I have a player interested in playing a Paladin Hellknight in our upcoming campaign. I think paladins in the Hellknight orders are mentioned in the Player’s Guide, but I’m just wondering how the heck a paladin can be part of such an order and maintain his paladinhood. I mean even if the order is technically Lawful Neutral he would be associating with Lawful Evil folks on such a regular basis, and potentially being ordered around by LE superiors. How does that jive with the requirement on Paladins to avoid associations with Evil beings?
My player is very excited about the idea and the RP potential, but I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around the particulars.
I'm not too familier with hellknight fluff, though I would say that if the paladin's immediate superiors are evil, then being a paladin within the order would definately be out.
The paladin would be knowingly serving beings of evil who could potentially be using the order to fulfill their own ends.
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If you take a stringent interpretation of the D&D alignment system, one that assumes all evil characters are villains and all good characters are heroes, I wouldn't suggest this. Lots of D&D players have some very firmly set beliefs about what alignment means in D&D-land, hence the endless debates about the alignments of famous characters or "What's Your Alignment" tests. If this was a cut and dry system with but a single interpretation, though, or if the nine alignments boiled down to simply nine personality types, there wouldn't be such constant discussions.
All of the same can also be said of the paladin's code - two sentences in the PH which see more debate than I can imagine they were ever given during their design.
So already, if the idea of a LG Hellknight falls outside your views on how you run alignment or the paladin's code in your game, I wouldn't allow it.
That being said, Hellknights were created to fall into a uncomfortable, gray moral area. At their core, the mandate of the Hellknights is to spread law and justice, to quell threats against civilization, and discipline themselves as paragons of absolute order. All of this meshes well with the sensibilities of paladins. How they get there, however, might raise some paladins eyebrows. Hellknights model their hierarchy off the unquestioning discipline and severity of the multiverse's most effective military order: Hell. Their signifiers summon the denizens of Hell to battle against, causing every armiger to face devils as part of their training, with the reasoning that if one faces and defeats the warriors of the Pit, what fear can the soldiers of the mortal world hold? They do not worship Hell, Asmodeus, the archfiends, or any other infernal nobility - such are merely effective tools to a absolute end. Hellknights don't believe in torture and undo suffering, but they hold mercy as a weakness and exact law for the betterment of all, not based on the circumstances of an individual. No Hellknight seeks the death of innocents (though their feelings on the acceptability of such casualties might differentiate those of varying alignments within the orders), and the LG members of the group hold a valued place in curbing the zealotry of some of the group's more extremist and tenacious members. Certain orders also hold greater tendencies toward certain alignments, with the Order of the Scourge trending more toward LG while the Order of the God Claw leans
more toward LE - fortunately, the various orders are largely autonomous. In each group, though, Hellknights who merely want to help their fellow man and Hellknights who wish to mercilessly enforce the rule or law exist, and both types aid in the goals of the greater order while being ruled over by the group's own vast code of order.
So, with all this in mind. Paladins can certainly fit into an order that seeks to improve the world for civilized people, especially when such an order presents greater opportunities and effectiveness - to one's mind - than a knight questing solo. (Even in the real world, the just more often seek out police or military training than going vigilante - while others just do it for a paycheck or other person reasons.) The laws and disciplines of the Hellknight orders also circumscribe against nearly anything morally questionable or flagrantly evil - with the exception of summoning devils, which is done with cause. In nearly every case with the Hellknights, the ends justify the means, and the means are severe, but just.
Were a LG and LE Hellknight to be assigned together, both must obey the same code of orders, and to violate it would mean expulsion from the group - for either member. If their behavior is the same, and their goals are the same, what's to differentiate between their alignment besides the results of a detect alignment spell? And if that's all that differs, is the result of that one spell reason for a good character to abandon a group whose goals parallel their own and whose resources and ability to improve the world wildly exceed theirs?
Should Sir Gawain abandon Aurthur's Camelot because Sir Lancelot is a lech? Or does he stand to do greater good with his brothers in arms?
Franky, I wonder why I don't more often see the opposite of this question when it comes to the Hellknights. Why would a LE character ever join?
