I notice that the Grapple rules no longer state that you can't grapple a creature two sizes larger than you. Is that intentional? If so, it's an interesting idea but it might get a little silly in some cases (e.g. a halfling hog-tying a behir).
If you're good enough to overcome the size difference (and remember that bigger critters tend to have a lot of strength, which often means you're the weaker one, too), then by all means go and grapple the rune giant!
If you're good enough to overcome the size difference (and remember that bigger critters tend to have a lot of strength, which often means you're the weaker one, too), then by all means go and grapple the rune giant!
I would tend to agree with you, although tripping, bullrushing and overrunning are all limited by size (for whatever reason). Frankly, I think it's easier to imagine a halfling tripping a giant than grappling a giant, but YMMV.
That made me want to google "dinosaur wrestling":
http://www.geekologie.com/2009/11/03/dino-wrestling.jpg
http://www.the-isb.com/images/Dynamo5-DinoWrestlin.jpg
The thing that comes to mind when I think of small-vs-big wrestling is the Mickey Mouse cartoon The Brave Little Tailor (starting around the 7:30 mark, in particular).
a properly grapple optimized medium fighter at 10th level has a 35% chance to successfully grapple a brachiosaurus. that seems.... unlikely, but appears to be true by RAW.
Really? I don't have a Monster Manual so no reference to brachiosaurus stats, but assuming they are colossal (and I can't imagine they aren't), then wouldn't their strength bonus + BAB only have to be 12 more than the Fighter's strength bonus to produce that 35%? What did you calculate his Strength at, 20? 22? Even if the brachiosaurus' BAB was 0, any strength score over 47 would give less than a 35% chance of success, right? And doesn't 47 seem extremely low for the strength score of possibly the largest animal to ever walk the face of the earth?
N Gargantuan animal
Init +0; Senses low-light vision, scent; Perception +27
Defense
AC 18, touch 6, flat-footed 18 (+12 natural, –4 size)
hp 171 (18d8+90)
Fort +18, Ref +11, Will +9
Offense
Speed 30 ft.
Melee tail +22 (4d6+19)
Space 20 ft.; Reach 20 ft.
Special Attack trample (2d6+19, DC 32)
Statistics
Str 37, Dex 10, Con 21, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 10
Base Atk +13; CMB +30; CMD 40 (44 vs. trip)
I think there has been an oversight with the grappling rules btw
N Gargantuan animal
Init +0; Senses low-light vision, scent; Perception +27
Defense
AC 18, touch 6, flat-footed 18 (+12 natural, –4 size)
hp 171 (18d8+90)
Fort +18, Ref +11, Will +9
Offense
Speed 30 ft.
Melee tail +22 (4d6+19)
Space 20 ft.; Reach 20 ft.
Special Attack trample (2d6+19, DC 32)
Statistics
Str 37, Dex 10, Con 21, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 10
Base Atk +13; CMB +30; CMD 40 (44 vs. trip)I think there has been an oversight with the grappling rules btw
I agree, a medium-sized Fighter 10th (BaB +10) with Improved Grapple and Greater Grapple (CMB +4) should have a Strength score of 34 (!) (+12) to have a CMB of +26, and so a 35% chance (14+ on a d20) to grapple a creature with a CMD of 40.
A medium-sized Barbarian 10th with the same feats would 'only' need a Strength score of 30 while raging (Greater Rage comes at 11th level...), and seriously, even with a Belt of Str +6 (at 10th level ? really ???) and 2 increments to Str, he should have started with a Str 22 at 1st level...
Now, if we were speaking of 15+ level characters, now that would be another matter (but we would already be near Epic territory at that level, anyway).
A medium-sized Barbarian 10th with the same feats would 'only' need a Strength score of 30 while raging (Greater Rage comes at 11th level...), and seriously, even with a Belt of Str +6 (at 10th level ? really ???) and 2 increments to Str, he should have started with a Str 22 at 1st level...
Actually, it's a fairly easy check for a raging barbarian, assuming he uses the Strength Surge power for a whopping +10 bonus. Of course, it's fairly easy for the brachiosaurus to break out of the grapple as well.
