Hello,
With the barbarian thread going off on its own way I thought I would pose a question.
Mechanically, what niche does a barbarian have over a fighter, and vice-versa.
My main concern here is that fighters, with their weapon focus feats and weapons training, may have become too good and have taken the place of the barbarian in combat maneuvers masters. Other discussion on comparison also intrigues me.
So if you are interested, thanks.
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To be honest I always thought the Barbarian was just a Fighter with a different flavor. Sort of Cherry I think.
:)
They both seem to fill the same niches: Tanks, Melee Masters.
I think the Barbarian makes a better Tank though. His rage abilities and the extra HP are a necessity and gives him a slight edge. Also as a Two-Weapon Combatant he usually wins (though not always) again because of the raging.
The Barbarian is also a better battlefield commander, able to move faster across the fight.
Just my opinion though.
To be honest I always thought the Barbarian was just a Fighter with a different flavor. Sort of Cherry I think.
:)
They both seem to fill the same niches: Tanks, Melee Masters.
I think the Barbarian makes a better Tank though. His rage abilities and the extra HP are a necessity and gives him a slight edge. Also as a Two-Weapon Combatant he usually wins (though not always) again because of the raging.
The Barbarian is also a better battlefield commander, able to move faster across the fight.
Just my opinion though.
From what I've noticed the barbarian and fighter move the same speed now. The Barbarian gets +10 when wearing medium armor so that assuming a base 30 speed that 20 in medium armor +10 so 30. The fighter now with Armor training at 3rd level gets no movement penalty for wearing medium armor so the fighter is 30 speed too. The Barbarian can go to light armor to get faster but the fighter can also get Heavy armor with no movement penalty at level 7.
So like you said it's just flavor really.
My main concern here is that fighters, with their weapon focus feats and weapons training, may have become too good and have taken the place of the barbarian in combat maneuvers masters. Other discussion on comparison also intrigues me.
My advice is ban the feats Greater Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Specialization, since these were introduced in 3.5 to balance the introduction of Greater Rage Barbarian Class feature. With the advance of Weapon Trainning class future, Greater WS & Greater WF become pointless.
In addition, I recommend to make Weapon Specialization a 1st level Fighter Only Feat. In the other hand, reduce its damage bonus from +2 to +1. Explanation: With this you fill the gap between levels 1 to 4, where fighter do not get weapon trainning. At level 20, the Fighter will have a total bonus of +4 attack and +5 damage (being +1 from Weapon Specialization Feat and +4 from WT).
I also created some Fighter-only FORMATION FEATS (like shield wall, tortoise, phalanx, spear wall, missile volley, cavalary charge) and house ruled that the Critical Feats are Fighter Only Feats. Why? Fighters are the soldier, the profissional warrior whose skill and trainment is greater than the savage/barbarian (think the Roman Legionary vs. the German Barbarian).
With these adaptations I think you keep the balance and fill the niches.
-Shield Wall- If you and one or more adjacent allies with this feat and heavy shields engage in a shield wall
formation (by spending a move action) facing the same direction, you gain a +2 circunstance bonus to AC against
melee attacks, but can only use light weapons (attacks with one-handed weapons suffer -4 penalty).
-Tortoise- If you and one or more adjacent allies with this feat and heavy shields engage in a tortoise formation
(by spending a move action), you gain cover against missile attacks (+4 AC, +2 reflex saves), but take -4 penalty on
melee attack rolls, and cannot run or charge.
-Phalanx- If you engage in a phalanx formation (by spending a move action) and attack with a long spear or other
hafted reach weapon from behind an adjacentt ally who also has this feat, you take only -2 penalty on your attack
roll (instead of -4), and cannot run or charge.
-Spear Wall- If you and one or more adjacent allies with this feat engage in a spear wall formation (by spending
a move action) and ready spears or other weapons that would inflict double damage against charging opponents, you
gain a +2 bonus on the attack roll.
-Mounted Charge- If you and one or more adjacent mounted allies with this feat and lances engage in a mounted
charge formation (by spending a move action) and make a charge attack at the same time against the same target (or
adjacent targets), you gain a +2 bonus on the attack roll.
-Missile volley- If you and one or more adjacent allies with this feat and ranged weapons engage in a missile
volley formation (by spending a move action) and make a ranged attack at the same time against the same target (or
adjacent targets), you gain +2 bonus on the attack roll.
Their both better together. I have never seen a barbarian or fighter without at least one level of the other. It's just so much better to be a barb-1; fighter-X. Especially with the loss of any multiclass penalty.