So, again, if you don't think there can be such thing as a good Hellknight, that's cool. But if you do, that's cool too.
I'd also point you toward the upcoming, free Council of Thieves Players Guide and Pathfinder #27 for way more details on Hellknights.
Some really great and helpful fluff
Thanks! I was hoping for such an explanation. I think my conception of what exactly the various orders of Hellknights did didn't quite line up with what you have explained. I have always preferred a looser interpretation of Alignment - I was just having a hard time justifying a paladin's involvement with an organization that trucks with devils. I see now that my conception was a bit too narrow.
I will have a discussion with my player and see what sticks.
i am sure my cleric will still have issues with certain paralictor...
That's awesome. And kind of the point. I really like the idea of "villains" that want the same thing as you. Or "villains" who are serving what many consider a positive goal, but just not in a way most heroes would agree with.
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I agree Wes, and certainly that is the issue, both despice how the other acts, she is merciful, the paralictor is cruel and harsh, she can't go openly against him because... well HE is part of the Law, and he can't nail something to specific on her, but has actually relished torturing her a bit after some infunded charges :P
Thanks! I was hoping for such an explanation. I think my conception of what exactly the various orders of Hellknights did didn't quite line up with what you have explained. I have always preferred a looser interpretation of Alignment - I was just having a hard time justifying a paladin's involvement with an organization that trucks with devils. I see now that my conception was a bit too narrow.I will have a discussion with my player and see what sticks.
To be fair, if they work alongside devils then even with a loose alignment system paladin's still should not work with them.
It would like a druid working for a company which destorys natural land to expand cities. While it might be considered evil for the druid to outright attack the group and attempt to destroy them, helping them do it is another matter.
Remember just how black and white alignment is in D'n'D. If something's evil, it's evil, not "Neutral but does the occasional evil acts due to a traumatic past".
Remember just how black and white alignment is in D'n'D...
I'm not going to get into a discussion of the role of the D&D alignment system here, nor the question of whether it is meant to epotimize all facets of personality and morality into nine simple compartments.
Actually, I'm never going to get into that discussion anywhere, because the ways people play alignment vary wildly, the actual "rules" are vague enough to be nearly non-existent when compared to the standardization and presentation of actual game rules, and 35 years of tradition in a thousand-thousand different games means that passions run deep in about as many different directions.
Rather, like I said, if the interpretation above doesn't work with your view of the D&D alignment system, that's fine, I know it won't for many people. But it will for many GMs and that doesn't make it rules-breaking bad-fun. Remember, from the PH, "Alignment is a tool for developing your character's identity. It is not a straightjacket for restricting your character."
Also, just to clarify, the Hellknights don't work with devils anymore than real-world scientists "work with" nuclear energy. In both cases, the dangerous element is a tool with the power for untold destruction, but handled properly, they can both be turned to a knowledgeable wielder's greater purpose.
I agree Wes, and certainly that is the issue, both despice how the other acts, she is merciful, the paralictor is cruel and harsh, she can't go openly against him because... well HE is part of the Law, and he can't nail something to specific on her, but has actually relished torturing her a bit after some infunded charges :P
Again, perfect, awesome. Is the paralictor a player or NPC?
I'm not trying to argue with you, and not just because I agree with your stance on interpreting alignment. But this...
Remember, from the PH, "Alignment is a tool for developing your character's identity. It is not a straightjacket for restricting your character."
If that were true, there wouldn't be alignment restrictions on classes and PrCs, nor magic items and spells... (I'm including Cleric alignment under spells.)
Also, just to clarify, the Hellknights don't work with devils anymore than real-world scientists "work with" nuclear energy. In both cases, the dangerous element is a tool with the power for untold destruction, but handled properly, they can both be turned to a knowledgeable wielder's greater purpose.
I'd like to see a real-life scientist make sweet, sweet love to nuclear energy and produce a half-nuclear energy. That'd be totally awesome! :-)
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I agree Wes, and certainly that is the issue, both despice how the other acts, she is merciful, the paralictor is cruel and harsh, she can't go openly against him because... well HE is part of the Law, and he can't nail something to specific on her, but has actually relished torturing her a bit after some infunded charges :PAgain, perfect, awesome. Is the paralictor a player or NPC?
