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Okay, I can't speak for other conservatives, but as there has been a lot of talk about liberal and conservative these days I would like to post something that I wrote just about two years ago that expresses what I, as a conservative believe. It's called the Articles of Conservatism, intended to be in the vein of the Articles of Confederation.
I) We believe that America is the greatest country in the World, because of the efforts of its people.
II) We believe that everyone is capable of great things.
III) We believe that the best solution for anyone’s problems are the ones they come up with themselves. Americans are smarter than government when it comes to their own individual needs.
IV) We believe that everyone is responsible for his or her own actions.
V) We believe that the greatest asset America has is freedom and it should be exported at every opportunity.
VI) We believe that government’s role is to create a climate where everyone can achieve their greatness and then get out of their way. As Thoreau said “That government is best that governs least.”
VII) We believe that the Constitution is an inspired document and the best source of knowledge about government.
VII) We believe in the rule of law and in the existence of right and wrong.
IX) We believe that taxes serve as a roadblock to economic growth and that lower taxes result in more money for the government.
X) We believe that all people have the right to worship or not worship God as they choose. Government should not dictate how or where a person may worship. A person should not demand that government or private individuals change the way that they act to accommodate that person’s beliefs.
XI) We believe that a person should be judged on their own merits and not on biological factors like gender or race that they have no control over. This applies to both good and bad judgements.
XII) We believe that everyone has the right to think for themselves and to rethink their beliefs when confronted with contrary evidence. Many great conservatives began their lives as liberals.
But what do the talking heads posing as conservatives believe?
I believe I'll make another pot of coffee.
(And I like your list Fryer. Spot on.)
I believe I'll make another pot of coffee.
(And I like your list Fryer. Spot on.)
While your at it, can you toss some bacon on the Fryer? ;D
I) Okay.
II) Okay.
III) Only thing I would add is a very specific stipulation against breaking the law. Sad, but necessary in some circles.
IV) Maybe this should be merged with III...
V) How is America to go about doing this? This is the only article I have a problem with, because it can lead to quasi-crusadic behavior.
VI) Again, with a specific stipulation against breaking the law. White collar crimes hurt too.
VII) Okay, again, maybe this should be merged with VI.
VIII) Inspired as opposed to living? Define inspired.
IX) The lynchpin of the conservative belief. I'm surprised this isn't further up on the list.
X) Something I think we all can agree on.
XI) Only problem with this is that it's so far down on the list. Conservatives have been accused of hand-waving such issues away, agreeing with them in theory and not in practice(or, as seems to be the case post civil rights movment, in practice but not theory). Whether or not this accusation is true depends on the individual conservative. Still, I'd move this up- it's something we all need to agree upon.
XII) No problem with this, just that the last sentence could be seen as a dig against liberals, which might start the mud-slinging anew.
I) We believe that America is the greatest country in the World, because of the efforts of its people.
I oppose nationalism, or anything else that encourage "us vs. them" thinking. We're all just people. What, I wonder, is the point of asserting our superiority?
III) We believe that the best solution for anyone’s problems are the ones they come up with themselves. Americans are smarter than government when it comes to their own individual needs.
This strikes me as a dramatic oversimplification. It's not always about who is smarter. Sometimes individuals acting in their own best interest *don't* product the best collective outcome (the tragedy of the commons). Sometimes, individuals don't have sufficient evidence to make correct decisions (say, when externalized costs go unrecognized). Some things (pubic education) are more efficiently handled in a way that permits leveraging of the economies of scale.
We believe that taxes serve as a roadblock to economic growth and that lower taxes result in more money for the government.
That is self-evidently true or false, depending where on the Laffer Curve one rests, which imo is the crux of the disagreement.
XII) We believe that everyone has the right to think for themselves and to rethink their beliefs when confronted with contrary evidence. Many great conservatives began their lives as liberals.
And the converse is also true. That last bit would be better left off, as it basically comes across as "You have the right to agree with us."
gets some popcorn and sits to the right of the mudpit to watch the pigs slop.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I) Agreed (the cynic in me wants to say 'in spite of' but I ignore her)
II) Agreed, but accept that not everyone is capable of everything (I'm a great auditor, diplomat, not so much)
III) Agreed, especially when tied in with IV
IV) Agreed (and consequences)
V) Agreed
VI) Agreed
VII) Agreed (Inspired by the works of Man or the hand of the Divine doesn't matter, stop reading things into it.)