My main concern here is that fighters, with their weapon focus feats and weapons training, may have become too good and have taken the place of the barbarian in combat maneuvers masters. Other discussion on comparison also intrigues me.My advice is ban the feats Greater Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Specialization, since these were introduced in 3.5 to balance the introduction of Greater Rage Barbarian Class feature. With the advance of Weapon Trainning class future, Greater WS & Greater WF become pointless.
In addition, I recommend to make Weapon Specialization a 1st level Fighter Only Feat. In the other hand, reduce its damage bonus from +2 to +1. Explanation: With this you fill the gap between levels 1 to 4, where fighter do not get weapon trainning. At level 20, the Fighter will have a total bonus of +4 attack and +5 damage (being +1 from Weapon Specialization Feat and +4 from WT).
Well, I somewhat like the idea of the Formation feats (though I'd rather see some fighter only abilities that aren't fighter only feats, those have always bugged me (For instance, instead of armor training and weapon training always providing flat +1's, I'd rather see fighters get a range of optional abilities they can choose from, including the flat bonuses).
I'd rather see barbarian get a bump up, then see fighter get a slap down, and I think it might be better to look at Barbarian and Fighter in the context of the rest of the classes, and the way they'll interact in a group (rather than just running the numbers as if they were fighting each other mano y mano.)
Barbarians do seem to fill a specific niche in a group, along with rogues and to a degree monks. They each seem designed to scout, and to take on casters, archers, and other foes that actively try and avoid melee.
-All three have class abilities and skills that either add to mobility or allow them to move past front line foes (Stealth, increased movement speed, mobility, knockback, etc.)
-All three have added resistance to magical effects that might otherwise target them. Rogues have low HP, for example, but evasion lets them get past a lot of damaging spells. Barbarians have low will saves, but get hefty bonuses to their will saves in a rage and have rage abilities that make them immune to some of the more common disabling effects, (nausea, fear, stun, and to a degree, blindness with scent.) Monks just have great all around saves and a high touch AC, making them particularly troubling for most casters.
-All three have class abilities that are extremely effective at killing or disabling casters (Sneak attack, stunning fist, and just dealing tremendous damage on attacks of opportunity + rage powers such as No Escape).
At odds with this are Disruptive and Spellbreaker, which I honestly don't think should have been fighter only feats in the first place. They fit Barbarians much, much better and would have made excellent rage powers if you wanted to go that route instead of making them generally available feats.
Honestly, I think the barbarian could be fine with just a little tweaking. For my thoughts on that, just check out my homebrew barbarian (http://www.pathfinderdb.com/character-options/classes/135-barbarian).
For straight melee ability, in PF, the fighter will win out every time. The fighter gets a feat every level all the way to 20th, plus some addititve class abilities like weapons and armor. If your worried about hitpoints, the fighter could just take toughness. In the end the fighter has 10 more feats then the barbarian and gets all sorts of weapon bonuses for his weapon groups. 20 feats is a ton of feats, matter of fact most of your fighter builds are going to be the same just because with 20 feats, they end up taking almost all the feats available to them and have to get creative to fill some slots. Just my 2 cents...
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OK, I'll give you my take on it.
I promise no hijacking the thread to share my house-rules, just my take on the RAW :-)
First, the Barbarian seems harder to "take out of the fight".
More HPs + Rage HP "buffer", and though the base Saves are identical, the Barbarian has more ways to increase them (Superstitious, Fear Immunity, Clear Mind).
Second, the Strength factor. Duh. Besides the core Rage STR bonus, Strength Surge really makes a difference, particularly for Maneuvers ()
Third, their Powers seems to offer them "Trump Cards". Doing what others just can't imagine, or even doing what others can but in alternate ways (conducive to Barbarian strengths/ avoiding weaknesses). I'll summarize some of the relevant Powers to explain what I mean here:
Powers:
Clear Mind (8th): Clearly superior to Improved Iron Will which only works 1/x day. Assuming you take Iron Will in addtion to this power (giving you a better chance of passing between 2 rolls), you achieve a hands-down better effect than the Fighter does taking 2 Feats - AND you can also take Improved Iron Will if you REALLY want some Will Save insurance.
Guarded Stance/ Rolling Dodge/ Surprise Accuracy/ Powerful Blow: Due to their level-scaling, these really only come into their own at higher levels. That said, their effect clearly matches Weapon Training (but isn't limited to specific Weapon Groups), as well as compensating for the difference between Heavy/Medium Armor... Given Heavy Armor Proficiency is easily attainable (I'd recommend 1 Fighter level vs. spending a Feat for it), Barbarian AC at high levels should be HIGHER than Fighters when this is activated. I've seen criticism of the fact the AC-boosters need a Move Action to activate, but realistically, in many cases (when you expect the enemy to close anyways, when you are Readying an Action) it isn't a big deal to spare a Move Action, and with a good CON score they will last most of the average combat.