NPC, we have few players in that story, but aye it would have been cool to have a PC in that area...
anyway the paralictor was furious because he was unable to break her, Endurance and decent fortitude helped her outlast them until she was rescued by legal means (basically there was no proof against her)
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Also, just to clarify, the Hellknights don't work with devils anymore than real-world scientists "work with" nuclear energy. In both cases, the dangerous element is a tool with the power for untold destruction, but handled properly, they can both be turned to a knowledgeable wielder's greater purpose.I'd like to see a real-life scientist make sweet, sweet love to nuclear energy and produce a half-nuclear energy. That'd be totally awesome! :-)
Fair enough but you clear up the mess afterwards (and by god will there be a mess)
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I'm not trying to argue with you, and not just because I agree with your stance on interpreting alignment. But this...
Remember, from the PH, "Alignment is a tool for developing your character's identity. It is not a straightjacket for restricting your character."If that were true, there wouldn't be alignment restrictions on classes and PrCs, nor magic items and spells... (I'm including Cleric alignment under spells.)
still... do you know a better way to learn to fight a devil... than fighting them?
meaning a controlled environment to fight this creatures is the best you have to learn to fight them and survive...
mmm would be interesting to learn if there are Hellknights serving Iomedae within Cheliax borders... or if eevryone of them went to the Worldwound
If that were true, there wouldn't be alignment restrictions on classes and PrCs, nor magic items and spells... (I'm including Cleric alignment under spells.)
I don't know what else to add to this. That quote is taken from one of the first sentences of alignment's actual description from the Player's Handbook. You're right to point out that alignment makes a rocky pillar for supporting rules, and I'd agree. Yet there is a value to making broad generalizations about what is "good" and "lawful" and "neutral" when dealing with game terms and with creatures and worlds (unlike ours) that employ such absolutes. But you're going to see a lot of circular debate, contradictory evidence, and no hard answers when it comes to a discussion of alignment as a game term verses alignment as a characterization tool.
Ultimately, some GMs handle it one way. Some GMs handle it another. Neither is wrong, and everybody gets to play out their take on it in their game as they like.
Again again. If you handle it one way, that's cool. If you handle it another, that's cool too.
Ultimately, though, lets keep this discussion about Hellknights. If anyone wants to talk about interpretations of the alignment system, I'm sure we can find a running thread with a few dozens posts to chime in on.
I'd like to see a real-life scientist make sweet, sweet love to nuclear energy and produce a half-nuclear energy. That'd be totally awesome! :-)
Gross. Though my friend Stas's parents could tell you some really interesting stories about living in Southern Poland in the mid 80s and buying cheap Russian eggs...
still... do you know a better way to learn to fight a devil... than fighting them?
meaning a controlled environment to fight this creatures is the best you have to learn to fight them and survive...
Again, exactly, it sounds you have exactly the angle I'm going for on this.
mmm would be interesting to learn if there are Hellknights serving Iomedae within Cheliax borders... or if eevryone of them went to the Worldwound
There are. At the very least, the Order of the God Claw worships a strange pantheon with LN interpretations of Iomedae and other deities. It's a weird arrangement, but you can read a bit more about them in the campaign setting and later in PF#27.
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There are. At the very least, the Order of the God Claw worships a strange pantheon with LN interpretations of Iomedae and other deities. It's a weird arrangement, but you can read a bit more about them in the campaign setting and later in PF#27.
that means October or November, right?
damn, well 1st Iomedae in #26 :D
Because I roll old school this makes me think Knight Protectors of the Great Kingdom. The most famous and most ancient order of knights in the Greyhawk world. They were made up of followers of two different dieties, brother dieties who hated each other. One Hextor, LE, and the other Heironeous, LG (called the Arch-Paladin). It managed to keep it together for a long long time before the kingdom started breaking up and then it was betrayed by a Paladin actually, a fallen one the first Death Knight (long before Lord Soth actually) who hunted it's members down and who was in turn hunted by it's members until few remained. Last I read the order still exists but it is a shadow of it's former self and pretty much now LN with little to no religious connections.
