Converting Return to the Tomb of Horrors


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Has anyone done this for either 3.5 or Pathfinder?
I've seen the new Winter Wight and Demi-Lich. Also the new upgraded Dim Triad and leader of the Dark Acadamy.
Has anyone got ideas on the "traps"?
Most of the critters are easy to sort but some of the mechanics of traps/puzzles are a bit odd.
I plan to run it after the AoW marathon so I've plenty of time.
Cheers in advance.

Liberty's Edge

The traps are fine, for the most part.

There's two factors here.

1) the place is meant to challenge players, not characters. Many of the traps / bad setups have no "dice roll" that will determine success or failure, but instead require the player to attempt something unorthodox.

For instance, there's no check to know what happens if you stick something inside the Green Devil's Face, not until you try it. Then you have something to analyze, and will probably opt for the "second option" presented. Which, of course, is what the adventure wants you to do. I'd say more, but that would qualify as a spoiler. There are three entrances, after all, and all of them lead to naught but bad ends.

This brings me to my second point, which is

2) This place is designed to kill characters. It is a deathtrap, and a very famous one. It is not a place where your carefully crafted campaign characters go - you run this with a bunch of one-shot optimized characters, multiple backups prepared, and no expectations of survival.

In short, it's not supposed to be fair. Don't sweat the details. Try it with some "volunteers" and if the numbers work out okay, leave them alone.


BobChuck wrote:

The traps are fine, for the most part.

There's two factors here.

1) the place is meant to challenge players, not characters. Many of the traps / bad setups have no "dice roll" that will determine success or failure, but instead require the player to attempt something unorthodox.

For instance, there's no check to know what happens if you stick something inside the Green Devil's Face, not until you try it. Then you have something to analyze, and will probably opt for the "second option" presented. Which, of course, is what the adventure wants you to do. I'd say more, but that would qualify as a spoiler. There are three entrances, after all, and all of them lead to naught but bad ends.

This brings me to my second point, which is

2) This place is designed to kill characters. It is a deathtrap, and a very famous one. It is not a place where your carefully crafted campaign characters go - you run this with a bunch of one-shot optimized characters, multiple backups prepared, and no expectations of survival.

In short, it's not supposed to be fair. Don't sweat the details. Try it with some "volunteers" and if the numbers work out okay, leave them alone.

My players have all done the original 1ed Tomb of Horrors and I got the Return To... when it came out and just sat on my shelf. Most of the "traps" are fairly easy to fudge but stuff like the Vestige...

The players all know its going to be a death trap. But it still hasn't stopped them from badgering me.


I don't know how different Return was from the original, but some of the work may have already been done for you. WotC's site has a (free) PDF here of a 3.5 update of the original Tomb of Horrors.

It should be pointed out though, since the Demi-Lich is an epic monster in 3.5, the final encounter is with a type of construct which simply resembles a Demi-Lich.

I hope that this helps!


Bellona wrote:

I don't know how different Return was from the original, but some of the work may have already been done for you. WotC's site has a (free) PDF here of a 3.5 update of the original Tomb of Horrors.

It should be pointed out though, since the Demi-Lich is an epic monster in 3.5, the final encounter is with a type of construct which simply resembles a Demi-Lich.

I hope that this helps!

Return assumes that the players have done the original. In my group's case when it came out 30 years ago (I just suddenly feel old). The demi-lich is drawing very powerful adventurers to its lair on the Negative Energy Plane to draw their souls so he can become part of the plane and in essence become all undead. And he only needs three more souls to complete his goal.

Its a very, very dangerous scenario with no room for error. TPK is probable throughout however this is tempered by the fact it is possible to get through fairly intact.
Although very dangerous the premise is that the Demi-Lich wants people to succeed, all the "traps" are there just to weed out the unworthy.

Shadow Lodge

Return doesn't really change the Tomb itself, but it creates an epic adventure around the Tomb. You will go through a decent amount of adventuring BEFORE you get to the Tomb, and then the Tomb itself is merely the gateway to a pocket dimension on the border of the Negative Energy Plane where you go through more trials before the ultimate showdown with Acererak.

