This will be interesting.
Summary for non DDI-subs. Pick two classes, get average of HP, union of weapon profs, intersection of armor profs, three skills from limited class list, limited version of class features from each class. Pick at least one power from each class as you level up. Take a feat to gain a full fledged version of a class feature.
Pretty interesting, I think!
This will be interesting.Summary for non DDI-subs. Pick two classes, get average of HP, union of weapon profs, intersection of armor profs, three skills from limited class list, limited version of class features from each class. Pick at least one power from each class as you level up. Take a feat to gain a full fledged version of a class feature.
Pretty interesting, I think!
How is it determined what class features you get from each class?
Is there a list of things stating "Wizard gives you implements, cantrips, Ritual Caster, and ability to use the implement mastery power once per day" or "Cleric gives you implements, channel divinity powers once per day, and Healer's lore."
Or is it a list of conversions one can apply to any class without it being in the Hybrid Class description?
This will be interesting.Summary for non DDI-subs. Pick two classes, get average of HP, union of weapon profs, intersection of armor profs, three skills from limited class list, limited version of class features from each class. Pick at least one power from each class as you level up. Take a feat to gain a full fledged version of a class feature.
Pretty interesting, I think!
How is it determined what class features you get from each class?
Is there a list of things stating "Wizard gives you implements, cantrips, Ritual Caster, and ability to use the implement mastery power once per day" or "Cleric gives you implements, channel divinity powers once per day, and Healer's lore."
Or is it a list of conversions one can apply to any class without it being in the Hybrid Class description?
List. Wizards, frex, give Cantrips. Implements, btw, are included in the union of weapon profs. You can use the implement from any class you belong to for all implement powers. Clerics give Healer's Lore and Healing Word, but at only once/encounter.
The article has hybrid write-ups for every class in the PHB I and the swordmage, although it seems easy to make hybrid classes for most of the ones in PHB II.
The hybrid class feature feat is brilliant. The versatility that feat gives you really makes this article for me. And note, since it's a feat, it can be retrained; you can now retrain entire class features.
List. Wizards, frex, give Cantrips. Implements, btw, are included in the union of weapon profs. You can use the implement from any class you belong to for all implement powers. Clerics give Healer's Lore and Healing Word, but at only once/encounter.
The article has hybrid write-ups for every class in the PHB I and the swordmage, although it seems easy to make hybrid classes for most of the ones in PHB II.
Thank you.
Thank you.List. Wizards, frex, give Cantrips. Implements, btw, are included in the union of weapon profs. You can use the implement from any class you belong to for all implement powers. Clerics give Healer's Lore and Healing Word, but at only once/encounter.
The article has hybrid write-ups for every class in the PHB I and the swordmage, although it seems easy to make hybrid classes for most of the ones in PHB II.
Welcome. :)
I imagine that such a concept will lead to new combinations which will once again lead to extreme min/max'ers who debunk the system. That said, I like this system more than the multiclass system cause it seems to lead toward more versatility. I'm willing accept a little unbalance for versatility, particularly since the use of roles still gives everyone the feeling they matter.
And I'm happy they are giving it several months for playtesting from the general public. That should help keep things balanced to some extent.
Seems pretty interesting to me. I like that they seem to be ramping up the character creation complication level over time while obviously trying to limit the power creep that can come with it. I am sure there will be some broke combination's (more likely to be broke in the negative than the positive) but since this probably won't be in stone till PHB3 they have a while to work out kinks.
On the topic of 'stacking' bonus damage for striker classes, it looked to me like you had to be using a rogue power to use sneak and had to be using a ranger power to use hunters quarry. How does one get around that?
You can keep it going even longer use Daily powers, and Daily item powers (like Power Jewel, Salve of Power, etc).
Another way I can see extending this is with things like Heavy Blade Opportunity, a paragon feat from the Player's Handbook, which lets one use at-will powers with opportunity attacks. It would certainly be less consistent than other powers, but I could see this give a few more rounds of double striker damage.