The cause that kept it all together was protecting civilization and keeping it safe from the chaos of disorder. I would assume the same is true of the Hellknights. They really seem to be very much like the Knight Protectors, a PrC that might fit them very well actually.
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Franky, I wonder why I don't more often see the opposite of this question when it comes to the Hellknights. Why would a LE character ever join?
In my home game we added a bit more possibility to the different alignment descriptions. With Lawful Evil we have "the Lawyer" and "the Black Knight" as examples. While the Lawyer attempts to twist the law to their own ends, the Black Knight lives by a strict code of ethics, however, this code is about law and honor. There is little room for mercy in their brutal path.
Oddly enough, we've used that for a while, and it fits right in with the darker Hellknight orders.
Because I roll old school this makes me think Knight Protectors of the Great Kingdom.
Cool cool! I've never been super well versed when it comes to Greyhawk, but you're right, these guys do sound similar. I'll have to pick some brains around here and check these guys out!
In my home game we added a bit more possibility to the different alignment descriptions. With Lawful Evil we have "the Lawyer" and "the Black Knight" as examples. While the Lawyer attempts to twist the law to their own ends, the Black Knight lives by a strict code of ethics, however, this code is about law and honor. There is little room for mercy in their brutal path.
Oddly enough, we've used that for a while, and it fits right in with the darker Hellknight orders.
Perfect! I remember the old, blue 2nd edition Creative Campagining... or was it The Complete Villain's Handbook... had a very cool discussion of alignment along this line. I think it was the latter, as now that I'm thinking about it, I believe it was descriptions of villains of every alignment. Still, very cool, and always made me think that if you can have bad guys of good alignments, why can't you have good guys of evil alignments? I've always found those morally shady areas and characters most interesting.
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that means October or November, right?
damn, well 1st Iomedae in #26 :D
Yup. Here's the hardcore law lineup:
Council of Thieves Player's Guide in August.
Princes of Darkness: Book of the Damned Volume #1 in August.
Iomedae, Pathfinder #26 in September.
Hellknights, Pathfinder #27 in October.
Hellknight Keeps, Pathfinder #28 in November.
Asmodeus, Pathfinder #29 in December.
Mammon, Pathfinder #30 in January.
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Here's the hardcore law lineup:
Council of Thieves Player's Guide in August.
Princes of Darkness: Book of the Damned Volume #1 in August.
Iomedae, Pathfinder #26 in September.
Hellknights, Pathfinder #27 in October.
Hellknight Keeps, Pathfinder #28 in November.
Asmodeus, Pathfinder #29 in December.
Mammon, Pathfinder #30 in January.
cool, thanks... and now I realize... August would be a pretty expensive month :P
I suppose Pathfinder #25 would have information on Westcrown, right?
I suppose Pathfinder #25 would have information on Westcrown, right?
A huge and damn awesome Westcrown article by Steven Schend, yup. And it goes to the printer this Monday, come Hell or highwater... so that's what my day looks like.
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Perfect! I remember the old, blue 2nd edition Creative Campagining... or was it The Complete Villain's Handbook... had a very cool discussion of alignment along this line. I think it was the latter, as now that I'm thinking about it, I believe it was descriptions of villains of every alignment. Still, very cool, and always made me think that if you can have bad guys of good alignments, why can't you have good guys of evil alignments? I've always found those morally shady areas and characters most interesting.
Heh, actually, I owned both of those. A lot of my groups alignment system is based on those two books. The funny part is when we have a new player who says, "What alignment can I be?"