Intimidating Glare/ Terrifying Howl (8th)): I'm not personally so enamored of these (save de-Buffs for Casters, IMHO) but Intimidate as a Move Action (allowing Standard Attack, for example) is certainly a good ability, and Terrifying Howl using BAB+STR is obviously great for Barbarians (though the fact it doesn't update the formula for IG/normal Intimidates is somewhat disappointing). Certainly a good capability for a Caster-light party, and it also synergizes if an ally has Dazzling Display.
Knockback: This is the type of Rage Power to make Fighters jealous - It effectively has the functionality of Shield Slam without the dependency on Shields (allowing 2Handed Weapons again) and Improved Bullrush (minus the +2 bonus, but allowing non-provoking Bullrushes in any situation.
Mighty Swing (12th): Auto-Crit confirm. Sure, Fighters get this... at 20th level. Combined with big STR, Powerful Blow (not to mention Crit Effects like Keen/Vorpal/Burst) you will definitely be able to keep up in the Crit department.
No Escape: Another "nobody else can quite replicate this". Unfortunately, it falls short (in my eyes) because (unless it's updated in Errate) in only applies vs. Withdraw actions. If it applied vs. ANY movement away from you, it would hands down rock. But conceptually, I'd definitely still call this a "Trump Card".
Quick Reflexes: Another one that doesn't REALLY seem so great - taking Combat Reflexes, even with your fewer Feats vs. Fighters, can so easily offer much more pay-back. ...BUT.. if you're a low DEX Barbarian, this truly does offer something that low DEX Fighters/Paladins can't accompish. And I should add, having a HUGE number of AoOs (like a moderately high DEX gives w/ CR) offers no real benefit in 99% of situations - 1 more is usually all you need.
Scent: This one seems to be over-looked by many posters here. With a decent investment in Perception, you can fairly consistently negate Invisible opponents' advantage WITHOUT magic. The main disadvantage vs. See Invisible is if they are further away than your adjacent squares, you can't make out the exact positioning, meaning you may not spot tactical situations (esp. involving multiple opponents' spacing) until you have moved close enough to be adjacent... But you can still move towards their scent square-by-square until they are adjacent.
Strength Surge: This one makes sure the Barbarian is King of Strength (well in a Tie with Clerics of STR for sure), and the fact it can apply both offensively/defensively to ALL Maneuvers is a HUGE equalizer re: Maneuvers (given the Barbarian doesn't have the Feats to take very many "Improved Manuever" Feats, a bonus to/against ALL of them is a serious deal). Mega-synergy with Knockback: With either Knockback or Improved Trip (which isn't exclusive to Barbarians), you can really achieve ~80% of what Stand Still does (i.e. another Feat that isn't needed, i.e. Fighter Feat Advantage lost).
Unexpected Strike (12th): To me, this is the king of Combat Trump Cards. AoO on Threat ENTRY opens so many possibilities. Combined with Strength Surge and Knockback (or Improved Trip) means you have HUGE possibilities at action disruption. DO NOT overlook the fact it works against 5' Steps! Knockback your 5' Stepping opponent, and they now cannot Full Attack you - If they were charging you and already had taken a full Move, guess what: NOW THEY CAN'T ATTACK YOU AT ALL. Just tell the Fighter "Sorry... You can't touch this."
Fourth... Skills? :-)
Third, their Powers seems to offer them "Trump Cards"...
A lot of their powers work once per rage, which normally equals once per encounter. Most feats work all the time. If I am limited to something once per combat I want it to be good, especially if its a class feature.
Honestly, I think the barbarian could be fine with just a little tweaking. For my thoughts on that, just check out my homebrew barbarian (http://www.pathfinderdb.com/character-options/classes/135-barbarian).
I was already using your version when I first posted, but hadn't the pleasure to congratulate its author. Good job!
I have two suggestions only:
1) I think the rage power called "Focus" should be renamed (maybe as "Rage Prowess" or "Physical Prowess" or "Ahletic Prowess").
2) Renewed vigor should be kept as in the original PFRPG, but give temporary hp only instead of heal (to make it a little bit more realistic).
My two cents.
I was already using your version when I first posted, but hadn't the pleasure to congratulate its author. Good job!
I have two suggestions only:
1) I think the rage power called "Focus" should be renamed (maybe as "Rage Prowess" or "Physical Prowess" or "Ahletic Prowess").