Also, you should be aware that WotC did a 3.5 conversion of the Tomb of Horrors...it's still on their website with a bit of searching.

Liberty's Edge

It's linked above.

I honestly didn't realize he was talking about the second edition "return" book, I thought he was referring to the 3.5 update of the original from the start.

My fault. I bet my advice was less useful than I thought.


BobChuck wrote:

It's linked above.

I honestly didn't realize he was talking about the second edition "return" book, I thought he was referring to the 3.5 update of the original from the start.

My fault. I bet my advice was less useful than I thought.

LOL

Nevermind, thanks for the imput anyway.
I plan to run it after AoW campaign. Everyone knows the danger of the original. I've played in it and DMed it for my present group.
My PC, Jupiter the Mage, was the only survivor because my mum wouldn't let me go out that night. Everyone else slid into lava.
I have just re-read the original and it is possible to go through the original just fighting off one ochre jelly. See, Gygax was a kindly soul!

Shadow Lodge

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If I were going to convert it to PFRPG (which I do plan to get around to one of these days...and the whole Return to the Tomb of Horrors as well.) I would restore the lethality of it as compared to the 3.5 WotC version. I know that 3.X tried to eliminated the unfairness of "save or die" situations, but this is the Tomb of Horrors. My conversion will have higher DCs, and tons of "save or die". Hell, most of the poisons will inflict pretty substantial hit point / ability damage even with a save...it might end up being "save AND die" for some characters.


Kthulhu wrote:
If I were going to convert it to PFRPG (which I do plan to get around to one of these days...and the whole Return to the Tomb of Horrors as well.) I would restore the lethality of it as compared to the 3.5 WotC version. I know that 3.X tried to eliminated the unfairness of "save or die" situations, but this is the Tomb of Horrors. My conversion will have higher DCs, and tons of "save or die". Hell, most of the poisons will inflict pretty substantial hit point / ability damage even with a save...it might end up being "save AND die" for some characters.

There are some horrible "unfair" bits but to be fair to Gygax I struggle to find one which can't be avoided by extremly careful play. The real corridor has pit traps with "they're poisoned save or die. Three spikes hit you so thats three saves please" but they are completely avoidable. There is a lot of that. I am going to ramp up the 3.5 version to normal Gygaxian levels. High DCs and save or die.

Much of the problem with the scenario is players treating it as a "normal" adventure and think they can just go blundering about.
Perhaps we can share ideas?

Shadow Lodge

Spacelard wrote:
Perhaps we can share ideas?

Cool by me. I'd also refer you to this thread, which discusses the upcoming 4th Edition version.

I plan to actually start the conversion process tonight. Hell, it's not exactly a very lengthy module; I might even finish most of the work this weekend. Then I'll share what I have with you.

Just so you know, I'll be using the following sources:

S1 - Tomb of Horrors
Return to the Tomb of Horrors
Tomb of Horrors 3.5 Update

And once it becomes available, I'll probably incorporate revisions based on Tomb of Horrors: A 4th Edition D&D Super Adventure.

I may also take some inspiration from some of the various modules that were themselves inspired by the Tomb of Horror...although not really much; I want it to be more of a straightforward conversion. But I might consider importing small bits from them, or at least mining them for concepts:

HackMaster S1: Tomb of Unspeakable Horrors
GameMastery Module D2: Seven Swords of Sin
Dungeon Crawl Classics #13: Crypt of the Devil Lich

I'm also considering changing up the locations and back-story to fit the Tomb into Golarion. I think throwing it down somewhere in the Mwangi Expanse. And instead of an apprentice and later lieutenant for Vecna, Acererak would have been associated with the Whispering Tyrant.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 16

I saw this thread and downloaded the Tomb of Horrors in the link above and got really excited. I am running a RotRL campaign and while we are still in Burnt Offerings I have been working on some side treks:

Spoiler:

I want to have the campaign move on after the PC's defeat Karzoug and I am working some side adventures around the the party aquiring Zutha's Gluttonous Tomb from the Magic of Thasison PDF. This could be a great place to stick one part of it. Acererak could have been one of the Runelords top agents.

I am eager to see what you guys come up with.