Sounds like the armor restrictions will help negate most of the combinations I would have personally liked to play. Too much of a feat investment to get back to a decent armor class for a paladin/warlock. :P
Thus I find myself decidedly undecided on how they should handle armor proficiencies. :P
Maybe make it to where there is no stat requirement for any armor feat that one your classes would normally get for free.
First off, the thing to understand here is that what they want these classes to do is not to be champions at two different roles at the same time, but to instead be able to switch from one role to the next throughout the combat. Just as good (well, mostly) as a proper member of that role when needed, but not able to be good as both sides at once.
So, the Fighter/Rogue can spend one round using fighter powers, and mark his enemies, and defend his friends. And the next round can use Rogue powers and Sneak Attack his foes for Striker damage.
How does this currently interact with Paragon Paths? Do you only get the benefit if the paragon path is only for that class, includes that class as a prerequisite, or not at all?
I've been all for most of their design ideas lately but this just doesn't click with me. Seems to me like it would greatly ruin the class role dynamic they've tried so hard to push. It's also an overly complicated mechanic from the sound of things and will end up being one of those features that only experienced players use to create Uber characters. I don't see it as being very beginner friendly.
The only thing I really see it being good for are games with parties of 2 or 3 players who still want to be able to fill all the roles. This reminds me of gestalt characters from 3rd edition. The idea of this in regular play terrifies me.
I really hope they can find some way to balance this. I suppose we'll see in about a year.
I've been all for most of their design ideas lately but this just doesn't click with me. Seems to me like it would greatly ruin the class role dynamic they've tried so hard to push. It's also an overly complicated mechanic from the sound of things and will end up being one of those features that only experienced players use to create Uber characters. I don't see it as being very beginner friendly.
The only thing I really see it being good for are games with parties of 2 or 3 players who still want to be able to fill all the roles. This reminds me of gestalt characters from 3rd edition. The idea of this in regular play terrifies me.
I really hope they can find some way to balance this. I suppose we'll see in about a year.
Try not to evaluate things based on a cursory glance. Roll up a hybrid character and take it for a spin, and see if it really is overly complicated and a terrifying design choice.
I've been all for most of their design ideas lately but this just doesn't click with me. Seems to me like it would greatly ruin the class role dynamic they've tried so hard to push. It's also an overly complicated mechanic from the sound of things and will end up being one of those features that only experienced players use to create Uber characters. I don't see it as being very beginner friendly.
The only thing I really see it being good for are games with parties of 2 or 3 players who still want to be able to fill all the roles. This reminds me of gestalt characters from 3rd edition. The idea of this in regular play terrifies me.
I really hope they can find some way to balance this. I suppose we'll see in about a year.
I'm not super worried about the idea in terms of play balance - presuming of course that they continue to work hard on keeping things play balanced.
But otherwise I kind of agree with you. Not really strongly or anything but the whole experiment seems like its time and energy being spent on doing something that seems to run counter to the original philosophy of the game. Instead of developing new cool character builds we have effort being put toward making it unclear what role a character fills.
I guess my bottom line is I want the cavalier class already and feel that the multi-class options already on the table did a good enough job of allowing players to mix two classes.
Interesting. In PH4 will you be able to build your own class out of a list of abilities?
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Ok I haven't played much 4e but when I did the first thing I looked into is multi-classing a character (because I wanted a real 2 weapon wielding fighter) I found the multiclassing rules to limiting for my taste, these hybrid rules actually seem more in line for what I thought multiclassing would be like in 4e, but my question is what would be the benefit of standard multiclassing (unless you were only going for a "splash" of another class in your main class),it really seems to me that for all mechanical intents and purposes this would subsume the standard multiclassing rules.
Interesting. In PH4 will you be able to build your own class out of a list of abilities?
I think that it is a possibility that they might end up create something like that eventually. There is already the Eternal Seeker epic destiny in the Player's Handbook that lets one pick Encounter and Daily powers from any class rather than just your own. And the ability to customize your character's powers can be intisified by taking the multiclass feats and eventually choosing Paragon Multiclassing (again from the Player's Handbook).