VII) I'd qualify it as The rule of law to ensure everyone has oportunity and to not allow one to deny the labour of his work.
IX) Agreed
X) Agreed, but I'd ammend: A person should not demand that government or private individuals change the way that they act to accommodate that person’s beliefs if those beliefs impact others.
XI) Agreed
XII) Agreed And we agree to still uphold XI if they do change their minds.
All looks good to me Dave, thumbs up.
1 and 5 are scary
I) We believe that America is the greatest country in the World, because of the efforts of its people.
V) We believe that the greatest asset America has is freedom and it should be exported at every opportunity.
I'm curious what about those you think of as scary. I'll admit 1 could be contorted into some really bad hubris, so that I can partially understand, but I don't think of anything at all terrifying about 5.
1 and 5 are scaryI'm curious what about those you think of as scary. I'll admit 1 could be contorted into some really bad hubris, so that I can partially understand, but I don't think of anything at all terrifying about 5.I) We believe that America is the greatest country in the World, because of the efforts of its people.
V) We believe that the greatest asset America has is freedom and it should be exported at every opportunity.
I can see #5 implying imperialism.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I can see #5 implying imperialism.1 and 5 are scaryI'm curious what about those you think of as scary. I'll admit 1 could be contorted into some really bad hubris, so that I can partially understand, but I don't think of anything at all terrifying about 5.I) We believe that America is the greatest country in the World, because of the efforts of its people.
V) We believe that the greatest asset America has is freedom and it should be exported at every opportunity.
<sarc>What's wrong with imperialism?</sarc>
Seriously, if a little spreading of Democracy (via education, trade, or just poking them with a stick) were to make the world a better place, is it worth it?
And as a firm believer in I) trying to bring the world up to our level is a laudable goal. Worked in Japan, didn't it?
How to do it w/o paving over a culture, or breaking the bank, that's the trick.
I can see #5 implying imperialism.1 and 5 are scaryI'm curious what about those you think of as scary. I'll admit 1 could be contorted into some really bad hubris, so that I can partially understand, but I don't think of anything at all terrifying about 5.I) We believe that America is the greatest country in the World, because of the efforts of its people.
V) We believe that the greatest asset America has is freedom and it should be exported at every opportunity.
IMPERIALISM! That's the word I was looking for. Replace "quasi-crusader" with imperialism above.
Also, MM, didn't it take a war to get the democracy ball rolling in Japan? Just asking.
I must say that I am appalled that people from anywhere can say #1 with a straight face. Oh, and that #5 is indeed scary.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I can see #5 implying imperialism.1 and 5 are scaryI'm curious what about those you think of as scary. I'll admit 1 could be contorted into some really bad hubris, so that I can partially understand, but I don't think of anything at all terrifying about 5.I) We believe that America is the greatest country in the World, because of the efforts of its people.
V) We believe that the greatest asset America has is freedom and it should be exported at every opportunity.IMPERIALISM! That's the word I was looking for. Replace "quasi-crusader" with imperialism above.
Also, MM, didn't it take a war to get the democracy ball rolling in Japan? Just asking.
Well, I think it's fair to say, "They started it..." The point was that we exported Democracy by the sword to Japan, and by the radio and blue jeans to eastern europe and Russia. I'll even be kind and say by 'we' I mean democracies in the west. Japan seems to have survived having western freedoms grafted on eastern norms. Even if it does seem to have created tentacle porn...
Well, I think it's fair to say, "They started it..." The point was that we exported Democracy by the sword to Japan, and by the radio and blue jeans to eastern europe and Russia. I'll even be kind and say by 'we' I mean democracies in the west. Japan seems to have survived having western freedoms grafted on eastern norms. Even if it does seem to have created tentacle porn...I can see #5 implying imperialism.1 and 5 are scaryI'm curious what about those you think of as scary. I'll admit 1 could be contorted into some really bad hubris, so that I can partially understand, but I don't think of anything at all terrifying about 5.I) We believe that America is the greatest country in the World, because of the efforts of its people.
V) We believe that the greatest asset America has is freedom and it should be exported at every opportunity.IMPERIALISM! That's the word I was looking for. Replace "quasi-crusader" with imperialism above.
Also, MM, didn't it take a war to get the democracy ball rolling in Japan? Just asking.
But that's the thing- the sword was involved. I'd say Russia would be a better defense of number five than Japan is for your statement.
