After having read the Elves of Golarian, all I can say is Equal Treatment for Dwarves!!!
Bah, Gnomes before Dwarves.
Bah, Jinx Cats before Gnomes.
Bah, Gnomes before Dwarves.
I also want a Gnomes of Golarian book as well. But Dwarves before Gnomes or they will Gnome away!
Oh, and I want Mike McArtor to write the Gnomes of Golarian book. He would do a great job writing it!
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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Oh, and I want Mike McArtor to write the Gnomes of Golarian book. He would do a great job writing it!
For sure. I wouldn't read it if it was written by anyone other than Mike. (OK, I would, but I'd feel bad doing it). (OK I wouldn't feel bad, but Mike should still write it).
I know they are exposed in the various Pathfinder Chronicles or Companions, but why not a Humans of Golarion ?
The supplement would be much less about the kingdoms and cities, and much more about the civilizations and cultures.
Paizo is good with fluff, such a detailed exposition would be great.
Dwarves - yes
Gnomes - yes
Halflings - yes
Humans - yes
Bastards (Golarion's halfs) - maybe
Tainted (Golarion's planetouched) - yes
That's a great list!
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Yeah, I'm for dwarves and gnomes. I love the Golarion gnomes with their crazy hair and their crazy aging system, and their crazy. Did I mention that? I like their crazy.
Would be interested in half-breeds of Golarion too (half-elves and half-orcs) and whatever they want to call their T&A (tieflings and aasimar).
Really not that interested in a humans of Golarion supplement though as that's pretty similar to region entries as far as I'm concerned.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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Get a room you two. ;)
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Please, can we have one campaign setting where we go away from the "Dwarves: Rock Hard Kickass Heroes Everyone Wants To Be One, Elves: Pansy Feminine Angsty Emo Freaks Nobody Wants To Be" cliche ? For once ? WFRP does that all the way, and I still have players who refuse to play Elves because they are "for girls and... the sexually confused".
When we do see a dwarves book, I hope that it contains the missing Dwarven Defender PrC make-over...
Creative Director
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Please, can we have one campaign setting where we go away from the "Dwarves: Rock Hard Kickass Heroes Everyone Wants To Be One, Elves: Pansy Feminine Angsty Emo Freaks Nobody Wants To Be" cliche ? For once ? WFRP does that all the way, and I still have players who refuse to play Elves because they are "for girls and... the sexually confused".
My concern there is that dwarves and elves have lots of fans, and remaking them into something else is risky. It's like what happened with Coke and New Coke; they estranged their established customers for an imaginary new customer base that didn't really exist.
The elves of Golarion are pretty much what they are because we wanted them to appeal to people who are fans of D&D style elves. Ditto the dwarves, halflings, gnomes, orcs, etc. Turning elves into something else would only be a guarantee of losing the customer who likes elves, and that's not what Golarion is about.
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My concern there is that dwarves and elves have lots of fans, and remaking them into something else is risky. It's like what happened with Coke and New Coke; they estranged their established customers for an imaginary new customer base that didn't really exist.
The elves of Golarion are pretty much what they are because we wanted them to appeal to people who are fans of D&D style elves. Ditto the dwarves, halflings, gnomes, orcs, etc. Turning elves into something else would only be a guarantee of losing the customer who likes elves, and that's not what Golarion is about.
I agree... there are reasons for sticking with popular archetypes.
While Pathfinder could create new dwarves and elves, as they have done with gnomes; I would much rather that they re-wrote the old standards really really well, like they did with Elves of Golarion.
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Please, can we have one campaign setting where we go away from the "Dwarves: Rock Hard Kickass Heroes Everyone Wants To Be One, Elves: Pansy Feminine Angsty Emo Freaks Nobody Wants To Be" cliche ? For once ? WFRP does that all the way, and I still have players who refuse to play Elves because they are "for girls and... the sexually confused".
Bah!
This is because Dwarves ARE Rock Hard Kickass Heroes Everyone Wants To Be.
And Elves ARE Pansy Feminine Angsty Emo Freaks Nobody Wants To Be.
I guess Paizo had to be "Politically Correct" and give the little tree lovin freaks their own book. Nothin worse than an elven lawyer at your door. Course I imagine Paizo expects the Elf "book" to do real bad, and probably wrote it off as charity.