Kthulhu wrote:
Spacelard wrote:
Perhaps we can share ideas?

Cool by me. I'd also refer you to this thread, which discusses the upcoming 4th Edition version.

I plan to actually start the conversion process tonight. Hell, it's not exactly a very lengthy module; I might even finish most of the work this weekend. Then I'll share what I have with you.

Just so you know, I'll be using the following sources:

S1 - Tomb of Horrors
Return to the Tomb of Horrors
Tomb of Horrors 3.5 Update

And once it becomes available, I'll probably incorporate revisions based on Tomb of Horrors: A 4th Edition D&D Super Adventure.

I may also take some inspiration from some of the various modules that were themselves inspired by the Tomb of Horror...although not really much; I want it to be more of a straightforward conversion. But I might consider importing small bits from them, or at least mining them for concepts:

HackMaster S1: Tomb of Unspeakable Horrors
GameMastery Module D2: Seven Swords of Sin
Dungeon Crawl Classics #13: Crypt of the Devil Lich

I'm also considering changing up the locations and back-story to fit the Tomb into Golarion. I think throwing it down somewhere in the Mwangi Expanse. And instead of an apprentice and later lieutenant for Vecna, Acererak would have been associated with the Whispering Tyrant.

Same resouces as me. I have found a few odds and sods out there (Moilian Heart, Winter-Wight) and few of the Accadamy members stated up.

Just trying to get my head around Bone Wierds!


Spacelard wrote:

<other stuff>

My players have all done the original 1ed Tomb of Horrors and I got the Return To... when it came out and just sat on my shelf. Most of the "traps" are fairly easy to fudge but stuff like the Vestige...

<other stuff>

I just noticed your comment on the Vestige. I have no idea if it is of any use, but Acererak the Devourer is one of the vestiges described in 3.5's Tome of Magic (in the section on pact magic). The ToM version is a post-Return Acererak, and has no stats of its own (as is normal for vestiges in the pact magic system).

Also, there is the Black Lore of Moil metamagic feat in Complete Arcane.

Dark Archive

Spacelard wrote:
Kthulhu wrote:
Spacelard wrote:
Perhaps we can share ideas?

Cool by me. I'd also refer you to this thread, which discusses the upcoming 4th Edition version.

I plan to actually start the conversion process tonight. Hell, it's not exactly a very lengthy module; I might even finish most of the work this weekend. Then I'll share what I have with you.

Just so you know, I'll be using the following sources:

S1 - Tomb of Horrors
Return to the Tomb of Horrors
Tomb of Horrors 3.5 Update

And once it becomes available, I'll probably incorporate revisions based on Tomb of Horrors: A 4th Edition D&D Super Adventure.

I may also take some inspiration from some of the various modules that were themselves inspired by the Tomb of Horror...although not really much; I want it to be more of a straightforward conversion. But I might consider importing small bits from them, or at least mining them for concepts:

HackMaster S1: Tomb of Unspeakable Horrors
GameMastery Module D2: Seven Swords of Sin
Dungeon Crawl Classics #13: Crypt of the Devil Lich

I'm also considering changing up the locations and back-story to fit the Tomb into Golarion. I think throwing it down somewhere in the Mwangi Expanse. And instead of an apprentice and later lieutenant for Vecna, Acererak would have been associated with the Whispering Tyrant.

Same resouces as me. I have found a few odds and sods out there (Moilian Heart, Winter-Wight) and few of the Accadamy members stated up.

Just trying to get my head around Bone Wierds!

I converted this a couple years ago and ran my group through it. Alot of the creatures I took from 3.5 "Libris Mortis" and I used a 'toned-down' version of the Winter-wights and demi-lich from the "Epic Handbook".

spoiler:
My players did fairly well in the game, although the wizard went 'ethereal' on Moil and was promptly tore apart by 4 Outsiders and the rogue decided to play the 'roulette' style game and had his soul sucked into Acererak's gem.

All my notes are handwritten for the game so if there is something that is boggling your mind, drop me a line and i can try to help.