{EDIT} And I'm ALLLLLLLLLLLLL for tentacles. ;-)
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I can see #5 implying imperialism.1 and 5 are scaryI'm curious what about those you think of as scary. I'll admit 1 could be contorted into some really bad hubris, so that I can partially understand, but I don't think of anything at all terrifying about 5.I) We believe that America is the greatest country in the World, because of the efforts of its people.
V) We believe that the greatest asset America has is freedom and it should be exported at every opportunity.
Even though freedom and imperialism don't mix? And American exceptionalism is something that has been recognized by many philosophers going all the way back to de Toqueville.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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II) We believe that everyone is capable of great things.III) We believe that the best solution for anyone’s problems are the ones they come up with themselves. Americans are smarter than government when it comes to their own individual needs.
IV) We believe that everyone is responsible for his or her own actions.
VI) We believe that government’s role is to create a climate where everyone can achieve their greatness and then get out of their way. As Thoreau said “That government is best that governs least.”
X) We believe that all people have the right to worship or not worship God as they choose. Government should not dictate how or where a person may worship. A person should not demand that government or private individuals change the way that they act to accommodate that person’s beliefs.
XI) We believe that a person should be judged on their own merits and not on biological factors like gender or race that they have no control over. This applies to both good and bad judgements.
XII) We believe that everyone has the right to think for themselves and to rethink their beliefs when confronted with contrary evidence....
If I agree for the most part with 2, 3, 4, 6, 10, 11, and 12 but think 1 and 7 are silly, 5 is scary, and that 8 and 9 depend on the circumstance does that make me a conservative? As always, I respect and admire you David for the consistency and clarity with which you communicate your ideals.
I) We believe that America is the greatest country in the World, because of the efforts of its people.V) We believe that the greatest asset America has is freedom and it should be exported at every opportunity.
VII) We believe that the Constitution is an inspired document and the best source of knowledge about government.
VIII) We believe in the rule of law and in the existence of right and wrong.
IX) We believe that taxes serve as a roadblock to economic growth and that lower taxes result in more money for the government.
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VIII) Inspired as opposed to living? Define inspired.
Well, whether you believe, as I do, that it was divinely inspired or simply the product of the best minds in the colonies at the time applying the best ideas from the Enlightenment, English Common Law, and their own unique twists to address specific concerns that they had, you have to admit that teh Constitution is a fairly remarkable document. After all it has only had to altered 27 times in 200 years to be able to deal with concerns and issues the founders could have never imagined. If that is not inspired, I'm not sure what is.
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Implying that your nation is the greatest on earth, and that you should export your 'freedom' to other nations can very, very easily lead to military imperialism. Now, it can be a positive, for sure. Pride in your country and her customs is not a bad thing, but it can lead to problems, as I've said above.
If exporting democracy involves showing the world, diplomatically and culturally, that democracy works and leads to a better way of life for everyone, then that's good and something we should all do. If it involves invading nations that are 'problematic', then it's scary.
Well, whether you believe, as I do, that it was divinely inspired or simply the product of the best minds in the colonies at the time applying the best ideas from the Enlightenment, English Common Law, and their own unique twists to address specific concerns that they had, you have to admit that teh Constitution is a fairly remarkable document. After all it has only hade to altered 27 times in 200 years to be able to deal with concerns and issues the founders could have never imagined. If that is not inspired, I'm not sure what is.VIII) Inspired as opposed to living? Define inspired.
Of course I find the constitution to be an inspired document, I just didn't know if you meant inspired in that it was an amazing piece of work or some sort of political movement, in the same way there is some sort of movement to get the constitution recognized as a living document or something. Wasn't sure if there was a double entendre there.
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Implying that your nation is the greatest on earth, and that you should export your 'freedom' to other nations can very, very easily lead to military imperialism. Now, it can be a positive, for sure. Pride in your country and her customs is not a bad thing, but it can lead to problems, as I've said above.
If exporting democracy involves showing the world, diplomatically and culturally, that democracy works and leads to a better way of life for everyone, then that's good and something we should all do. If it involves invading nations that are 'problematic', then it's scary.