2) Renewed vigor should be kept as in the original PFRPG, but give temporary hp only instead of heal (to make it a little bit more realistic).
My two cents.
Wooooo~ Praise! Glee! maybe I can finally motivate myself enough to get off my kiester and finish the Bard, Cleric and Fighter homebrews I've been tinkering with forever.
Just to add something here.
Barbarians tend to have lower AC and higher HP. All kinds of math could be used to decide which is better, and for me, I think that's about dead even.
But...
Resource management.
If at the end of a fight, the cleric has to heal the fighter for 30 HP or the barbarian for 40 HP, time and time again, the cleric will run out of healing resources sooner if he has a barbarian "tanking" for him than he will if he has a fighter in the same role.
Most of this is theory. I haven't actually run any real numbers.
I did experience this very issue hundreds of times playing DDO, where a medium armored barbarian tank would result in mission failure and a heavily armored fighter tank woudl result in mission success, over and over and over. Always because healing resources ran out.
Sure, that is a MMO and not a tabletop RPG. But the class balance more or less reflects the same balance in 3.5 D&D, and I don't think much has changed, balance-wise, with Pathfinder. In fact, Pathfinder seems to favor the fighter just a bit more.
Yeah, that's not sound evidence. But it's logically clear and at least unsoundly supported by my experiences. And further supported by our Pathfinder Beta experiences, where we usually had a barbarian tank and he was a massive damage sponge, and consequently, a massive healing sponge too.
Guarded Stance/ Rolling Dodge/ Surprise Accuracy/ Powerful Blow: Due to their level-scaling, these really only come into their own at higher levels. That said, their effect clearly matches Weapon Training (but isn't limited to specific Weapon Groups), as well as compensating for the difference between Heavy/Medium Armor... Given Heavy Armor Proficiency is easily attainable (I'd recommend 1 Fighter level vs. spending a Feat for it), Barbarian AC at high levels should be HIGHER than Fighters when this is activated. I've seen criticism of the fact the AC-boosters need a Move Action to activate, but realistically, in many cases (when you expect the enemy to close anyways, when you are Readying an Action) it isn't a big deal to spare a Move Action, and with a good CON score they will last most of the average combat.
These abilities just seem too junky, and maybe worth less than a feat due to their limitations and limited use.
1. They are only usable in rage. (Not that big of a problem)
2. They are only usable once per rage.(Okay...)
3. Perpetual Small Bonus for their level. (+4 at level 18?)
4. They have a very limited effect. (Melee or Ranged, or one attack only)
Edit: 5. To make matters worse, they take swift actions, despite their small effect, which make for any possible useful combination with other rage powers often impossible.
These really seem like IMHO "Filler" powers.
Now if these abilities applied to all AC or all attacks for the round, considering the other limitations, it MIGHT have been worth it.
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I dipped. One level of Barbarian then straight Fighter. The loss of a capstone ability that I might get if I play long enough, is easily made up for by the extra class skills and +10 movement throughout my career. The Barb's bigger hit die and extra class skills more than make up for Favored Class for one level. I still get Armor Training, so I'm moving 40 in medium armor right now.
Now if these abilities applied to all AC or all attacks for the round, considering the other limitations, it MIGHT have been worth it.
Heh.. which was almost exactly the sequence of thoughts that led me to make that exact change in the homebrew. (I know, I know, I'll stop mentioning it, it just comes up in threads like this)
@Hexen: The fact Powers often have different types of limitations than Feats is exactly what I'm talking about when I say "Trump Cards... do things others can't, or... in different ways". (perhaps "Trump Card" indicates "comparative superiority" too much... don't focus on that aspect and you'd probably get more of my intent with it.) If Powers are superior in some ways, and inferior in others, I don't see a big problem.
(note: The AC bump Powers aren't limited per Rage)
Anyhow,
I have a concern with Paizo seemingly recognizing the fact there aren't enough good powers to make a signifigant variety of Barbarian builds possible (there ARE good options all the way to 20 IMHO, but not enough), but their solution is putting out more Rage Powers in the Advanced Player's Guide.
What that means is they are going down the path of 3.5 they've claimed they don't want to follow, where follow on rules books introduce power bloat. If the number of GOOD powers wasn't an issue, and they wanted to introduce more EQUAL ones on par with the original book (for more flavor options), that would be fine... But if as they admit, there is little range of "worth it" Rage Powers, and the APG will introduce many more "worth it" Powers, that introduces a power balance issue if a player does/does not have/use the APG or just the Core book.