Shadow Lodge

MythrilDragon wrote:
I saw this thread and downloaded the Tomb of Horrors in the link above and got really excited. I am running a RotRL campaign and while we are still in Burnt Offerings I have been working on some side treks:

I would highly advise AGAINST running characters in an on-going campaign through the Tomb, or any characters that that players have any real attachment to. The Tomb of Horrors is pretty much designed for TPK.

Unfortunately, I didn't really get very far in my conversion...real life keeps interfering. But when I do get some notable progress, I'll update this thread.


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RETURN is an entirely different beast than original ToH.

I cannot say this too much. While the characters MUST go through the tomb, they can get a party member who has already done so, and there are other people who know all about it's tricks around. The Tomb is maybe one-third of the game.

That being said, it will take time, to get through.

thealexandrian.net, had, in my opinion a rather delicious 3.5 conversion of the tomb - although one I discovered way way too late to be of any use.

Pathfinder's new, higher-CR traps are hugely helpful in rebuilding the Tomb.

ToH is a one-evening meat grinder. Return is a huge campaign, taking possibly years to finish, at a biweekly game pace.

This was actually started around PFRPG Alpha 3 or so, so the rules can be a bit wonky from time to time. There was a bit of a fast level gain, but it seems like City That Sleeps will be reached around APL 16, so I may avoid epics yet.

Converting RETURN to the tomb of horrors

Also, RtToH was, in fact, one of the games one of the developers of 3.0 used to TEST THE RULES. All that work, never shared. *facepalm*

Shadow Lodge

Senevri wrote:
Also, RtToH was, in fact, one of the games one of the developers of 3.0 used to TEST THE RULES. All that work, never shared. *facepalm*

Bastards.

Shadow Lodge

Kthulhu wrote:
Senevri wrote:
Also, RtToH was, in fact, one of the games one of the developers of 3.0 used to TEST THE RULES. All that work, never shared. *facepalm*
Bastards.

Well, I got a bit done this weekend. Hoping for more throughout the week and maybe even finish it off over the weekend. Damn real life keeping me busy...


My computer decided to be an ar$e and I've lost nearly everything!
I've got a lot backed up on various drives/discs but my filing system is erm...rubbish.

Grand Lodge

Wow, brand new to the boards and I already find a thread I can post on. I converted RtToH for 3.5 last year and ran my group through it. We had a blast even though it took a long time and several people died. It's definitely worth going through if you've already done ToH. The way I tied them together was to have a beloved NPC get disintegrated by the demi-lich construct at the end of ToH. When they tried to resurrect her, there was no soul to put back in the body. They had to go after the phylactery to get her soul back. Acererak became an arch-villain without hardly making an appearance!

Some notes off the top of my head:
- The Vestige is a crazy thing to wrap your head around. It's basically the smoke monster from Lost (minus any of the newly revealed stuff about it from this season). You really want to set the mood for this thing anytime it comes by. I found an audio clip of the whisper noise the Lost smoke monster makes and would play it off my laptop anytime it was in the area. The players loved it. Also, this thing should be a beast to fight head on. If you read the flavor text, even Acererak left it going because he didn't want to mess with it. I'll try to scrounge up the stats I had for it and post them.

- There are a LOT of empty rooms in the towers of Moil. That can get really monotonous. Make sure you come up with some random encounters to fill in the gaps. Moil sits on the edge of the Negative Energy Plane, make sure you use that to your advantage. Pockets of negative energy, negative energy creatures,and such will break the monotony of empty room, zombie, empty room, two zombies.

- Read up on the NPCs and use them to their full extent. Isafel the medusa and Lerxst the halfling have both become reoccurring characters in my campaign because they were fun to play.

Ask me any questions you have about the crunchy conversion bits as well and I'll pull out my notes and see if I can help!


Blackmoor wrote:

Wow, brand new to the boards and I already find a thread I can post on. I converted RtToH for 3.5 last year and ran my group through it. We had a blast even though it took a long time and several people died. It's definitely worth going through if you've already done ToH. The way I tied them together was to have a beloved NPC get disintegrated by the demi-lich construct at the end of ToH. When they tried to resurrect her, there was no soul to put back in the body. They had to go after the phylactery to get her soul back. Acererak became an arch-villain without hardly making an appearance!