I'm actually in favor of the former and against the later. For example, when a friend of mine asked what my solution to illegal immigration was, I said require companies that do buisness in the United States to pay a comparable wage to their employees outside the United States. It would both decrease the flow of jobs leaving the United States and increase the standard of living in countries like Mexico and other third world nations that American countries run sweat shops. I highly doubt such a thing would happen since politicians are interested more in big buisness donations then they are in actually providing for employees. If one needs evidence they need look no further than the most reacent minimum wage hike. American Samoa, the site of a major tuna company's largest cannerys, was exempted from the raise. The reason is that an influintal member of the House recieves major donations from that company. So while everyopne else in America gets around $9 under minimum wage, American Samoans still get payed $2.36 an hour.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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I must say that I am appalled that people from anywhere can say #1 with a straight face. Oh, and that #5 is indeed scary.
If all countries were equal, no one would ever emigrate. The fact is, countries are NOT all equal. If you dispute that, go live in, say, Somalia for a while and tell me then if you don't like it better where you came from. The fact that countries are not equal also implies that somewhere out there, one country is better than the others. That many Americans believe that America is that country is pretty understandable. If we didn't, we would probably have moved somewhere else. Plenty of Mexicans sure seem to think at least that America is better than Mexico, or else they wouldn't be risking their lives streaming across the border illegally by the thousands. But feel free to prefer whatever country you like... it's a matter of preference, not an absolute.
As to #5, I'd counter that American freedom is based on the idea of inalienable human rights. If you have a problem with human beings from one country promoting human rights for their fellow human beings in other countries, then I don't know what to say to that. America can't and shouldn't intervene everywhere in the world where human rights are being violated, but when we do, at least we are helping our fellow man instead of burying our heads in the sand. At least we didn't think it was "scary" to export American freedoms to Europe in two World Wars. I am not arguing that Europeans' civil liberties were "invented" in any way by Americans... but we have sure done our part to protect them from tyranny, and we've done that all over the world.
It makes my head a-splode when the people who say "America shouldn't interfere in places like Iraq and Afghanistan" are the same people who say "why aren't those Americans helping those poor Rwandans and Cambodians." Just think about it the next time you see somebody being oppressed in the world on the news and think "somebody should do something about that."
I) We believe that America is the greatest country in the World...
I've never lived anywhere else so I have no way of saying for sure. I certainly wouldn't make such a blanket statement with such limited personal experience.
II) We believe that everyone is capable of great things.
Not true. Some people have physical or mental handicaps and in all realistic measures will never do anything significant. I suppose it does depend on your definition of "great" though... perhaps the mentally handicapped would consider adding 2+2 great. It all depends on your perspective.
III) We believe that the best solution for anyone’s problems are the ones they come up with themselves. Americans are smarter than government when it comes to their own individual needs.
Blanket statements and I do not get along. Sometimes other people are smarter than me. Sometimes I am smarter than other people. I do not believe, by default, that I know better than the government in all things. I actually have some level of trust that group-think evolves over time to take into consideration the experiences of the past that I myself have not had the benefit of experiencing, and sometimes this evolving group-think may result in a common benefit that an individual would not have developed singularly.
IV) We believe that everyone is responsible for his or her own actions.
I *mostly* agree, though again, a blanket statement. I'm guessing there are certainly exceptions in extraordinary circumstances.
V) We believe that the greatest asset America has is freedom and it should be exported at every opportunity.
Define "Freedom". We have some freedoms other countries do not and some countries have freedoms we do not. Wouldn't it be more reasonable to say that we should work to improve the quality of life for everyone around the world, regardless of boundaries or borders, including attempting to increase freedoms for all, including ourselves?
VI) We believe that government’s role is to create a climate where everyone can achieve their greatness and then get out of their way. As Thoreau said “That government is best that governs least.”
I don't want a government to create a climate where everyone can achieve greatness. I just want the government to ensure that people are treated fairly and equally with dignity and respect, that we are protected from danger from foreign invaders or internal criminals and miscreants, and that we have good roads and infrastructure. Ideally the government will also ensure that everyone has an equal opportunity to receive a quality education.
VII) We believe that the Constitution is an inspired document and the best source of knowledge about government.
Its good certainly but don't go overboard. Its not like it was written by a deity or anything. I say it, like anything, can be improved over time, as new situations arise. In general though, its a pretty darned good document.
VII) We believe in the rule of law...
Sure, ok.
...and in the existence of right and wrong.
