have bow +3/ arrow +1, now all of a sudden bane is +5? That doesn't make sense. Also, a bow +1 confers its bonus onto the +3 bane arrow. But since they don't stack you take the arrow's bonus, as it is higher. The same is true of the reverse. The +3 bow confers its bonus onto the +1 bane arrow. Since they don't stack you take the bow's bonus as it is higher. But when the bane arrow is used against an opponent of the appropriate type, now the arrow is considered +3. The bow still confers its bonus onto the +3 bane arrow. Since they are both equal, you take either bonus.
Aside from debating how it is meant to be according to the RAW, I think any individual GM ruling it either way is fine.
A +5 dragon bane dancing greatsword is a legal weapon. Against a dragon, it would function as a +7 dragon bane dancing greatsword, but that doesn't increase its price at all (or put it over the limit of +10 weapon enhancements).
So then only the actual enhancement bonuses (what you pay for) are restricted by the +10 limit rather than the effective enhancement bonuses (such as bane's situational increase)?
In other words, the +10 weapon enhancement limit only really applies to the magic weapon enhancements shown in the magic items chapter?
Your example has an effective enhancement (bonuses and abilities) of +11 and an actual enhancement of +10. Am I to take that to mean that a +4 dancing flaming burst greatsword could benefit from a high caster level greater magic weapon spell (making it a +5 dancing flaming burst greatsword temporarily) since that is an effective enhancement bonus rather than an actual one?
sigh no, No it does not. It still uses the +10 limit
lets brake the weapon down
+5=+5
Dancing=+4
Bane=+1
Total=+10
As others have pointed out the bane is +1 not +2, nor does it count as a +2 when in use as that is part of the price of +1 enhancement. There is no +11 you can not go past +10 by any means currently printed. You can not get more then +10 no matter what ya pile on it
Your +4 dancing flaming burst greatsword is maxed out at +10 nothing will add to it.
+4= +4
dancing=+4
Flaming burst=+2
total =+10
Your simply maxed out.
It uses the same rules as everything else. Temp or permanent they use the same hard +10 rule. Greater magic weapon added to a +10 weapon is a wasted spell.
Ravingdork, if it helps think of Bane as having specific wording that allows it to extend from +5 to +7 based on what you're attacking. The ability itself is telling you it can break the existing rule. Whereas GMW/Divine Bond does not.
Ravingdork, if it helps think of Bane as having specific wording that allows it to extend from +5 to +7 based on what you're attacking. The ability itself is telling you it can break the existing rule. Whereas GMW/Divine Bond does not.
Still back to why I originally started this thread. I have an oath bow, I get it enchanted to a +5 oathbow. I declare an oath against someone and shoot them. Is my shot +5 or +8? IE does the +3 enhancement from the oathbow work like the bane bonus?
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sigh no, No it does not. It still uses the +10 limit
lets brake the weapon down
+5=+5
Dancing=+4
Bane=+1Total=+10
As others have pointed out the bane is +1 not +2, nor does it count as a +2 when in use as that is part of the price of +1 enhancement. There is no +11 you can not go past +10 by any means currently printed. You can not get more then +10 no matter what ya pile on it
Your +4 dancing flaming burst greatsword is maxed out at +10 nothing will add to it.
+4= +4
dancing=+4
Flaming burst=+2total =+10
Your simply maxed out.
It uses the same rules as everything else. Temp or permanent they use the same hard +10 rule.
You may not be able to go past +10 (as you read it, not as I read it) but by RAW you can definitely got up to +17 effectively.
You can take advantage of large quantity of modifiers, by making the bow a +5 speed distance bow, as those properties work without transfering them to the arrow. Then buy a +1 arrow with flaming burst, holy, axiomatic, bane and merciful and fire it. You are now utilizing +17 equivalent. (5 enhancement, 3 speed, 1 distance, 8 in equivalents on the arrow).
The highlighted part is edited as I realized you could not have two banes on one weapon. I swapped the second one for merciful.
This is definitely a "trick" as neither weapon has more than +10, but the overall effect is +17. If you discount the unrestricted transfer of raw enhancement bonus from bow to arrow (forcing the arrow to +2, +8 equivalents) then you must still acknowledge that it ends up as a +14 effectively (+2 arrow, +8 equivalents, you still get the advantage of speed and distance for another 4).I offer one challenge, however, to back-up your position: Where does it tell you how to determine what abilities do and do not stick? If you use an arrow that has 2 points of enhancement open, but there are 4 equivalent worth of abilities that could fit from the bow to the arrow that are supposed to be transfered, what transfers? What stays?
If you allow the stacking (which isn't explicitly banned by RAW by many players' and WotC's interpretations of this rule) then it's simple and clear by RAW to figure out how to deal with the problem.
Personally, I go with simple and not-broken (IMO) over complicated and not-broken when both are equally valid options.