Overall though, I do think that any options they grant will let you deviate slightly from the chose a class structure and that if you were trying to build a character that just uses picks abilities that you want no matter what class by the rules you will still be somewhat handcuffed by the structure of the classes so you might not be able to do everything that you want still.
Which makes me think of another question I don't think has been answered about this yet. Does the rules for the hybrid characters given allow for a hybrid character with a multiclass feat?
Which makes me think of another question I don't think has been answered about this yet. Does the rules for the hybrid characters given allow for a hybrid character with a multiclass feat?
Yes. As a hybrid character you can still take multiclass feats as normal. You still cannot take multiclass feats for classes you belong to, which includes both your hybrid classes.
Actually, the interesting thing about the playtest of dual classes is that it is a major shift in how classes operate. It's such a large shift, it reminds me of how big a change Tome of Battle:Book of Nine Swords was from anything before it. As TOB/BONS turned out, it was really a playtest for the 4e concepts.
I'm wondering if either at Gencon 2009 or Gencon 2010, Wizards is going to announce a vastly improved D&D experience called Fifth Edition, where no character is restrained by single class roles, and may instead build their character using any number of creation elements. This new version will be hailed by WOTC has infinitely improved over the structured class construction of previous D&D editions, and upon release will make all prior versions of D&D obsolete, though of course you could still play 4e if you wanted to, but all online materials would soon move to 5e only.
Naw. That absolutely could never happen.
Never mind.
I've been all for most of their design ideas lately but this just doesn't click with me. Seems to me like it would greatly ruin the class role dynamic they've tried so hard to push. It's also an overly complicated mechanic from the sound of things and will end up being one of those features that only experienced players use to create Uber characters. I don't see it as being very beginner friendly.
I agree that it's not beginner friendly at all, but I don't think that's the point. We saw with PHB2 that they were willing to up the complexity of the class mechanics for players who are more familiar with the system. Apparently they are looking to take that a step further with hybrid classes in PHB3, and I think that's great. There definitely needs to be material accessible to beginners, but that doesn't mean that all new rules need to be beginner friendly. There needs to be some reward for expertise in the system as well.
Plus, the fact that this does break down the class role dynamic to some degree is one of the reasons I like it. The class roles are a good addition, but personally, sometimes it's easy to see them as too constraining. "Oh, we don't have a controller - well, someone has to switch to controller." or "You're supposed to be a ranged striker, you shouldn't be trying to make a melee build." and that sort of thing. The system easily lends itself to illusion that you need to adhere to the roles stricter than you really need to - sometimes at the cost of the PC concept you really want.
Hybrid classes break that down somewhat (for those who want to use them), and I see that as a good thing. Role is important, but it doesn't have to be sacrosanct. However, it still preserves the role aspect for pretty much all of the hybrid classes. For example, flavor-wise I'd prefer a hybrid ranger that grants beastmaster or one of the other talents. But the ranger is a striker, so the hybrid class ability is quarry in order to maintain their role. You can always pick up beastmaster with the feat (which is what the druid/ranger hybrid in my group is trying).
Lastly, as someone who loved the 3.x multiclassing rules (well, except for the spellcaster shaft, but that's a whole other discussion), hybrid classes let me play the characters I want to play even more than the multiclass feats allow. Some concepts I have fit a single class, others work with the multiclass feats, but some really are a full blend of two classes. I am very happy to see this mechanic and hope to survives to PHB3. But I also realize that it isn't going to be to everyone's liking.
Actually, the interesting thing about the playtest of dual classes is that it is a major shift in how classes operate. It's such a large shift, it reminds me of how big a change Tome of Battle:Book of Nine Swords was from anything before it. As TOB/BONS turned out, it was really a playtest for the 4e concepts.
I'm wondering if either at Gencon 2009 or Gencon 2010, Wizards is going to announce a vastly improved D&D experience called Fifth Edition, where no character is restrained by single class roles, and may instead build their character using any number of creation elements. This new version will be hailed by WOTC has infinitely improved over the structured class construction of previous D&D editions, and upon release will make all prior versions of D&D obsolete, though of course you could still play 4e if you wanted to, but all online materials would soon move to 5e only.