Here's where we part ways. I don't believe anything is inherently "right" or "wrong". I also do not believe in "good" or "evil" or any sort of "god". I think there are certain actions that benefit society and should be rewarded if you want a stronger society and certain actions that do not benefit society and should be punished if you want to discourage such things. I believe that the concepts of "good" and "evil" are simplistic and vary from place to place and culture to culture but that the concepts of "good for society" and "bad for society" are probably common across cultures. Generally, taking things from others makes it harder to cooperate. Killing/harming others makes others not want to be around you or trust you, and therefore sets you apart from society... its not conducive to a harmonious society.
IX) We believe that taxes serve as a roadblock to economic growth and that lower taxes result in more money for the government.
This one is a can of worms. How low is low enough? Certainly you wouldn't say that 0% taxes generates the most money for the government? No, you have to find that fine line. Instead of just aiming for "lower at any cost" I prefer to try to aim for "that right number" that generates sufficient revenue for the government to be able to do its job.
X) We believe that all people have the right to worship or not worship God as they choose. Government should not dictate how or where a person may worship. A person should not demand that government or private individuals change the way that they act to accommodate that person’s beliefs.
Wow, I wouldn't have thought this to be a tenet of conservatism if you go by all the nut jobs trying to force religion down my throat. Note: If you do not agree with religion in government or if you support a separation of church and state I do not refer to you as a nut job. If you do however... then we certainly do not see eye to eye.
XI) We believe that a person should be judged on their own merits and not on biological factors like gender or race that they have no control over. This applies to both good and bad judgements.
Agreed. No one race/religion/gender/whatever should have any special treatment or rights over others. While I tend to be much more liberal than conservative I happen to be vehemently anti-affirmative action as I believe it is just another form of discrimination just as vile as any other.
XII) We believe that everyone has the right to think for themselves and to rethink their beliefs when confronted with contrary evidence. Many great conservatives began their lives as liberals.
And as someone else said above me, the reverse is certainly also true. I agree that you probably should leave off that last sentence though as it does sound like an unnecessary jab at liberals. If that was intentional then you are just trying to be provocative which isn't really conducive to a reasonable conversation.
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I) We believe that America is the greatest country in the World...I've never lived anywhere else so I have no way of saying for sure. I certainly wouldn't make such a blanket statement with such limited personal experience.
II) We believe that everyone is capable of great things.Not true. Some people have physical or mental handicaps and in all realistic measures will never do anything significant. I suppose it does depend on your definition of "great" though... perhaps the mentally handicapped would consider adding 2+2 great. It all depends on your perspective.
I have lived in other countries, and visted quyite a few that I haven't lived in. I feel safe in saying that on Par we are the best I have ever been to. Furthermore, I meant that everyone is capable of achieving great things within the limits of their capacity. For some people, just holding down a steady job would be acomplishing great things.
I have lived in other countries, and visted quyite a few that I haven't lived in. I feel safe in saying that on Par we are the best I have ever been to. Furthermore, I meant that everyone is capable of achieving great things within the limits of their capacity. For some people, just holding down a steady job would be acomplishing great things.
Don't misunderstand me, I don't debate that we MAY be the "best" country in the world (at least when it comes to the "where would I most enjoy living?" question) but for me personally I think I could enjoy living some other places too. I have a feeling that amongst the more advanced democracies you'd just be trading one set of annoying laws for a different set of annoying laws. After GB was re-elected I considered moving to Canada then after investigating the matter concluded I'd just rather have our stupid laws over their stupid laws and I would bite the bullet for 4 more years under the hope that something better would come along. Thankfully I was rewarded with Obama. I'm hoping that he makes some headway in repairing our image around the world, but given the forum I am posting in I suspect I will be the minority with that opinion.
II) We believe that everyone is capable of great things.Not true. Some people have physical or mental handicaps and in all realistic measures will never do anything significant. I suppose it does depend on your definition of "great" though... perhaps the mentally handicapped would consider adding 2+2 great. It all depends on your perspective.
Einstein, Alexander Bell, Thomas Edison, FDR, Helen Keller, Beethoven, Woodrow Wilson. All great people with various mental/physical handicaps.
That's not to say all handicapped people will do great things, but neither will all non-handicapped people.
That's not to say all handicapped people will do great things, but neither will all non-handicapped people.