I'm bringing this up not just to be critical, but because I think other approaches should be considered... Like actually implementing a deeper Errata for the Rage Powers than they might otherwise consider, i.e. "ramping up" powers that are below par:
The Climb/Swim Powers (while clearly destined to be more flavorful than purely competitive with Combat Powers) could EASILY allow 5' steps, giving Barbarians with them an actual combat advantage in relevant environments (as is they just make it so you don't need to invest Skill Ranks in those Skills). Swim DCs don't even scale up to really high numbers (for which a really high modifier would be needed) - so why doesn't the Power do something else, like increase the # of rounds you can hold your breath, which can help even when you're NOT swimming (i.e. Poison Gas).
If No Escape's scope was broadened it could actually be a great Power.
I agree about Powerful Blow/Surprise Accuracy, that they should either be broadened to affect ALL attacks for 1 round, or the Per/Rage should be removed.
Likewise, if Renewed Vigor was a Swift Action it hardly seems game-balance-shattering, given the Paladin's self-LoH is also a Swift (and given the Barbarian has more Swift Powers, there's actually a trade-off).
I'm sympathetic to combining Rolling Dodge/Guarded Stance, but certainly it seems reasonable to allow Barbarians with BOTH Powers to activate both with the SAME Move Action and not need to blow a Move + Standard Action.
And Terrifying Howl should really update the formula for Intimidating Glare to use BAB+STR - or change Terrifying Howl so it works on opponents NOT already Shaken... it should also benefit from CHA and any other bonuses to Intimidate (besides Ranks) like Skill Focus, or else those investments are thrown out the window/ completely non-synergetic.
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@Hexen: The fact Powers often have different types of limitations than Feats is exactly what I'm talking about when I say "Trump Cards... do things others can't, or... in different ways". (perhaps "Trump Card" indicates "comparative superiority" too much... don't focus on that aspect and you'd probably get more of my intent with it.) If Powers are superior in some ways, and inferior in others, I don't see a big problem.
(note: The AC bump Powers aren't limited per Rage)
Anyhow,
I have a concern with Paizo seemingly recognizing the fact there aren't enough good powers to make a signifigant variety of Barbarian builds possible (there ARE good options all the way to 20 IMHO, but not enough), but their solution is putting out more Rage Powers in the Advanced Player's Guide.What that means is they are going down the path of 3.5 they've claimed they don't want to follow, where follow on rules books introduce power bloat. If the number of GOOD powers wasn't an issue, and they wanted to introduce more EQUAL ones on par with the original book (for more flavor options), that would be fine... But if as they admit, there is little range of "worth it" Rage Powers, and the APG will introduce many more "worth it" Powers, that introduces a power balance issue if a player does/does not have/use the APG or just the Core book.
I'm bringing this up not just to be critical, but because I think other approaches should be considered... Like actually implementing a deeper Errata for the Rage Powers than they might otherwise consider, i.e. "ramping up" powers that are below par:
The Climb/Swim Powers (while clearly destined to be more flavorful than purely competitive with Combat Powers) could EASILY allow 5' steps, giving Barbarians with them an actual combat advantage in relevant environments (as is they just make it so you don't need to invest Skill Ranks in those Skills). Swim DCs don't even scale up to really high numbers (for which a really high modifier would be needed) - so why doesn't the Power do...
The problem with what you say, is your solution is entirely rewriting the barbarian to begin with. That presents several problems as the barbarian class is already SET.
Also the APG will of course be open content, James Jacobs has already stated this. So the Bloat won't go to the one with the deeper wallet, just the guy with more paper at the table. The only stuff they probably will NOT make open content, is the Golarian specific stuff, as that sells on its own.
I never mentioned anything about costs (of additional books), it can be as simple a matter as some people prefer NOT having to mentally juggle multiple rule books in order to play a GAME/ have fun. Others are the complete opposite of course (enjoying 'mastery' of libraries of crunch), but I think you can see how using an adjunct book to 'solve' an issue with the Core rules could create conflict between a player who prefers rules issues "solved" and groups who prefer keeping everything to Core for simplicities sake.
It's very clear changes to the first printing's text ARE being propagated. I've actually asked for clarity on Paizo's editorial policy (re: Errata/updates), but no answer has been forthcoming (other than that the topic is being discussed). My recommendation in another thread was that updates to the text be indicated in another text color on the SRD (one color for rules-neutral grammar/editing changes, another color for rules-relevant clarifications/changes).
I'd hardly call the possible changes I recommended in my last post "entirely rewriting the class" - in all cases someone with the original printing (like me) would find the updated versions practically the same "plus" extra (no entirely new powers/mechanics). And I'd say that there *IS* only so much you can do with the general material given in the Core Barbarian class.
<eek. another threadjack...>