My immediate response is typically either, "I don't know, what alignment can you be?" or "Why are you asking me, I don't care what your alignment is" ;)
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This whole debate is why whenever I talk to paladin players I make it quite clear that the "code" written in the book for paladins is a guideline. And that paladin players do this incredibly reasonable thing that no one ever seems to do "TALK WITH YOUR F$%#ING DM AND MAKE A CODE THAT YOU HAVE TO FOLLOW THAT FITS THE CHARACTER YOU'RE DESIGNING." That's not to say create a code that's so loose your character doesn't ever risk violating it. Have a strict code by all means, but not every code has to have that stupid Can't associate with evil characters clause. Hell My paladin could associate with evil characters so long as he felt they were redeemable, if he felt they were beyond redemption, then he couldn't associate with them. But my paladin couldn't flank or gang up on any non-monster foe, which could often leave him one-on-one with enemies much more powerful than him.
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Perfect! I remember the old, blue 2nd edition Creative Campagining... or was it The Complete Villain's Handbook... had a very cool discussion of alignment along this line. I think it was the latter, as now that I'm thinking about it, I believe it was descriptions of villains of every alignment. Still, very cool, and always made me think that if you can have bad guys of good alignments, why can't you have good guys of evil alignments? I've always found those morally shady areas and characters most interesting.Heh, actually, I owned both of those. A lot of my groups alignment system is based on those two books. The funny part is when we have a new player who says, "What alignment can I be?"
My immediate response is typically either, "I don't know, what alignment can you be?" or "Why are you asking me, I don't care what your alignment is" ;)
I usually get asked "am I allowed to play an evil character?"
My response is always yes but are you familiar with belkar from OotS that's the kind of evil I expect, not necessarily his chaotic behavior, but rather the fact that his being evil doesn't lead to killing players in their sleep or TPKs. Player vs. Player conflict is fine, but if you notice it's antagonistic, not I draw my knife and stab him.
I was with a group where I got to create a tenth level character, so I made a character that was supposed to be myself, and then took leadership and my cohort was my characters wife so I made her my wife's first character. My wife had a great character who had an evil allignment, she started off nuetral, but after cutting down more than one enemy that had surrendered for no better reason than "I still have more attacks in the round." or "but he hit me 3 rounds ago" I told her her allignment shifted to nuetral evil. For the rest of the game she kept trying to behave in a manner that would get her back to being true nuetral, but then something would piss her off, and she'd slip back into her evil habits. It was a great character that I was very familiar with. So then we go into combat and the BBEG cast blasphemy or somesuch spell, every PC is stunned or F-d up, and I'm happy because hey, here's her chance to shine and take down the bbeg, the DM asks why she isn't affected and I say, because she's evil. "Oh we don't allow evil characters in our games because if you're roleplaying evil properly and you have a good character then it should always wind up being PvP". A huge debate results where they tell me well I can roleplay her the exact same way, but that her alignment is nuetral. WTF if she's the same damn character why does it matter if she's got evil or nuetral written on her character sheet. One of the most stupidly annoying experiences I've ever had with a gaming group.
I suppose Pathfinder #25 would have information on Westcrown, right?A huge and damn awesome Westcrown article by Steven Schend, yup. And it goes to the printer this Monday, come Hell or highwater... so that's what my day looks like.
By Steven Schend!!!!!!??????? Awesome! I was just looking over just how many awesome 2nd edition Forgotten Realms products that he was chief author of and had been wondering what he was up to.
Here's to fortunate chance!
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Perfect! I remember the old, blue 2nd edition Creative Campagining... or was it The Complete Villain's Handbook... had a very cool discussion of alignment along this line. I think it was the latter, as now that I'm thinking about it, I believe it was descriptions of villains of every alignment. Still, very cool, and always made me think that if you can have bad guys of good alignments, why can't you have good guys of evil alignments? I've always found those morally shady areas and characters most interesting.Heh, actually, I owned both of those. A lot of my groups alignment system is based on those two books. The funny part is when we have a new player who says, "What alignment can I be?"
My immediate response is typically either, "I don't know, what alignment can you be?" or "Why are you asking me, I don't care what your alignment is" ;)I usually get asked "am I allowed to play an evil character?"
My response is always yes but are you familiar with belkar from OotS that's the kind of evil I expect, not necessarily his chaotic behavior, but rather the fact that his being evil doesn't lead to killing players in their sleep or TPKs. Player vs. Player conflict is fine, but if you notice it's antagonistic, not I draw my knife and stab him.
