The release date on the DMII is on the 19th. How'd you snag an early copy?
The release date is today, the World Wide game day is the 19th
After being a DM on and off for the past 25 years, I have no need nor interest in a book that devotes entire chapters to: telling me how to DM. If I haven't got it by now, I'm never gonna get it.
I think this sort of material should be available on-line, rather than cluttering up chapters in what is supposed to be a 'core book.' But then again, they're all 'core books' now...
DMG2 kicks puppies. I have it on very reliable sources that I am not at liberty to divulge.
Hell, I even recommend it for previous editions DMs.
While it seems like there could be some interesting material in the DMG2 for non-4e DMs, the amount of material isn't enough to justify buying the book. But it's probably worth visiting Barnes & Noble to read through the interesting parts and take some notes.
For 4E DMs this book is definitely a must have. Too bad they're no longer selling pdfs, I'd be buying it already otherwise.
Let's not let this thread devolve into a flame war, please.
After being a DM on and off for the past 25 years, I have no need nor interest in a book that devotes entire chapters to: telling me how to DM. If I haven't got it by now, I'm never gonna get it.
I think this sort of material should be available on-line, rather than cluttering up chapters in what is supposed to be a 'core book.' But then again, they're all 'core books' now...
Um, wow. You actually feel a DMG is 'wasting' space by giving advice on how to run games well? I too have been DMing for near 25 years now and I always feel i could do things a little bit better. Glad you hit the 'nirvana' of perfection o_O
The release date on the DMII is on the 19th. How'd you snag an early copy?The release date is today, the World Wide game day is the 19th
That's when I'm getting mine - my FLGS is having a big sale (as always) to coincide with WWD&D Day.
Let's not let this thread devolve into a flame war, please.
I can't believe:
1. My post was supressed. It broke no rules, and was a response to an (unsurprisingly unsupressed) anti-4E post. I've long taken claims of moderation bias on any site with a grain of salt, but come on.
2. You didn't even specifically indicate any content had been supressed when several posts were removed.
While I have been a LOONNNG tiem advocate of moderation on this board, this is not the way to go about it. You can be as one-sided as you like; that will only drive some folks (myself included) away. But removing content without notice? Seriously?
I hardly recognize this place any more. :(
Speaking as the ultimate pariah (new GM running 4e), I'm eagerly awaiting my copy :D
From my perspective, I'll happily take anything that helps me run a better game. If DMG2 gives me ideas and stimulus and some mechanics, I'll be a very happy penguin.
Speaking as the ultimate pariah (new GM running 4e), I'm eagerly awaiting my copy :D
From my perspective, I'll happily take anything that helps me run a better game. If DMG2 gives me ideas and stimulus and some mechanics, I'll be a very happy penguin.
I just picked it up today. I suspect you will be very happy - I find it hard to imagine any 4th edition DM who wouldnt find something they thought was cool.
I would hesitate to recommend it to a DM of other editions though. Although several of the discussions are applicable to other games, imo they are generally wedded so heavily to the 4th edition mechanics that untangling the message would remove a lot of the enjoyment derived from reading them. I don't know if it counts as advocating piracy (apologies if so), but to echo a poster above - browsing through a copy in the store would be my recommendation also.
Let's not let this thread devolve into a flame war, please.I can't believe:
1. My post was supressed. It broke no rules, and was a response to an (unsurprisingly unsupressed) anti-4E post. I've long taken claims of moderation bias on any site with a grain of salt, but come on.
2. You didn't even specifically indicate any content had been supressed when several posts were removed.
While I have been a LOONNNG tiem advocate of moderation on this board, this is not the way to go about it. You can be as one-sided as you like; that will only drive some folks (myself included) away. But removing content without notice? Seriously?
I hardly recognize this place any more. :(
Generally, I kinda sense that the moderator-type, "don't do that" post is a general sign that something could have been removed.
If that first post was directed at one of the Pathfinder books, I couldn't really; see it being removed either or even producing a warning. However, if it received a response like it did from the removed posts, I could see the response being removed. Just like what happened here. I guess I don't see the forum as one-sided.