Some notes off the top of my head:
- The Vestige is a crazy thing to wrap your head around. It's basically the smoke monster from Lost (minus any of the newly revealed stuff about it from this season). You really want to set the mood for this thing anytime it comes by. I found an audio clip of the whisper noise the Lost smoke monster makes and would play it off my laptop anytime it was in the area. The players loved it. Also, this thing should be a beast to fight head on. If you read the flavor text, even Acererak left it going because he didn't want to mess with it. I'll try to scrounge up the stats I had for it and post them.

- There are a LOT of empty rooms in the towers of Moil. That can get really monotonous. Make sure you come up with some random encounters to fill in the gaps. Moil sits on the edge of the Negative Energy Plane, make sure you use that to your advantage. Pockets of negative energy, negative energy creatures,and such will break the monotony of empty room, zombie, empty room, two zombies.

- Read up on the NPCs and use them to their full extent. Isafel the medusa and Lerxst the halfling have both become reoccurring characters in my campaign because they were fun to play.

Ask me any questions you have about the crunchy conversion bits as well and I'll pull out my notes and see if I can help!

Main questions from me would be how you managed the Vestige (yea, its harsh!), Bone Wierd the rest I could just fudge but your conversion notes would be fantastic to grab.


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The Vestige has actually been basically statted for 3.5 _twice_ by WOTC. First of all, there's Caller in Darkness from XPH, and Dream Vestige in Libris Mortis. Most of the stuff from RtToH ended up either in Tome and Blood or Libris Mortis.

Dream Vestige specifically refers to the city that sleeps, even. Either a fully-advanced or Paragon version of that monster would be appropriate.

My current stat block is a CR 19 version of dream vestige. With 4 touch attacks dealing 6d6 damage and 1d4 int damage, it... may be enough even as is, although it's not something Acererak wouldn't mess with at it's current stats. :/


tomb of horrors versus return to tomb of horrors....

To play return w/o the PCs going there the first time
make it a NPC bardic story that tell of the unfortunate fate of the first to enter the tomb of horrors.......

OR
Allow the PCs to hire a guide that was there orginally and any stories the guide might share along the way, but the guide is not going in....
when he leaves he can give them the "I'm only going to deaths door today, I'm not going in."

OR
OR
OR


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Freddy Honeycutt wrote:

tomb of horrors versus return to tomb of horrors....

To play return w/o the PCs going there the first time
make it a NPC bardic story that tell of the unfortunate fate of the first to enter the tomb of horrors.......

OR
Allow the PCs to hire a guide that was there orginally and any stories the guide might share along the way, but the guide is not going in....
when he leaves he can give them the "I'm only going to deaths door today, I'm not going in."

OR
OR
OR

My players have already been through the original meat grinder about 25-30 years ago. I'm going to run Return as written as it assumes the players, at least some, have been down the original.


I'm getting back into DM'ing (and D&D) after a year and a half break, and I'm starting the group up with a modified Return to the Tomb with some premade toons just to get our feet wet. I've spent about an hour trying to see if there's a site (or file I can download) that converts just The City that Waits and the Fortress of Conclusion to 3.5 stats. If anyone can point me in that direction I'll be eternally grateful - thanks! :)

Blessings & Peace,
Hugo


I finally found a site with the info I was looking for:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/conversions/245278-attempt-rebuild-conversion- library-please-upload-conversions-3-5-here.html

and

http://www.enworld.org/forum/conversions/111444-notes-my-return-tomb-horror s-conversion.html

and

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871670/Converting_RETUR N_to_the_tomb_of_horrors.?pg=2

If anyone is still looking for this info (I realized this was an old thread after I posted) there you go :)

Blessings & Peace,
Hugo


hugodlr wrote:

I finally found a site with the info I was looking for:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/conversions/245278-attempt-rebuild-conversion- library-please-upload-conversions-3-5-here.html

and

http://www.enworld.org/forum/conversions/111444-notes-my-return-tomb-horror s-conversion.html

These links are not working for me :-(

Grand Lodge

Remove the spaces within the URLs between "conversion-library", "horrors", and "_RETURN_" when pasting into your browser.