Oh certainly. I did not mean to imply that a handicapped person could not ever achieve something significant in life, only that a blanket statement that all people are capable of greatness didn't seem to be a good statement to make. Some people are *not* capable of greatness. I added in a disclaimer suggesting that if you purposely leave the definition of "greatness" sufficiently vague then the statement really has no meaning. An ant achieves greatness by avoiding my foot with that definition. I doubt one would normally suggest that every creature, down to the common ant, is capable of achieving "greatness." There has to be some understanding of what "greatness" implies or else there's no point in even saying it.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, 2011 Top 32
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I think perhaps it might be useful to draw a distinction between Social Conservatives and Fiscal Conservatives. I consider myself fairly Fiscally Conservative, but Socially Liberal. It appears to me that this list of beliefs comes more from a Fiscal Conservative point of view than a Social one.
I think perhaps it might be useful to draw a distinction between Social Conservatives and Fiscal Conservatives. I consider myself fairly Fiscally Conservative, but Socially Liberal. It appears to me that this list of beliefs comes more from a Fiscal Conservative point of view than a Social one.
Then let's get some social conservatives in here! Let's keep this ball rolling.
That's not to say all handicapped people will do great things, but neither will all non-handicapped people.Oh certainly. I did not mean to imply that a handicapped person could not ever achieve something significant in life, only that a blanket statement that all people are capable of greatness didn't seem to be a good statement to make. Some people are *not* capable of greatness. I added in a disclaimer suggesting that if you purposely leave the definition of "greatness" sufficiently vague then the statement really has no meaning. An ant achieves greatness by avoiding my foot with that definition. I doubt one would normally suggest that every creature, down to the common ant, is capable of achieving "greatness." There has to be some understanding of what "greatness" implies or else there's no point in even saying it.
Fair enough, but you never know who will rise above the masses and do some thing great. Anyone might do so.
I must say that I am appalled that people from anywhere can say #1 with a straight face. Oh, and that #5 is indeed scary.If all countries were equal, no one would ever emigrate. The fact is, countries are NOT all equal. If you dispute that, go live in, say, Somalia for a while and tell me then if you don't like it better where you came from. The fact that countries are not equal also implies that somewhere out there, one country is better than the others. That many Americans believe that America is that country is pretty understandable. If we didn't, we would probably have moved somewhere else. Plenty of Mexicans sure seem to think at least that America is better than Mexico, or else they wouldn't be risking their lives streaming across the border illegally by the thousands. But feel free to prefer whatever country you like... it's a matter of preference, not an absolute.
What do you people mean by "greatest country" ? The one with the best quality of life ? One could get this impression from your mention of Somalia. If I am not mistaken, many countries fare better than the US in this aspect, should one consider the many indexes which try to measure this. If this is not it, what is it then ? Is it the greatest due to its higher moral standards, when compared to all other countries in the world ? Because I must say that this is both false (in fact, it is quite difficult for me to even know how one measures and ranks this) and insulting to people from elsewhere.
As to immigration, people make decisions based on necessity and opportunity. One could say that there are more job opportunities (or better paying jobs, or better wok conditions, whatever) for Mexicans in the US than in Mexico. Is this the measure of the greatest country? The one with the better jobs ?
As to #5, I'd counter that American freedom is based on the idea of inalienable human rights. If you have a problem with human beings from one country promoting human rights for their fellow human beings in other countries, then I don't know what to say to that. America can't and shouldn't intervene everywhere in the world where human rights are being violated, but when we do, at least we are helping our fellow man instead of burying our heads in the sand. At least we didn't think it was "scary" to export American freedoms to Europe in two World Wars. I am not arguing that Europeans' civil liberties were "invented" in any way by Americans... but we have sure done our part to protect them from tyranny, and we've done that all over the world.It makes my head a-splode when the people who say "America shouldn't interfere in places like Iraq and Afghanistan" are the same people who say "why aren't those Americans helping those poor Rwandans and Cambodians." Just think about it the next time you see somebody being oppressed in the world on the news and think "somebody should do something about...
I have no problem with the "promotion of human rights" in other countries. In fact, I agree that US intervention was crucial during the World Wars. However, you must agree with me that those who are being "aided" must want that help, of course. And that the means by which this help is offered must also be taken into account. To be clear by means of an example, the US "helped" Brazil and Chile, among other South American countries, to establish bloody military tirannies to preemptively combat a perceived "threat" that the current pro-socialism governments presented to democracy. Even though both João Goulart and Salvador Allende had been democratically elected. Let me say this again: democratically elected chiefs of state were toppled with the support of the US in favor of military regimes in the name of democracy. So you see why I might have an issue when people who perceive their country as superior in some sense support the idea that "they should spread freedom". Because it can be dangerous, let us not pretend the contrary.
