Grapple Flowcharts on d20pfsrd.com


Rules Questions


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I created some flowcharts describing the grapple process as I understand it. Can people look over the charts and see if I missed anything or if anything is blatantly incorrect? You can see them here.


jreyst wrote:
I created some flowcharts describing the grapple process as I understand it. Can people look over the charts and see if I missed anything or if anything is blatantly incorrect? You can see them here.

The attacker does not get the +5 to CMB until the defender fails his first attempt to get out of or reverse the grapple.

The defender may also make a full attack action while grappled.<--This was explained on the boards by James or Jason.

IIRC:If you attempt to grapple, but get during the attack of opportunity the grapple DC increases. I can't find this rule, but I thought that was it.

Edit: edited to make more sense

Dark Archive

concerro wrote:
jreyst wrote:
I created some flowcharts describing the grapple process as I understand it. Can people look over the charts and see if I missed anything or if anything is blatantly incorrect? You can see them here.

The attacker does not get the +5 to CMB until the defender fails his first attempt to get out of or reverse the grapple.

The defender may also make a full attack action while grappled.<--This was explained on the boards by James or Jason.

IIRC:If you attempt to grapple, but get during the attack of opportunity the grapple DC increases. I can't find this rule, but I thought I was it once.

It is under Combat Maneuvers:

From the PRD:

Quote:
If you are hit by the target, you take the damage normally and apply that amount as a penalty to the attack roll to perform the maneuver.


Happler wrote:
concerro wrote:
jreyst wrote:
I created some flowcharts describing the grapple process as I understand it. Can people look over the charts and see if I missed anything or if anything is blatantly incorrect? You can see them here.

The attacker does not get the +5 to CMB until the defender fails his first attempt to get out of or reverse the grapple.

The defender may also make a full attack action while grappled.<--This was explained on the boards by James or Jason.

IIRC:If you attempt to grapple, but get during the attack of opportunity the grapple DC increases. I can't find this rule, but I thought I was it once.

It is under Combat Maneuvers:

From the PRD:

Quote:
If you are hit by the target, you take the damage normally and apply that amount as a penalty to the attack roll to perform the maneuver.

I must be blind. That is the first place I looked, thanks.


Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Great idea!

However, I'm not really sure that the defender needs to succeed at a CMB vs. CMD roll to "perform an action requiring only one hand" as your chart indicates. Can you provide the rules text that indicated that this would be the case?


Zaister wrote:

Great idea!

However, I'm not really sure that the defender needs to succeed at a CMB vs. CMD roll to "perform an action requiring only one hand" as your chart indicates. Can you provide the rules text that indicated that this would be the case?

He does not need to succeed to use the action requiring one hand. You are correct.

Dark Archive

Zaister wrote:

Great idea!

However, I'm not really sure that the defender needs to succeed at a CMB vs. CMD roll to "perform an action requiring only one hand" as your chart indicates. Can you provide the rules text that indicated that this would be the case?

I think that you are right. Here is the section in the PRD:

Spoiler:

If You Are Grappled: If you are grappled, you can attempt to break the grapple as a standard action by making a combat maneuver check (DC equal to your opponent's CMD; this does not provoke an attack of opportunity) or Escape Artist check (with a DC equal to your opponent's CMD). If you succeed, you break the grapple and can act normally. Alternatively, if you succeed, you can become the grappler, grappling the other creature (meaning that the other creature cannot freely release the grapple without making a combat maneuver check, while you can). Instead of attempting to break or reverse the grapple, you can take any action that requires only one hand to perform, such as cast a spell or make an attack with a light or one-handed weapon against any creature within your reach, including the creature that is grappling you. See the grappled condition for additional details. If you are pinned, your actions are very limited. See the pinned condition in Conditions for additional details.

Shadow Lodge

How exactly would the Greater Grapple feat effect the flow chart for round 2 of the attacker, allow them to do two of the actions on a successful grapple attempt? Thats how I understand it, but Im not 100% clear on that. This flow chart is nice.

In regards to rolling for an action that requires one hand or casting a spell, you do NOT have to roll to use a one handed weapon, but you still have to make you concentration check of DC = 10 + attacker's CMB + spell level, as per the grappled condition details on page 567, to cast a spell. So yes, it seems it is correct in saying the defender CMB vs attacker CMD is only to escape or attempt to reverse the grapple.

*EDIT* While im thinking about it, this question has come up in my game before. Im playing a grapple focused monk, and have the Improved Grapple Feat. Now i had a caster grappled, and my base CMB was 6, but my CMB for a grapple is 8. Now when the caster was trying to make his concentration check, would my CMB for it be the base of 6, or an 8 because it was a grapple? It turned out to not matter when they rolled a 1 and auto failed, but Ive wondered ever since.


Kabump wrote:
*EDIT* While im thinking about it, this question has come up in my game before. Im playing a grapple focused monk, and have the Improved Grapple Feat. Now i had a caster grappled, and my base CMB was 6, but my CMB for a grapple is 8. Now when the caster was trying to make his concentration check, would my CMB for it be the base of 6, or an 8 because it was a grapple? It turned out to not matter when they rolled a 1 and auto failed, but Ive wondered ever since.