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I've run Return to the Tomb of Horrors on two occasions during the 3.0/3.5 era, and greased roughly 30 player characters between the two trips that both ended in defeat for the groups in question.

The ENworld translation to 3.5 has been previously mentioned, and will reduce some of the legwork involved. Do note however, that Cordell's 3.5 rehash of the Original Tomb of Horrors, is Excellent, both in terms of what he did, and that he designed the Tomb for 9th level characters. In my opinion, that is exactly the correct level for a 3.5/Pathfinder Tomb/Return to the Tomb campaign. If you are planning on making the tomb into a HIGH level adventure for characters levels 13+, you will quickly find that the Player Characters have powers, items, spells, etc. at their disposal that will allow them to circumvent many of the traps with greater ease than the original adventure or the 1998 Return to the Tomb would have wished for them to have. The Return to the Tomb of Horrors (in my opinion) is BEST suited for 3.5/Pathfinder characters levels 8-11 (with Cordell's 3.5 re-do of the Tomb of itself, easily fitting into place at 9th level for the player characters).
The PROBLEM with the ENworld 3.5 update is that the encounters and traps are designed for a WIDE variety of character levels, TOO WIDE as it turns out. Ferranifer is a CR22 Vampire/Wizard 20, while many of the traps and other monsters are a CR 8-12 in difficulty. If your characters are mid-teen to nearly 20th level, Ferranifer and several other opponents will give them a challenge, but little else will. If the characters are levels 8-11, most of the ENworld adventure will be a fair challenge to them, but Ferranifer and the other high level monster/NPCs will wipe them out.
I think it is far easier to scale down several of the Heavy Hitter NPC/Villain Monsters, in order to allow the traps to be a major challenge/obstacle. If you run Return to the Tomb for High level characters (13+), then the monster Villain/NPCs like Ferranifer, Drake, the Vestige & the Demi-Lich and Winter Wights become the only significant challenges the group is likely to face, because once the Rogues reach 10th level, having Skill Focus in Perception and/or Disable Device really starts to let the Rogues outperform most of the traps. And the differnence between a 8th-10th level rogue and a 14th or 15th level rogue is huge.


Hell, even at level 10 the halfling rogue who's going to be heading into the Tomb with my group of players seems likely to outdo the trap DCs readily. Even with only WIS 14.

10 ranks, +3 for a class skill, +5 for the trapfinding rogue feature, +2 for the Kobold's Neighbor trait, +5 with a lens of detection, +3 for skill focus, +2 for stat... hell, that alone with no additional gear grants a +30 on Perception checks against traps, and most of the stuff in the Tomb is lower than Perception DC 30. With the Trap Spotter talent, he'll spot anything he comes with 10' of... so either one has to make the DCs a touch higher, or be particularly sneaky and deceptive in how to lure the PCs in.

(One trick I have in mind is a magical trap just inside the Tomb's true entry door, which both triggers an illusion of a robed skeletal figure cackling with mad laughter further down the corridor and unleashes a spray of arrows at anyone in line with the doors. Hopefully, combined with telling the party to roll for initiative, this makes the PCs yearn for combat and the front-line testosterone junkies will charge forward... to promptly hit the poisoned-spike pits.)

Sovereign Court

Bellona wrote:

I don't know how different Return was from the original, but some of the work may have already been done for you. WotC's site has a (free) PDF here of a 3.5 update of the original Tomb of Horrors.

It should be pointed out though, since the Demi-Lich is an epic monster in 3.5, the final encounter is with a type of construct which simply resembles a Demi-Lich.

I hope that this helps!

Run that PDF. A lot less lethal than the 1e version but lots of fun. Nobody died, two characters got the teleport treatment and they destroyed the demi lich when the dwarf with the scythe criticalled it.

Runs best with players creating 9th level characters and choosing equipment using the gp values suggeted in Core.
Libris Mortis is definitely helpful running the stuff added from that book.

Shadow Lodge

Miranda wrote:
Nobody died...

See, I can't consider it a true Tomb of Horrors if NOBODY died. I'm in the process of doing a ToH conversion to PFRPG (it's a very on-again-off-again process), and to make it feel true to the original, I'm actually having to change some basic assumptions of d20/PFRPG. Such as making poisons that actually kill you, bringing back save or die, etc.