DMG2 kicks puppies. I have it on very reliable sources that I am not at liberty to divulge.
Any kind of puppies, or just poodle puppies?
Well I'm certainly looking forward to reading this. I love DM advice type books and believe that DMing well is a life long vocation in which one should always strive to build on and improve.
The book is quite good. It gives ideas for DMing I've never considered before. Not all of it will I use, but it certainly opens up what defines being a DM. And the design advise is invaluable.
It's also full of crunchy goodness for 4e DMs. New traps, terrains, skill challenges, monster themes, artifacts, organizations and more. It introduces alternative rewards besides magic items for your players. It details the city of Sigil very extensively and includes a small adventure.
One of the things that I found enjoyable are the campaign arcs; these are basically synopsizes of adventure paths. They are intriguing and full of original ideas. For example, in one arc, the PCs begin as lowly farmers with little or no powers. Then suddenly a planar shift occurs and the PCs begin slowly discovering their new found powers. Kind of reminds me of "Heroes".
Basically, I found the DMG2 to be even better than the DMG, and I really liked the DMG.
Every several months, WotC comes out with a book that exceeds my expectations. This is definitely one of them.
Um, wow. You actually feel a DMG is 'wasting' space by giving advice on how to run games well? I too have been DMing for near 25 years now and I always feel i could do things a little bit better. Glad you hit the 'nirvana' of perfection o_OAfter being a DM on and off for the past 25 years, I have no need nor interest in a book that devotes entire chapters to: telling me how to DM. If I haven't got it by now, I'm never gonna get it.
I think this sort of material should be available on-line, rather than cluttering up chapters in what is supposed to be a 'core book.' But then again, they're all 'core books' now...
In my opinion, the Core books, particularly the main ones like the PH and DMG should focus on Rule Mechanics almost exclusively. Without solid rules mechanics, you don't have a game. You can be a fine GM or a lousy one, but you need to have the game defined by rules that are clear & understandable, as to what can and cannot be done during the game, or you as a DM are a glorified storyteller, and little else.
Furthermore, Wizards of the Coast has been printing this type of "how to DM a game and a campaign world" filler for years. And that's precisely what it is, FILLER. Much of the content on "how to GM" slated for the 4th edition DMG II, is undoubtedly very similar to what was printed in the 3.5 edition DMG II. Do we really need to buy the same suggestions again in a new edition? The mechanics have changed between editions, the principles of DM'ing the game have not.
I'll much rather have a book that contains a whole lot of rules, so that I don't have to buy a dozen other supplemental books, in an effort to piece the together the rules system of the game. If WoTC wants to put out a separate book on "how to GM" then that's their perogative. Just kindly don't waste my time and money on the same stuff I've been reading from them ever since 2nd edition. Keep the "core books" for rules mechanics only.
In my opinion, the Core books, particularly the main ones like the PH and DMG should focus on Rule Mechanics almost exclusively. Without solid rules mechanics, you don't have a game. You can be a fine GM or a lousy one, but you need to have the game defined by rules that are clear & understandable, as to what can and cannot be done during the game, or you as a DM are a glorified storyteller, and little else.Furthermore, Wizards of the Coast has been printing this type of "how to DM a game and a campaign world" filler for years. And that's precisely what it is, FILLER. Much of the content on "how to GM" slated for the 4th edition DMG II, is undoubtedly very similar to what was printed in the 3.5 edition DMG II. Do we really need to buy the same suggestions again in a new edition? The mechanics have changed between editions, the principles of DM'ing the game have not.
I'll much rather have a book that contains a whole lot of rules, so that I don't have to buy a dozen other supplemental books, in an effort to piece the together the rules system of the game. If WoTC wants to put out a separate book on "how to GM" then that's their perogative. Just kindly don't waste my time and money on the same stuff I've been reading from them ever since 2nd edition. Keep the "core books" for rules mechanics only.
I respect your opinion but we are so far apart on this topic that I really don't have anything to add beyond 'I disagree'. Rules mechanics are a secondary concern for me in books like the DMG.