Naw. That absolutely could never happen.
Never mind.
You're right. It absolutely will not happen.
So anyone done the legwork and made Hybrid entries for the PH2 classes yet?
What a silly question. Within a few hours of course more than one person would have done that. :) Here's the two I saw over at EN World:
Hit points, saves, and skills are pretty straightforward, so it's mostly what class ability gets chosen to hybrid. Typically, it's pretty easy to guess which one strengthens the role the most. So it's simple work for most classes given the PHB examples.
Hey, just for kicks, let's take a look at One Bad Egg's Witch Doctor class since it's awesome. Hmm... I'd say Evil Eye once per encounter. There, it's that easy. :)
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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So anyone done the legwork and made Hybrid entries for the PH2 classes yet?What a silly question. Within a few hours of course more than one person would have done that. :) Here's the two I saw over at EN World:
Hit points, saves, and skills are pretty straightforward, so it's mostly what class ability gets chosen to hybrid. Typically, it's pretty easy to guess which one strengthens the role the most. So it's simple work for most classes given the PHB examples.
Hey, just for kicks, let's take a look at One Bad Egg's Witch Doctor class since it's awesome. Hmm... I'd say Evil Eye once per encounter. There, it's that easy. :)
Yeah, I kind of had an "oh duh" moment after posting and did a little looking around on Google. There's a pretty decent workup Here.
I was mostly interested in the Sorcerer, who basically only has the one class feature, Spell Source. You can limit what they get out of it, but then the question becomes, what and how much do you give them, and what do they then get for taking the Hybrid Talent feat?
I'm wondering if either at Gencon 2009 or Gencon 2010, Wizards is going to announce a vastly improved D&D experience called Fifth Edition, where no character is restrained by single class roles, and may instead build their character using any number of creation elements.
I would be in for a penny.
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I'm wondering if either at Gencon 2009 or Gencon 2010, Wizards is going to announce a vastly improved D&D experience called Fifth Edition, where no character is restrained by single class roles, and may instead build their character using any number of creation elements.I would be in for a penny.
I'd take some of that action too.
I'm not thrilled with this, and not because I can see any specific issue of abuse, per se, but because we were already told that the current system of multi-classing was the best way to do it under 4E, so that characters will never be "less effective" because of multi-classing.
Not only does the article point out that some combinations might be less than optimal, but it also introduces two methods to do the same thing. To my way of thinking, that needlessly complicates the system.
While I still prefer 3.5 to 4E, I can respect that they had a certain set of guidelines for how they wanted to develop the game, but now it seems that those guidelines are kind of out the window by the third year of Player's Handbooks, which just doesn't bode well to me.
I like it. But that is only because I think I'm slightly madly driven to see more options, and something that adds this many new sets of options tickles me.
Forget working within the current system, I want N*(N-1)/2 more choices for what class I put down! I want my ability to triple-class (without bard or that epic destiny) and my wizard/invoker (druid multiclass)! Muah ha ha!
Ahem.
I guess I just didn't really favor the Multiclass feat method for multiclassing, I had issues with how it works (in particular, power-swap feats), so when I hear new multiclassing option I'm more apt to favor it.
I'm not thrilled with this, and not because I can see any specific issue of abuse, per se, but because we were already told that the current system of multi-classing was the best way to do it under 4E, so that characters will never be "less effective" because of multi-classing.
Not only does the article point out that some combinations might be less than optimal, but it also introduces two methods to do the same thing. To my way of thinking, that needlessly complicates the system.
While I still prefer 3.5 to 4E, I can respect that they had a certain set of guidelines for how they wanted to develop the game, but now it seems that those guidelines are kind of out the window by the third year of Player's Handbooks, which just doesn't bode well to me.
I don't think this is the approach they took to the issue. I think it was more along the lines of the following:
4th Edition is released. Most people like the multiclassing system it provides, but there are a number of people who wanted a more even balance between two classes - kind of like how a Mystic Theurge worked in 3.5. They didn't want to be master of one class, dabbler in another. They wanted to be true hybrids that are just as at home in one role as another.