Kthulhu wrote:
Miranda wrote:
Nobody died...
See, I can't consider it a true Tomb of Horrors if NOBODY died. I'm in the process of doing a ToH conversion to PFRPG (it's a very on-again-off-again process), and to make it feel true to the original, I'm actually having to change some basic assumptions of d20/PFRPG. Such as making poisons that actually kill you, bringing back save or die, etc.

I'd be very interested in seeing what you come up with. : )


Kthulhu wrote:
Miranda wrote:
Nobody died...
See, I can't consider it a true Tomb of Horrors if NOBODY died. I'm in the process of doing a ToH conversion to PFRPG (it's a very on-again-off-again process), and to make it feel true to the original, I'm actually having to change some basic assumptions of d20/PFRPG. Such as making poisons that actually kill you, bringing back save or die, etc.

IIRC the dungeon has very few monsters so you can rest when you want. I would have monsters the respawn or ones that patrol the dungeons to get rid of that resting crap, or at least make the players think twice about it. The DC's for the traps are not all that high either. I would definitely up some of them.

Shadow Lodge

Kurukami wrote:
Kthulhu wrote:
Miranda wrote:
Nobody died...
See, I can't consider it a true Tomb of Horrors if NOBODY died. I'm in the process of doing a ToH conversion to PFRPG (it's a very on-again-off-again process), and to make it feel true to the original, I'm actually having to change some basic assumptions of d20/PFRPG. Such as making poisons that actually kill you, bringing back save or die, etc.
I'd be very interested in seeing what you come up with. : )

Most of my notes are on my desktop that is 3000 miles away for the next 5 months. But I can look over both the 3.5 and the original tonight, and let you know what pops into my head.

Sovereign Court

wraithstrike wrote:
Kthulhu wrote:
Miranda wrote:
Nobody died...
See, I can't consider it a true Tomb of Horrors if NOBODY died. I'm in the process of doing a ToH conversion to PFRPG (it's a very on-again-off-again process), and to make it feel true to the original, I'm actually having to change some basic assumptions of d20/PFRPG. Such as making poisons that actually kill you, bringing back save or die, etc.
IIRC the dungeon has very few monsters so you can rest when you want. I would have monsters the respawn or ones that patrol the dungeons to get rid of that resting crap, or at least make the players think twice about it. The DC's for the traps are not all that high either. I would definitely up some of them.

A 9th level Rogue can bypass almost all the traps, however a 20 ft pit trap with spikes is really just an annoyance. My experienced players were in full paranoia mode for the adventure so avoided a number of the nastier traps, plus they made the save or die throws when they needed to. Destroying the skull by critical in the second melee round saved them major grief.

If you are going to alter anything, make the monsters a bit tougher to give the fighters more to do.
S1 will kill parties that are not extremely careful and/or lucky.


Would it be possible to make this conversion more difficult by simply throwing PCs into it at a level or two lower than suggested by the adventure? Maybe 7th or 8th level PCs instead of 9th?


Sub-Creator wrote:
Would it be possible to make this conversion more difficult by simply throwing PCs into it at a level or two lower than suggested by the adventure? Maybe 7th or 8th level PCs instead of 9th?

In my opinion, the success of a group is most heavily dependent on the proficiency of the rogue(s) PCs in the group, be they 7th, 8th, or 9th level. A 7th level Rogue will have a Disable Device check of 7+3 (class skill), plus let's say 4 from an 18-19 DEX and 3 from the feat Skill Focus (for Disable Device, assuming the player is savy enough to select it). That gives a total bonus of a d20+17, which equates to a rogue disabling 90% of all the DC 20 traps encountered. Most of the traps in the Tomb are DC 20 traps. That likely equates to even a 7th level rogue getting by many of the traps. This changes if the rogue(s) DON'T take the skill focus feat for Disable Device, which drops them to a d20+14 (which drops them to a 75% frequency of successfully disabling the traps. That difference is a Significant change in success. If rogue PC(s) are only successfully disabling 3 out of every 4 traps (as in a 75% ratio), then they are going to start dying faster, and when the rogue PCs croak, then the rest of the group won't be far behind. So DON'T suggest that you players take the Skill Focus feat for Disable Device.