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One of the things I like about these 4e books is that, as a player, it's very clear which books I should buy, and which I should not.
I buy the PHBs and the Power series. I haven't picked up the Adventurer's Vault 2, because the only thing I would use out of it would be the items, which are available on DDI.
In contrast, it seems like in 3.5, every book had player information. The environment books, the monster type books (Libris Mortis, Lords of Madness, etc), Heroes of whatever - if I missed one, I could be sure I was missing a prestige class, or a spell, or whatever else.
I'll much rather have a book that contains a whole lot of rules, so that I don't have to buy a dozen other supplemental books, in an effort to piece the together the rules system of the game.
Could I interest you in a gently used Fifth Edition Hero System Rulesbook?
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I'll much rather have a book that contains a whole lot of rules, so that I don't have to buy a dozen other supplemental books, in an effort to piece the together the rules system of the game.Could I interest you in a gently used Fifth Edition Hero System Rulesbook?
Sorry, my copy of FRED is already at Half-Price Books
I'll much rather have a book that contains a whole lot of rules, so that I don't have to buy a dozen other supplemental books, in an effort to piece the together the rules system of the game. If WoTC wants to put out a separate book on "how to GM" then that's their perogative. Just kindly don't waste my time and money on the same stuff I've been reading from them ever since 2nd edition. Keep the "core books" for rules mechanics only.I respect your opinion but we are so far apart on this topic that I really don't have anything to add beyond 'I disagree'. Rules mechanics are a secondary concern for me in books like the DMG.Well said.
For myself, I'm perfectly happy to have rules mechanics in the DMG... but that hardly means they should exist to the exclusion of all else. The DMG1 has a ton of solid mechanical information on building encounters, monsters, etc - DMG2 sounds like it has the same, along with traps and more. Accompanying that by fundamental advice on running the game, with good information for DMs new and old - that makes the product complete.
In the end, I just can't agree with the idea that the game should deliberately try to exclude new gamers.
What is even being suggested should take the place of this information? More tables? Obscure mechanics that only serve to clutter the system? Magic item listings, forcing players to buy a book they shouldn't really need?
But, if one would reverse this, isn't this situation similarly excluding older gamers that might be forced to repurchase old information.
I'm also think that your being way too aggressive with that last paragraph. Honestly, looking through the DMG2 Table of Contents, I am seeing a lot of mechanics and such without doing those things that you suggest. I would think that, if they removed the GM Adcived, they could expand on there sections with Terrain, Traps, Skill Challenges, Monster Themes, Templates, and/or Artifacts (although I guess they could create a random artifact table for those inclined).
I'm honestly a bit surprised to see the direction your posts on this thread have taken. You recently, rightly, chastised me for carrying around old baggage with another poster, to see you now bring up an old comment from one of moderators (from a similarly long while ago) which, if I recall correctly, was a result of merely accidentally reversing the words they were saying. These posts do not seem to be from the same person I highly respect.
But, if one would reverse this, isn't this situation similarly excluding older gamers that might be forced to repurchase old information.Well, to be fair - if they already have the information they need in existing products, then they aren't really losing out by not purchasing the new version. But I think there is plenty of valuable advice for new and old in the 4E DMG material - and more importantly, that there is definitely room in these books for the concept of 'DM Advice' without depriving the book of other valuable material for more-experienced DMs.
I'm also think that your being way too aggressive with that last paragraph. Honestly, looking through the DMG2 Table of Contents, I am seeing a lot of mechanics and such without doing those things that you suggest. I would think that, if they removed the GM Adcived, they could expand on there sections with Terrain, Traps, Skill Challenges, Monster Themes, Templates, and/or Artifacts (although I guess they could create a random artifact table for those inclined).They certainly could have more of such areas - but Allen Stewart's concern made it sound as though there was something fundamental the books were missing, something that was absent in order to make room for the DMing and roleplaying advice.... and I was honestly unsure what that might be.
