In the last gaming session I had with my players on Saturday, they were starting the assault on Thistletop. One of the things that popped up as we were playing was the drowning rule, or more specifically how long they can hold their breath. Under the swim skill it states that when underwater a player can hold their breath for Con rounds before starting to drown. Meanwhile under underwater hazards, which also has the rules for drowning (kinda redundant if you ask me), holding your breath is listed as 2xCon rounds. Now this wasn't really necessary as my players' (yes, that is plural!) weren't underwater anywhere near that long, but still confused the heck out of us.
I have since tried to see if anyone had asked about this on the boards, but only came across a brief thread from back in 2004 that James Jacobs answered as his preference being the first option, as listed under the swim skill description. But certainly nothing official. Care to make it official now James? What have other DMs done for this problem?
In the last gaming session I had with my players on Saturday, they were starting the assault on Thistletop. One of the things that popped up as we were playing was the drowning rule, or more specifically how long they can hold their breath. Under the swim skill it states that when underwater a player can hold their breath for Con rounds before starting to drown. Meanwhile under underwater hazards, which also has the rules for drowning (kinda redundant if you ask me), holding your breath is listed as 2xCon rounds. Now this wasn't really necessary as my players' (yes, that is plural!) weren't underwater anywhere near that long, but still confused the heck out of us.
I have since tried to see if anyone had asked about this on the boards, but only came across a brief thread from back in 2004 that James Jacobs answered as his preference being the first option, as listed under the swim skill description. But certainly nothing official. Care to make it official now James? What have other DMs done for this problem?
Seems pretty straightforward to me.
When you are swimming, you are being very active and using more oxygen. Therefore you start drowning after CON rounds while swimming.
If you are just holding your breath underwater, you aren't using as much oxygen, so you can hold it for twice as long.
So, if the character had a con of 15, they could :
Swim down into a pond for 3 rounds. (Uses 3 con)
Hold their breath for 20 rounds. (Uses 10 con)
Swim back up for 2 rounds (easier to swim up than down, buoyancy, uses 2 con).
Total Con used : 15, no drowning check.
The pure holding counts as 1 pt of con per 2 rounds, the swimming as 1 pt of con per round
It doesn't answer your question officially, but here's one angle:
The d20 SRD says 2xCON in both places, Swim Skill and Drowning rules. So at least the SRD is clear on their intent.
Now it either means the Paizo guys meant to change it to 1xCON and only fixed it in one place, or they didn't mean to change it and 1xCON is a typo in the book.
I know, that's no answer.
But if we don't get anything official, (meaning I have no idea of Paizo's intended rule for Pathfinder), my take as a DM would be I have 3 places saying 2xCON and only 1 place that says 1xCON, so majority rules.
On the other hand, I have never liked this rule, and I can see why James favors 1xCON.
Basically, the SRD version lets an ordinary average man hold his breath for 20 rounds, and maybe a few more with good rolls. That's over 3.5 minutes for an average guy with no Swim skill. That's actually a long time.
Try it. Fill your tub, set a timer, and hold your head under water. No, don't drown. And don't try to go 3.5 minutes. Just go as long as you can safely and comfortably go. Check your timer. It might feel like it was 3.5 minutes, but I bet it's much shorter than that. Unless, of course, you're a robust athelete or a skilled swimmer, both of which makes you above average by SRD terms.
James' version seems closer to what I think ordinary commoners should be able to achieve with no training or practice at it.
So, back to the drawing board. Official answer or DM fiat...
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Well I do have fond memories of the days of the Genesis, Saturn and Dreamcast, I don't know if SEGA is in the right part of it's existence to get involved with the whole console war again.
I would like to see them do more with their older properties personally too, what's been trickling out on the down-loadable content hasn't been enough.
Would like to see a return to cartridges though.
MDT - Interesting take on it. Haden't looked at it that way before. Possibly the way that both entries are worded is what is causing the confusion. So your take on it is the base is 2xCon rounds, doing nothing but float and hold your breath costs 1 round, making a free or move action costs 2 rounds (according to swim skill), and making a standard or full action costs 4 rounds. Yeah, I could see that.
DM Blake - I think you've been up to late again, my carapace-shelled friend, your mad-math skills are starting to slip. You'd need an 18 Con minimum to reach 3.5 minutes. A Con of 10 would leave you with 2 minutes max at 2xCon rounds (2 x 10 x 6 seconds = 120 seconds). MDT might have the right of it. If I don't get an official answer, I will probably go with his. It's just the way it's written that is throwing me off.
Morgen - Interesting point, however, uhhh, wrong thread mate.
DM Blake - I think you've been up to late again, my carapace-shelled friend, your mad-math skills are starting to slip. You'd need an 18 Con minimum to reach 3.5 minutes. A Con of 10 would leave you with 2 minutes max at 2xCon rounds (2 x 10 x 6 seconds = 120 seconds).
I think he's referring to making Con checks after that to continue holding your breath, but you're right, I think he meant 2.5 minutes, or was thinking of 15 Con. Either way, it's a longgg time. I practiced as a kid and getting to 1.5 was hard.
DM Blake - I think you've been up to late again, my carapace-shelled friend, your mad-math skills are starting to slip. You'd need an 18 Con minimum to reach 3.5 minutes. A Con of 10 would leave you with 2 minutes max at 2xCon rounds (2 x 10 x 6 seconds = 120 seconds).I think he's referring to making Con checks after that to continue holding your breath, but you're right, I think he meant 2.5 minutes, or was thinking of 15 Con. Either way, it's a longgg time. I practiced as a kid and getting to 1.5 was hard.
Me too.
But then again, kids have very low lung capacity. Adult pearl divers in asia routinely do 5 minutes, while swimming down to harvest the oysters. So, that's with training and in good health (and adult). At one point in college I could do 2 minutes 40 seconds (before I tore my lungs up with pneumonia).
Either way, 2xCON for just sitting there holding ones breath, and CON for swimming actively is a reasonable approximation. As reasonable as any of the other rules I've seen over the years in various RPG's.
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Actually the PHB and DMG were always in conflict. According to the rule for primary sources the DMG takes precedence as it has the rules for drowing and suffocating. So as the SRD states it's con x2.
I however found that to be too trivial for dramatic underwater fights where water breathing or similar magics weren't prepared. Like a Trapped room filled with skeletons that is flooding. Even Joe Commoner with 10 Con can fight for a whole minute without checking for drowning. Most encounters average 3 to 5 rounds tops. Con x 2 just kills that suspense. So I use Con rounds -1 per full round/standard action taken.
--Vrock Lobster!
Drowning seems to remain a real danger. I just lost a dwarven ranger at last week's game. He got to be underwater for 14 rounds, equal to his Con score.
First round, swam down 10 feet with a DC 15 swim check.
Second round, swam down to 20 feet with a DC 15 swim check.
12 following rounds: managed to succeed at *no* DC 15 swim checks. Ran out of air. Failed his first Con roll, went unconscious, corpse drifted out to sea.
So, swimming means death!
(A few disclaimers: the only other party member that knew he was underwater was called away and took his dangling rope with him, so there was no one around to help my poor ranger!)