WotC saw a fairly simple way to accomplish this - and it is simple. You are essentially taking the average of the classes' stats, half their class features, and half your powers from each class. The most complicated part, in fact, is probably deciding which class feature to pick up with your hybrid feat.
I think it satisfies a demand pretty easily. And, above all, if you don't like it, don't use it. It's doesn't make the previous multiclassing system obsolete by any stretch.
Remember though, these rules are experimental, and will likely change significantly before they end up getting published.
Yeah, for that reason alone I don't think I'm going to be trying to look up more information on this, I'm a long way away from making any character with them and I don't especially get tied to rules that could be changing in the coming months.
Remember though, these rules are experimental, and will likely change significantly before they end up getting published.
That's a good point.
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This will be interesting.
Personally, I'm not all that thrilled about it. In my mind it completely invalidates multiclassing and the limits imposed by 4E and pretty much opens the floodgates into the exact same problem I have with 3E mutliclassing. I am sure others will enjoy it, but I plan to avoid it like the plague.
Couldn't you just make a hybrid class to start and then use the multiclassing feats to get the third class, or do they spell that out as impossible in the rules?I want my ability to triple-class and my wizard/invoker (druid multiclass)! Muah ha ha!
Nope, you can totally do this. Hybrid characters can still take multiclass feats. A hybrid wizard/invoker with druid multiclass feats is totally possible, once the invoker and druid hybrid classes are published.
A hybrid wizard/invoker with druid multiclass feats is totally possible, once the invoker and druid hybrid classes are published.I thought the druid came out with the PHBII and an invoker is just a wizard path isn't it? how come he can't do it now?
Invoker is a totally separate class from Wizard. Both the Druid and Invoker classes were released in the PHB2, but the hybrid versions of those classes were not published in the hybrid classes playtest. I should have said that you'd need to wait for the Invoker hybrid class; you don't really need to wait for the Druid hybrid class, since you'd just be taking multiclass feats (which you can already do), but I have a feeling the hybrid classes for Druids and Invokers will be published at the same time.
A hybrid wizard/invoker with druid multiclass feats is totally possible, once the invoker and druid hybrid classes are published.I thought the druid came out with the PHBII and an invoker is just a wizard path isn't it? how come he can't do it now?
In 4e the Invoker is a divine class from Player's Handbook 2.
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Invoker is a totally separate class from Wizard. Both the Druid and Invoker classes were released in the PHB2, but the hybrid versions of those classes were not published in the hybrid classes playtest. I should have said that you'd need to wait for the Invoker hybrid class; you don't really need to wait for the Druid hybrid class, since you'd just be taking multiclass feats (which you can already do), but I have a feeling the hybrid classes for Druids and Invokers will be published at the same time.A hybrid wizard/invoker with druid multiclass feats is totally possible, once the invoker and druid hybrid classes are published.I thought the druid came out with the PHBII and an invoker is just a wizard path isn't it? how come he can't do it now?
Oh hybrids have to be individually published? I thought they were just a template like set of guidlines that you could use to mix and match any core class, granted some won't mesh that well etc, but I don't have insider so I can't actually see the rules. So each class gets a hybrid write up you use and then you just throw together two hybrid write ups?
Oh hybrids have to be individually published? I thought they were just a template like set of guidlines that you could use to mix and match any core class, granted some won't mesh that well etc, but I don't have insider so I can't actually see the rules. So each class gets a hybrid write up you use and then you just throw together two hybrid write ups?
From what I gathered from the thread, it is like you needing a multiclass feat to multiclass into a certain class.
Each class is given a list of abilities they get from being in a hybrid combination.
If you don't have that list of abilities you would have to work with you DM to determine what abilities you should get, if you were to play that hybrid class.
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So they don't provide info for what a cleric/wizard hybrid gets specifically. But they tell you what a cleric hybrid gets, and what wizard hybrid gets, so you just combine those two to determine what a cleric/wizard hybrid gets.