The other way to make things tough on a group is to have the poison in pits and other places do DEX damage. If you can lower the DEX scores of any rogue PCs present, then you make it tougher for them to disable future traps, and that will help increase the casualty count:)
Granted, you can always Raise the DC on the Check to disable the traps in the Tomb, but doing this (I would imagine) throws the adventure slightly out of whack, as it was updated by Bruce Cordell with the DC of 20 for Disabling traps in mind. I'd deem it easier, and more legitimate to deny PC rogues the Skill Focus for Disable Device, and then find some way to lower any PC rogue's DEX scores, rather than arbitrarily increasing the DC on the traps themselves.

Dark Archive

OMG, thanks for that ENworld conversion link. This saved me hours.


I look forward to seeing more conversion notes. Return is my absolute favorite adventure.


Rite Publishing wrote:
I look forward to seeing more conversion notes. Return is my absolute favorite adventure.

I agree. From one skull to another...


7th Son wrote:
OMG, thanks for that ENworld conversion link. This saved me hours.

7th son, if you run a group of players through return to the tomb, please consider writing a campaign journal. Those romps are always memorable. I'm sure many would like to hear how your player's characters perished screaming over the course of the adventure. I have a campaign journal (two actually) on Return to the Tomb. See them for ideas. Regards, KGM


link to campaign journal?


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Rite Publishing wrote:
link to campaign journal?

The links are below. The first is to my 2001 & 2002 RttToH campaigns using the 3.0 edition rules. The second is to my 2011-12 RttToH campaign using Pathfinder rules.

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2i29b?Killer-GM-Runs-Return-to-the-Tomb-of-Horr ors
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2mxa9?KILLER-GMs-2011-Return-to-the-Tomb-of-Hor rors


A long time ago, I started an abortive effort to convert RttToH to 3.5. Snorter might still have a copy somewhere.


Woah, old thread is old :D
Tried my hand at a 3.5 RttToH campaign once, as DM. The IRL-group separated for personal reasons, but we ran up to the journey towards the Vast Swamp. I prepped a truckload of "random" encounters (which stretched the campaign WAY longer than it should have), and managed to prep stuff up to and including the entrance to the Black Academy; Leon the guardian was the last character that I prepped. I actually found the .doc file stashed somewhere on my old external HD just now. Heh. Memories...
I also ran the 4E three-parter to about halfway the second part. Those hanging tapistries are killers (don't ask)... Heh. Good times.
If I'd ever redo the RttToH module, I'd do it in PF, and cut out lots of stuff such as the crudload of random encounters, parts of Moil, and likely reduce some of the traps and encounters in both the Tomb and Fortress in number - but not in difficulty - to keep the game flowing.
If anyone still wants it, I could always upload the .doc - but I must say, it's not that much to look at/work with. Just let me know...

EDIT Found a .txt file with basic conversion notes for the entire module plus another .doc with a "campaign diary". Heh. Souvenirs!


Found myself taking a new stab at converting this little masterpiece. Keeping track of expected party level and everything. Fast XP track, start at level 10; currently well into level 16 and did the quick work up to and including moil. All I need to do now is the quick work for the Fortress. I'm guessing level 18 by the end at this rate. Then... Stat out everything and get it peer-approved!
Anyone else still at this?


Finished up the Fortress quick work, and noticed three things:
- party is lvl 17 during bossfight
- bossfight is HAAARRRDDDD (Balor + Demilich + summons vs. party!)
- some of my traps' CRs are off
So I plan to, respectively:
- add/enhance encounters to boost xp to get party to lvl 18 during bossfight
- split up bossfight (Balor + summons vs. party and Demilich + summons vs. party)
- redo my trap math

...this is gonna end up a thread where I just monologue away like some crazy old hermit, isn't it?


Good morning, Paizo forums! Crazy old hermit here, with the ten o' clock news. Making some progress. Managing anywhere from 1 to 3 critters, many of them custom, per day, in customized statblocks. Currently up to and including the Quaking Bog, and begun working on the Bone Portal.

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