<really funny story snipped>
Sounds like the problem I had playing Shadrach. DM let me play a LE character, essentially 'Matthew with all the safeties off'. Very honourable, but very driven. Not a 'torture kittens for fun' evil but a 'hurt me and I will hunt you down, and after I kill your family, ruin your name, take everything you've ever loved, and when you end up sobbing for death from my hands, I'll finally grant it.' evil. No one would have realized he was Lawful Evil unless they looked at his sheet, because he gave to charities, started an orphanage, and was good friends with the NG cleric of St Cuthbert. Indeed, it was the CN characters who were doing most of the PVP, which of course got them on Shad's bad side. One of the plans I got to execute would have resulted in the rogue dying in a collapsing dimensional rift, but the DM fudged things, he's allergic to PC death.
After Dorothy's death we stopped playing them (too painful to go on) and Jeff regaled us with the elaborate plan they'd plotted against Shadrach and Seyla (the above mentioned cleric), certain that we'd not see them coming. His jaw hit the floor when the DM told him the simple but effective plans (plural) Shad had set in motion. He finally said 'We didn't stand a chance, did we?'.
And the DM loved it because we kept him busy with story ideas *laugh*
Edit: Forgot my point. The irony is that it was the LE character that was the stabalizing influence. I'd much rather have a LE character than a CN one.
After all the great ideas/advice in this forum entry, it looks like my player is going to go with the Hellknight Paladin - he's pretty stoked.
Aside from the forthcoming write ups in Council of Thieves, where has there been information published on Hellknights? I can only find four orders - Order of the Nail, Order of the Wrack, Order of the Scourge, and Order of the God Claw (and the last two are just for Mr. Schnider's post above). Once I get the write up later in the year, I'll be sure to show it to my player, but anything we can use now to flesh out his character is very appreciated.
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After all the great ideas/advice in this forum entry, it looks like my player is going to go with the Hellknight Paladin - he's pretty stoked.
Aside from the forthcoming write ups in Council of Thieves, where has there been information published on Hellknights? I can only find four orders - Order of the Nail, Order of the Wrack, Order of the Scourge, and Order of the God Claw (and the last two are just for Mr. Schnider's post above). Once I get the write up later in the year, I'll be sure to show it to my player, but anything we can use now to flesh out his character is very appreciated.
AP #2 Skinsaw Murders has some information on the Order of the Nail that is posted in Varisia, between Korvosa and Magnimar... I don't rememebr if something is mentioned actually in Curse of the Crimson throne, but the Campaign Setting has a Prestigue Class and information in the organiztion if you want to check it.
Aside from the forthcoming write ups in Council of Thieves, where has there been information published on Hellknights?
The big source is in the Pathfinder Campaign Setting. There's at least a half dozen mentioned in there with more implied.
The Hellknight NPCs in my RotRL campaign (the PCs tangled with them in Magnimar) are build using the Paladin of Tyranny class variant from Unearthed Arcana.
I have a squad of those, too. Anyone need stat blocks?
"TALK WITH YOUR F$%#ING DM AND MAKE A CODE THAT YOU HAVE TO FOLLOW THAT FITS THE CHARACTER YOU'RE DESIGNING."
I think that I'm going to cut out this quote and glue it into my book.
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"TALK WITH YOUR F$%#ING DM AND MAKE A CODE THAT YOU HAVE TO FOLLOW THAT FITS THE CHARACTER YOU'RE DESIGNING."I think that I'm going to cut out this quote and glue it into my book.
Please do, thanks for letting me know you like it :D. Heck, I know it's too late now, but if nothing else I hope paizo does something similar for the paladin entry in the PFRPG. Right before they list the code and when they show the code, they have the word **SAMPLE** above it.
It was already mentioned, but: LE? Paladin of Tyranny, problem solved.
The problem with paladins and paladins of tyranny is that they focus so much on good and evil. A variant that focuses on smititing chaos would be useful. Not that hard to create, obviously.