(I probably should note at this point that I'm pretty much fine with the DMG2. I thought GM advice was going to be a larger portion of the book though from the statements about it being great for any edition, but I am still content with it. I can see the advice helping any game, I just see that as a minor portion of the book that, by itself, isn't worth the purchasing price. I'm just arguing because I feel that people, and part of me, can validly feel that a How To GM advice might be more appropriate not in a book alongside the mechanics of building encounters for a specific system)
Now that is done... I believe it is fair to say that something is absent from the book to make room for the GMing and roleplaying advice. I wouldn't suggest they cut anything essential though (I don't think that the DMG2 is essential to playing at all really), just that if the GM advice content were removed, there could be more mechanics that some GMs would prefer. That if the DMG contained only the mechanics, and that another book contained all the advice for GMs, it would be easier to for people to get what they want than if there is a single book like with the page count split between the two products.
I would also love* to arguing over the perception of moderation and what should be appropriate to state or respond with, but like you noted not really appropriate for this thread. I will just note that I ended up spending an irritating amount of time poking through all the big threads in the 4e forums for over the last year to see if I could find the moderator post you mentioned in some desire to read through it again (I recall the post vaguely, just enough to draw my previous conclusion, but not enough to remember where it was *frustration*). You are naturally to blame for bringing it up :P
[Blazej somewhat thinks that monster templates should be in the Monster Manuals along with the monster building guidelines because he feels they fit better within that book. He also thinks that the Class Templates should be in the appropriate Player's Handbooks, because right now, for the purpose of building NPCs from the PH# you "need" both PH# and DMG#, which he finds mildly irriatating.]
*In this case "love" is apparently an more or less uncontrollable desire to argue this which would only result in a large amount of frustration to me :)
One of the things I like about these 4e books is that, as a player, it's very clear which books I should buy, and which I should not.
I buy the PHBs and the Power series. I haven't picked up the Adventurer's Vault 2, because the only thing I would use out of it would be the items, which are available on DDI.
In contrast, it seems like in 3.5, every book had player information. The environment books, the monster type books (Libris Mortis, Lords of Madness, etc), Heroes of whatever - if I missed one, I could be sure I was missing a prestige class, or a spell, or whatever else.
Oh my do i agree with this. I got so sick of having spells spread across a dozen books (then the Spell Compendium 'saved' us) ditto magic items (here comes the Magic Item Compendium). Seems like it was a reason to publish yet another hardback to get us to buy stuff we already own.
Hey - I guess I do agree with Allen somewhat!
[Blazej somewhat thinks that monster templates should be in the Monster Manuals along with the monster building guidelines because he feels they fit better within that book. He also thinks that the Class Templates should be in the appropriate Player's Handbooks, because right now, for the purpose of building NPCs from the PH# you "need" both PH# and DMG#, which he finds mildly irriatating.]
Here I actually agree with you to a significant extent. I'd actually prefer it if they expanded out the monster manuals and made them more along the lines of 'The Big Book of encounters and encounter designs'. Stick in everything one needs for encounters in these types of books including traps, Skill Challenges, templates and of course monsters along with the rules on how to design encounters.
That would make the DMG even more fluff heavy though I think it'd still, inevitably, end up having some crunch. For example the material on turning creatures into appropriate party companions significantly benefits by mixing the two together. Its clearly material for a DMG type book.
I'll much rather have a book that contains a whole lot of rules, so that I don't have to buy a dozen other supplemental books, in an effort to piece the together the rules system of the game. If WoTC wants to put out a separate book on "how to GM" then that's their perogative. Just kindly don't waste my time and money on the same stuff I've been reading from them ever since 2nd edition. Keep the "core books" for rules mechanics only.
While much of the material remains the same from edition to edition a fair bit of the advice actually does change as time goes on. There are suggestions in the 3.5 DMG II that are full on polar opposites of what was recommended in 2nd editions Catacombs. Even the fluff evolves as time goes on - if generally more slowly then mechanics.
One of the things I like about these 4e books is that, as a player, it's very clear which books I should buy, and which I should not.
I buy the PHBs and the Power series. I haven't picked up the Adventurer's Vault 2, because the only thing I would use out of it would be the items, which are available on DDI.