I'd say 8. When you refer to the CMB definition you see "Some feats and abilities grant a bonus to your CMB when performing specific maneuvers."

Are you performing a specific maneuver?
Yes, a grapple.
Then the bonus should apply to your CMB for that check.


concerro wrote:
The attacker does not get the +5 to CMB until the defender fails his first attempt to get out of or reverse the grapple.

Not quite true. The basic requirement is that they have NOT SUCCEEDED at escaping/ reversing the grapple. Failing at their attempt to do so would qualify, but so would simply NOT TRYING, I.e. chosing to Full Attack or Cast a Spell. I'm sure that isn't much different than what you were trying to say, but for interest of making the flow chart as 100% clear as possible, I thought it was worth mentioning.

I'm not 100% sure if a 2nd Grapple attempt via Greater Grapple would benefit from the +5 or not. The wording there obviously does use the phrase 'subsequent rounds' but it's used at the very end of the sentence, not in a way you'd expect an out-and-out requirement to be presented (i.e. 'if the target has not escaped from or reversed the grapple you established a previous round, you recieve a +5 bonus...'), which makes me think it COULD be a naturalistic usage of how it's envisioned MOST grapples proceeding, rather than a rules requirement. I guess I probably WOULD lean towards the interpretation that the +5 bonus only applies in subsequent rounds (largely because it seems the most balanced, vs. allowing an additional +5 for Greater Grapple), but the grammar could be cleaned up to be a bit clearer. Like alot of other stuff that's hopefully addressed in the next update/errata :-)


What has happened to the flowchart? Is there a new web page for it?

I'm looking for an "idiot's guide" to grappling.


Axl wrote:

What has happened to the flowchart? Is there a new web page for it?

I'm looking for an "idiot's guide" to grappling.

Looks like they're on the grapple page.


Thanks. :-)


I used the grapple flow chart on d20pfsrd last night and I noticed what I think are two problems:

1) As currently organized, the chart implies that a grappler who has pinned an opponent can tie them up without making a grapple check. This can be corrected by making the arrow from "Round 3 Attacker's Turn" to "...Tie the defender up" pass through the grapple check:

Round 3 --> Maintain Grapple --> Tie up --> Is defender pinned? --> etc.

2) The flow chart explicitly states that a grappler, who fails his -10 CMB check to move from a grapple to tie up his (not pinned) opponent, does not lose his grapple. The way the rules are written, he should lose the grapple any time he fails an action dependent upon the grapple check (i.e., move, damage, pin, or tie up). The escape artist rules implies that a grapple check or escape artist check by a pinned character moves the character from pinned to grappled, but the FAQ clears that one up.

d20pfsrd Grapple Link

The Exchange

If people agree this is incorrect we will replace with corrected versions anyone wishes to send us.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

E-G wrote:

I used the grapple flow chart on d20pfsrd last night and I noticed what I think are two problems:

1) As currently organized, the chart implies that a grappler who has pinned an opponent can tie them up without making a grapple check. This can be corrected by making the arrow from "Round 3 Attacker's Turn" to "...Tie the defender up" pass through the grapple check:

Round 3 --> Maintain Grapple --> Tie up --> Is defender pinned? --> etc.

2) The flow chart explicitly states that a grappler, who fails his -10 CMB check to move from a grapple to tie up his (not pinned) opponent, does not lose his grapple. The way the rules are written, he should lose the grapple any time he fails an action dependent upon the grapple check (i.e., move, damage, pin, or tie up). The escape artist rules implies that a grapple check or escape artist check by a pinned character moves the character from pinned to grappled, but the FAQ clears that one up.

d20pfsrd Grapple Link

The flow charts are pretty awesome.

I wouldn't put "round 1" "round 2" "round 3" however -- not in the context provided. Rounds are everyone going through their turn on initiative once. The way this is done, it looks like the defender must wait until the next ROUND, not his next TURN to act, and likewise that on the round after the grapple is initiated, the attacker can't do anything during the next round (only the next round after that).

I would just label them:

Attacker initiates
On Defender's turn following grapple
Attacker's next turn

Or something like that.


d20pfsrd.com wrote:
If people agree this is incorrect we will replace with corrected versions anyone wishes to send us.

Do you have a copy of the original file?

If there's agreement about the edits, I'd be happy to make the changes and send it back to you. I could also edit in photoshop, but it won't look as clean.

The Exchange

E-G wrote:

Do you have a copy of the original file? If there's agreement about the edits, I'd be happy to make the changes and send it back to you. I could also edit in photoshop, but it won't look as clean.

I personally only have whatever is currently on the site (is it a PDF? I forget..) I could contact the original creator though to try to either get it updated with corrections, or get a copy of the original files for someone else to update.


Well, no one has responded. I think the rules are pretty clear and in conflict with the existing flow chart. Let me know if you want me to edit it.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Grapple Flowcharts on d20pfsrd.com All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.