Fair enough, but you never know who will rise above the masses and do some thing great. Anyone might do so.
Agreed +10. You never know who from today will be most noteworthy 100 years from now. The guy living down the street from you could discover the cure for cancer or be elected leader of your country and achieve social harmony in whatever place you inhabit. Or that person might be a serial killer. Or, nothing special, just another grunt raising his kids trying to make it to his next paycheck and hoping his car payment doesn't bounce.
It makes my head a-splode when the people who say "America shouldn't interfere in places like Iraq and Afghanistan" are the same people who say "why aren't those Americans helping those poor Rwandans and Cambodians." Just think about it the next time you see somebody being oppressed in the world on the news and think "somebody should do something about...
I read this with more care and I think it deserves questioning. Let me ask then: "Why aren't them ?" And the answer, I think, is "because it is not about fighting oppression."
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I think perhaps it might be useful to draw a distinction between Social Conservatives and Fiscal Conservatives. I consider myself fairly Fiscally Conservative, but Socially Liberal. It appears to me that this list of beliefs comes more from a Fiscal Conservative point of view than a Social one.
True I do tend to be more fiscally conservative. Socially I tend towards if it doesn't hurt anyone it's not the government's buisness. The last time I took one of those political spectrum quizs I was defined as a Liberitarian leaning conservative.
Edit: For example, my biggest complaint about the current health care debacle is that they keep trying to tell us that adding 30 million more people to what amounts to Medicade will reduce the deficit and cut costs. This does not jive with my understanding of economics ad budgets. I would rather be told that my taxes are going up then being lied to about it being "self paying."
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Here's where we part ways. I don't believe anything is inherently "right" or "wrong". I also do not believe in "good" or "evil" or any sort of "god". I think there are certain actions that benefit society and should be rewarded if you want a stronger society and certain actions that do not benefit society and should be punished if you want to discourage such things. I believe that the concepts of "good" and "evil" are simplistic and vary from place to place and culture to culture but that the concepts of "good for society" and "bad for society" are probably common across cultures. Generally, taking things from others makes it harder to cooperate. Killing/harming others makes others not want to be around you or trust you, and therefore sets you apart from society... its not conducive to a harmonious society.
So the following are neither inherently right or wrong? They are only a matter of cultural perspective?
1 Flying a hijacked plane into a building.
2 Invading a foriegn country that attacked yours.
3 All law abiding citizens carrying a concealed firearm.
4 Disarming all law abiding citizens.
5 Additional taxes on those who smoke.
6 Prohibiting smoking.
7 Allowing unlimited editorial license to the press.
8 Prohibiting "offensive" thoughts/statements in press.
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Here's where we part ways. I don't believe anything is inherently "right" or "wrong". I also do not believe in "good" or "evil" or any sort of "god". I think there are certain actions that benefit society and should be rewarded if you want a stronger society and certain actions that do not benefit society and should be punished if you want to discourage such things. I believe that the concepts of "good" and "evil" are simplistic and vary from place to place and culture to culture but that the concepts of "good for society" and "bad for society" are probably common across cultures. Generally, taking things from others makes it harder to cooperate. Killing/harming others makes others not want to be around you or trust you, and therefore sets you apart from society... its not conducive to a harmonious society.So the following are neither inherently right or wrong? They are only a matter of cultural perspective?
1 Flying a hijacked plane into a building.
2 Invading a foriegn country that attacked yours.
3 All law abiding citizens carrying a concealed firearm.
4 Disarming all law abiding citizens.
5 Additional taxes on those who smoke.
6 Prohibiting smoking.
7 Allowing unlimited editorial license to the press.
8 Prohibiting "offensive" thoughts/statements in press.
I would add
9 Helping an old man who's car broke down on the side of the road.10 Killing someone in cold blood.
III) We believe that the best solution for anyone’s problems are the ones they come up with themselves. Americans are smarter than government when it comes to their own individual needs.
This is the one that worries me the most. People are perfectly capable of making horrendous decisions on their own, even when they have all the relevant information. It gets even worse when they don't have the information they need to make an informed choice. It gets even worse when they don't care that they don't have the information they need.
I believe that there are many Americans who are not well-served by being left to their own devices when it comes to important decisions.