In contrast, it seems like in 3.5, every book had player information. The environment books, the monster type books (Libris Mortis, Lords of Madness, etc), Heroes of whatever - if I missed one, I could be sure I was missing a prestige class, or a spell, or whatever else.
Mixing the stuff together was, of course, intentional in the market (get everyone to buy every book). I'm actually not sure why they changed that marketing tactic as it would seem to be a good idea from a marketing angle.
Possibly because they were finding that it often backfired with people not buying books they might well like due to the book being very light on what they actually wanted. I certainly skipped a lot of 3.5 books with elements a was interested in because I did not feel I could justify getting a whol book for what amounted to maybe some spells and feats. Come to think of it DDI might well be responsible here - as you noted you can get a handful of spells and feats from DDI so it does kind of stand to reason that a marketing model where you had a single chapter devoted to players or the DM just won't fly. They'll just use the DDI.
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Here's the deal:
A lot of NEW players have jumped in with this edition, so for them, this advice isn't old hat. I doubt it contains any non-edition specific stuff I haven't seen over the last thirty years, advice-wise (seriously, there are only so many different ways to show someone how to DM well, and, if you add in every other non-D&D RPG I've played, damn, that's more advice for GMs than we can shake a stick at...), so, were I to DM 4e, those sections probably wouldn't interest me much, but there are, I'm sure, plenty of new DMs who have never seen any of that type of advice.
Some of the old school have to remember something about 4e: the game isn't really being marketed to us. Sure, WotC would like us to play, but they're trying to generate interest in the younger generation, one that has a lot more stuff vying for their attention than we had at the dawn of the '80s. So, they really need to make an effort to make the game as easy to learn and run, in an interesting and fun manner, as possible.
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Here's the deal:
A lot of NEW players have jumped in with this edition, so for them, this advice isn't old hat. I doubt it contains any non-edition specific stuff I haven't seen over the last thirty years, advice-wise (seriously, there are only so many different ways to show someone how to DM well, and, if you add in every other non-D&D RPG I've played, damn, that's more advice for GMs than we can shake a stick at...), so, were I to DM 4e, those sections probably wouldn't interest me much, but there are, I'm sure, plenty of new DMs who have never seen any of that type of advice.
Some of the old school have to remember something about 4e: the game isn't really being marketed to us. Sure, WotC would like us to play, but they're trying to generate interest in the younger generation, one that has a lot more stuff vying for their attention than we had at the dawn of the '80s. So, they really need to make an effort to make the game as easy to learn and run, in an interesting and fun manner, as possible.
I do disagree with your comment that the advice is old-hat. After playing for 30 years, and owning every book from every edition, and all of Dragon and Dungeon, I still found quite a bit of new techniques.
I agree with you insofar as the marketing is concerned.
That's why I added "...and every other non-D&D RPG I've played..."
Trust me, WotC didn't find anything new under the sun.
Still, it is a great resource for GMs, regardless.
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Um, wow. You actually feel a DMG is 'wasting' space by giving advice on how to run games well? I too have been DMing for near 25 years now and I always feel i could do things a little bit better. Glad you hit the 'nirvana' of perfection o_OAfter being a DM on and off for the past 25 years, I have no need nor interest in a book that devotes entire chapters to: telling me how to DM. If I haven't got it by now, I'm never gonna get it.
I think this sort of material should be available on-line, rather than cluttering up chapters in what is supposed to be a 'core book.' But then again, they're all 'core books' now...
I know I could be doing things better, and I think DMG 2 has really got me thinking outside the my rut. Its already informing my PFRPG game, and has me thinking how I want to run my 4e campaign. Just fantastic book.
My only complaint might be the section on Sigil. I'm of two minds, one is that it didn't really belong in the DMG2, just an odd place for it. But if it was going to be in the DMG2 I really wish they had gone into more detail. The DMG2 was kind of page light compared with other core books to begin with, so they "had the space" so I think it could have gone into much greater detail. I love the feel of Planescape, and Sigil is such an awesome aspect of the campaign, it just could have been expanded more.
Does anyone know if the alternate rewards (like Master Training) and other crunchy bits from DMG 2 will be in the Character Builder for October?