<class time>
sigh no, No it does not. It still uses the +10 limit
lets brake the weapon down
+5=+5
Dancing=+4
Bane=+1Total=+10
As others have pointed out the bane is +1 not +2, nor does it count as a +2 when in use as that is part of the price of +1 enhancement. There is no +11 you can not go past +10 by any means currently printed. You can not get more then +10 no matter what ya pile on it
Your +4 dancing flaming burst greatsword is maxed out at +10 nothing will add to it.
+4= +4
dancing=+4
Flaming burst=+2total =+10
Your simply maxed out.
It uses the same rules as everything else. Temp or permanent they use the same hard +10 rule.
You may not be able to go past +10 (as you read it, not as I read it) but by RAW you can definitely got up to +17 effectively.
You can take advantage of large quantity of modifiers, by making the bow a +5 speed distance bow, as those properties work without transfering them to the arrow. Then buy a +1 arrow with flaming burst, holy, axiomatic, bane and merciful and fire it. You are now utilizing +17 equivalent. (5 enhancement, 3 speed, 1 distance, 8 in equivalents on the arrow).The highlighted part is edited as I realized you could not have two banes on one weapon. I swapped the second one for merciful.
This is definitely a "trick" as neither weapon has more than +10, but the overall effect is +17. If you discount the unrestricted transfer of raw enhancement bonus from bow to arrow (forcing the arrow to +2, +8 equivalents) then you must still acknowledge that it ends up as a +14 effectively (+2 arrow, +8 equivalents, you still get the advantage of speed and distance for another 4).I offer one challenge, however, to back-up your position: Where does it tell you how to determine what abilities do and do not stick? If you use an arrow that has 2 points of enhancement open, but there are 4 equivalent worth of abilities that could fit from the bow to the arrow that are supposed to be...
Actually, that raises another question. Are Bane(Dragon) and Bane(Orc) considered the same enchantment or not?
Ravingdork, if it helps think of Bane as having specific wording that allows it to extend from +5 to +7 based on what you're attacking. The ability itself is telling you it can break the existing rule. Whereas GMW/Divine Bond does not.Still back to why I originally started this thread. I have an oath bow, I get it enchanted to a +5 oathbow. I declare an oath against someone and shoot them. Is my shot +5 or +8? IE does the +3 enhancement from the oathbow work like the bane bonus?
Actually...it does nothing as it's already a +5 bow. The ability doesn't say it increased the bonus, just that it's now treated as having a +5 bonus.
Against such a sworn enemy, the bow has a +5 enhancement bonus, and arrows launched from it deal an additional 2d6 points of damage (and ×4 on a critical hit instead of the normal ×3).
Now if it was a +1 flaming oathbow of speed and you declared your oath. According to the ability the bow will be counted as being +5 against that enemy. Similar to bane it is specifically saying this is the case.
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Creative Director
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A +5 dragon bane dancing greatsword is a legal weapon. Against a dragon, it would function as a +7 dragon bane dancing greatsword, but that doesn't increase its price at all (or put it over the limit of +10 weapon enhancements).So then only the actual enhancement bonuses (what you pay for) are restricted by the +10 limit rather than the effective enhancement bonuses (such as bane's situational increase)?
In other words, the +10 weapon enhancement limit only really applies to the magic weapon enhancements shown in the magic items chapter?
Your example has an effective enhancement (bonuses and abilities) of +11 and an actual enhancement of +10. Am I to take that to mean that a +4 dancing flaming burst greatsword could benefit from a high caster level greater magic weapon spell (making it a +5 dancing flaming burst greatsword temporarily) since that is an effective enhancement bonus rather than an actual one?
The +10 weapon enhancement limit only applies to the magic weapon enhancements shown in the magic items chapter, yes.
My example of a +5 dragon bane (+1) dancing (+4) greatsword adds up to a +10 weapon, as far as I can tell.
? Where does it say you can't put more than one type of bane on a weapon?
btw, Thanks James for answering. I can see why you would be reluctant to do so. I see people practically thumping fists on tables(particularly in the 2 wall of thorns threads) demanding official answers, then they continue to debate and argue even after you do.
? Where does it say you can't put more than one type of bane on a weapon?
btw, Thanks James for answering. I can see why you would be reluctant to do so. I see people practically thumping fists on tables(particularly in the 2 wall of thorns threads) demanding official answers, then they continue to debate and argue even after you do.
Under special properties
Some magic weapons have special abilities. Special abilities count as additional bonuses for determining the market value of the item, but do not modify attack or damage bonuses (except where specifically noted). A single weapon cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents) higher than +10. A weapon with a special ability must also have at least a +1 enhancement bonus. Weapons cannot possess the same special ability more than once.
So my question is do bane's against different creatures count as the same ability or not?
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Creative Director
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Actually, that raises another question. Are Bane(Dragon) and Bane(Orc) considered the same enchantment or not?
EDIT: Missed that rule. Yeah; you can't have multiple enhancements of the same type on a weapon. For bane weapons, I suppose TECHNICALLY a dragon bane enhancement is different enough from a fey bane enhancement so that might work... but the RAW says no.