I believe in good and evil, right and wrong.
I also believe in winners and losers.
Nothing is inherently right or wrong. Different cultures have, at varying points in history, held differing morals to be right or wrong, needed or not. Moral Objectivity is impossible.
I took a course in deviance and social norms from the woman who literally wrote the Cambridge dictionary's definition on deviance. Her assertion was that there is actually one (and only one) social norm that is constant across all cultures that she has seen: respect for elders. There are exceptions to everything else.
1 Flying a hijacked plane into a building.
Depends. It depends on why. If there was a nuclear bomb in the building and the only way to prevent it from destroying all of Big City X was to take control of the airplane you were on and fly it into the big building, I doubt many would consider that "wrong". It depends on what the situation is wouldn't you say? What if that building housed all known terrorists in the world and you could take them all out at once? Depends.
2 Invading a foriegn country that attacked yours.
Depends. What if your leader was an imperialistic nut job who liked taking other peoples things and the other country attacked you to stop your leader from taking their stuff? Depends.
3 All law abiding citizens carrying a concealed firearm.
I don't even get this one. What are you asking? Is it wrong for all law abiding people to carry firearms? Ummm I don't care, as long as you don't shoot me with it or use it to take away other peoples rights.
4 Disarming all law abiding citizens.
I don't have any weapons but if a government said that its citizens could not have weapons I'd be suspicious that the government had some malicious plan in mind. Disarming law abiding citizens, by itself, is not good, bad, right or wrong, its the next part that might be undesirable for the populace.
5 Additional taxes on those who smoke.
Right? Wrong? Good? Evil? Are you asking me is it right to tax smokers? Ummm I wouldn't probably do it but I don't think its inherently "right" or "wrong". Doesn't seem like a good idea but that has nothing to do with right or wrong to me.
6 Prohibiting smoking.
Taking away rights is not conducive to a successful or harmonious society. It promotes disharmony and unrest in the populace and therefore is a net negative in social constructiveness. Note I do not say "wrong" or "evil" merely that it is not conducive to a happy populace.
7 Allowing unlimited editorial license to the press.
In the United States (and may other countries) "freedom of expression" is an expected "right" and diminishing that "right" would cause social unrest, leading to social disharmony. This would not be socially constructive.
8 Prohibiting "offensive" thoughts/statements in press.
In the United States (and may other countries) "freedom of expression" is an expected "right" and diminishing that "right" would cause social unrest, leading to social disharmony. This would not be socially constructive.
Note that I do not suggest what is right or wrong or good or evil, merely stating that which is likely to be more or less constructive to a successful society.
If you view a large, interdependent society that favors order and structure over personal liberty and individual freedom as a positive thing, then you might consider that "good".
If you view a large, interdependent society that favors individual freedom and personal liberty over the social structures, then you might consider that "bad".
Again, it all comes down to "it depends". Some people favor the simplicity of black/white, yes/no, good/bad, but I tend to dwell in a place where I view things as a tad more complicated than that.
A lot of people would disagree that there are in fact right and wrongs in the world and that this is inherent to all people.
I'm ok with a lot of people being wrong. :)
9 Helping an old man who's car broke down on the side of the road.
You are socially adjusted to believe that helping others is a good thing. You are taught that from early childhood that it is a "good" thing to help others. If you take a small child and never teach him to share, to not take toys from other children, that hitting is "bad", etc, that child would grow up a bit more "pure". By "pure" I mean, not adjusted by society to behave in a certain way. That child would behave in a more pure, animalistic way, in a way which is not socially constructive most likely. He would have a great deal of trouble interacting with others and "fitting in" to society because he has not been "taught" how to fit in.
Fitting in means many things and takes many forms. From doing favors for others (like helping an old man with a flat tire - with the assumption that it may come back to you by way of karma or whatever) to giving compliments to your girlfriend even when you truly think her butt really does look fat to tipping the waitress to blah blah blah they are all things people do to fit into society better. Its not inherently good or evil or right or wrong.
10 Killing someone in cold blood.
Is a cat evil if it kills a mouse for no purpose? No one cares. Are you evil when you step on an ant? No one cares. Suddenly its a matter of "right" and "wrong" or "good" or "evil" when the victim is human? Sure its not conducive to a good society to go running around killing people or taking their things or generally causing mischief, but its not inherently good or evil, as there is no such thing.