Here's an estimate of grapple check numbers by level that I did a few months ago:
Barbarian, Fighter and Druid grapplers, levels 9-14
I think there has been an oversight with the grappling rules btw
Well obviously a case like this represents an error in the rules. A medium sized character would be literally incapable of grappling a brachiosaurus because they would not be able to reach two different limbs or body parts, which physics demands as a prerequisite to "grappling". If you wrap a rubber band around your wrist, it isn't "grappling" you no matter how strong it is. It has to be able to reach something else to which it can bind your wrist.
I think there has been an oversight with the grappling rules btwWell obviously a case like this represents an error in the rules. A medium sized character would be literally incapable of grappling a brachiosaurus because they would not be able to reach two different limbs or body parts, which physics demands as a prerequisite to "grappling". If you wrap a rubber band around your wrist, it isn't "grappling" you no matter how strong it is. It has to be able to reach something else to which it can bind your wrist.
I could imagine something crazy like grabbing the dinosaur's tail and tying it around its neck, for instance. That sounds kind of cool to me. :-)
I agree that it's probably an oversight, though.
I think there has been an oversight with the grappling rules btwWell obviously a case like this represents an error in the rules. A medium sized character would be literally incapable of grappling a brachiosaurus because they would not be able to reach two different limbs or body parts, which physics demands as a prerequisite to "grappling". If you wrap a rubber band around your wrist, it isn't "grappling" you no matter how strong it is. It has to be able to reach something else to which it can bind your wrist.
Well, I'm not an expert in hand to hand, but there are moves that allow you to immobilize someone just twisting their arm behind their back. Cops do it all the time to cuff people.
That counts not only as a grapple but as pinning also. And they only need one point of contact; the wrist.I saw once a very good rule of thumb here in the forums, can't remember who said it:
"Don't say it's impossible, just set the difficulty."
Well, I'm not an expert in hand to hand, but there are moves that allow you to immobilize someone just twisting their arm behind their back. Cops do it all the time to cuff people.
That counts not only as a grapple but as pinning also. And they only need one point of contact; the wrist.
Very good point. Though it does technically still require two points of "contact" (both sides of the wrist, in order to effect the twisting), it would greatly reduce the reach required. The question then is what kind of circumference would the limbs of a brachiosaurus have, and would a medium size person be able to actually grip one?
I saw once a very good rule of thumb here in the forums, can't remember who said it:
"Don't say it's impossible, just set the difficulty."
Perhaps a suitable rule of thumb, but there's no appropriate DC for making 2+2=5. Some things are impossible by virtue of being beyond the realm of reality; that's what these games are all about. However, other things are impossible because in order for them to be true the fundamental ground rules of the reality (real or imagined) cease to function.
there's no appropriate DC for making 2+2=5.
There is a way, bluff check -20 vs sense motive. ;)
Sorry, couldn't resist.
there's no appropriate DC for making 2+2=5.There is a way, bluff check -20 vs sense motive. ;)
Sorry, couldn't resist.
Heh. Maybe at -30 against mathematicians. Or +10 if they are Chaos Theory types.<G>
My friend has made a 12th level monk with a 30 cmb and a 56 cmd and this allowed him to hog tie a collosal dragon, this makes no sense, can somewell tell me the actual science behind doing this.
Gladly, but first you have to supply me with a colossal dragon so I can record an accurate account of its physiology.
My friend has made a 12th level monk with a 30 cmb and a 56 cmd and this allowed him to hog tie a collosal dragon, this makes no sense, can somewell tell me the actual science behind doing this.
See my above link to "The Brave Little Tailor". :-)
P.S. I forgot that I started this thread.
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Though it may seem silly to grapple such large creatures, as others have said it is not entirely impossible to control someone with a relatively small part of their body (especially when you include the idea of pressure points or some-such). Couple that with the ludicrousness of the modifier you'd need in the first place, and I can see it as being just fine. I mean, at the same levels that the characters can grapple colossal creatures, they can also do things like jump 20ft from a stand-still, hide from people who are staring right at them with absolutely no cover of any form, and other similar forms of ludicrousness.
Characters that are level 10+ are supposed to be legends (at level 11+ their average scuffle shows up on Legend Lore). Let them play the part. Even if the lack of size limit *was* an oversight, I'm okay with it being missing. In fact, I'd prefer if the limit was removed from other maneuvers as well. I'd love to see a raging barbarian slam into a dragon with so much force that the dragon is actually forced back a few feet.