But that is OK, cause the Dwarf document will more than break any sales records in RPG history. Unless the elves in bookkeeping "fix the books" like they usually do (like they did with Enron and the financial markets- should have hired gnomes for that instead).
and ummm a gnome book would be semi cool too.
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Back in 2nd edition, the Complete Book of Dwarves *completely* revolutionized Dwarves for me. I had never had the slightest interest in the race, and then this book comes out with Battlerager Dwarves drinking some foul concoction of fermented goat's milk called Gutshaker that other races could barely even stomach, and it was the coolest thing ever.
(The less said about 2E's Complete Book of Elves, the better.)
I would hope that a Dwarves of Golarion book would similarly breath life into the race, without actually dragging them too far away from their roots.
Thankfully, 3E already *has* dragged them far from their 1st edition roots (and closer to their original mythic roots, as magical craftsmen!) by allowing them to become Wizards.
I would love to see a Dwarves of Golarion book focus on this fairly significant change, as the best 'dwarf books' of previous editions obviously didn't touch on this sort of thing, since Dwarves of previous editions were innately non-magical.
Tattooed Dwarven rune-wizards, etching their arcane writings into stone and flesh alike, twining even their beards into arcane knotwork, according to secret principles, to 'tie off power' to be released later with the loosening of a knot.
Geomantic Sorcerers, said to be mad and white-eyed by surface kin, with their trembling hands and heads-tilted to the stone, listening to the whispers of elemental presences unheard by others. From the whispered tutelage of these voices, or perhaps from their own fractured madness, say their detractors, they learn to evoke forces similar to those of Wizards, but with subtle differences.
Dwarven Bards, masters of the 'workchant' and able to send coded messages reverbrating for miles through the darkened depths, by drumming or pounding on the cold stone walls.
All stuff that *should* exist in a 3E-derived 'any race can be any class' setting, but has, IMO, gotten little development.
Hammer & Helm, from Green Ronin, has some interesting stuff, and I wouldn't mind seeing some ideas as creative as those (but different, obviously!).
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I also want a Gnolls of Golarion book, that gets away from the 'lazy smelly bickering cretins' thing and introduces scary sleek-skinned Osirion Gnolls, former slave-soldiers of the Osirion Godkings armies, now living as nocturnal desert raiders and having jackal-heads and sleek builds and smooth coats and Egyptian style weapons and armor (and chariots pulled by Hyaenadons? Is that too much to ask?). Depicting some Lamashtu-worshipping tribes of Gnolls as matriarchal would also be neat, 'cause I can't imagine a Lamashtu-centric tribe taking crap from it's menfolk...
'Cause I'm just insane that way.
Goblins of Golarion could be a coloring book, with lots of pictures of Goblins getting into all sorts of mischief, along with some story (that happens to include a little bit of useful information, but not much) along the edges of the page.
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Creative Director
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My concern there is that dwarves and elves have lots of fans, and remaking them into something else is risky. It's like what happened with Coke and New Coke; they estranged their established customers for an imaginary new customer base that didn't really exist.
The elves of Golarion are pretty much what they are because we wanted them to appeal to people who are fans of D&D style elves. Ditto the dwarves, halflings, gnomes, orcs, etc. Turning elves into something else would only be a guarantee of losing the customer who likes elves, and that's not what Golarion is about.
I agree... there are reasons for sticking with popular archetypes.
While Pathfinder could create new dwarves and elves, as they have done with gnomes; I would much rather that they re-wrote the old standards really really well, like they did with Elves of Golarion.
See... the thing there is we DIDN'T create new gnomes. The gnome flavor for Golarion is very gnome, and the fact that the 3.5 version of them sorta just made them shorter dwarves is why, I suspect, gnome fans were disappointed with them.
And Elves ARE Pansy Feminine Angsty Emo Freaks Nobody Wants To Be.
*raises hand* I want to be a pansy feminine angsty emo freak.
*wanders off to look at the one-legged pants*
Do all the races. And do dwarves last. What more has to be said about them? They like metal. They like stone. They like alcohol. They like fighting. They're rude. We get it. :P
"Dwarves: Rock Hard Kickass Heroes Everyone Wants To Be One
Never encountered that. Usually it's "Dwarves: Rude and Ugly and nobody likes them but they're overpowered so I play one plus, it's an excuse to annoy people and play the same socially disfunctional twink I have played the last 12 campaigns". Seriously. Every sunday I sit ther and think: "If that dwarf repeats his women-without-beards-are-ugly-rant one more time, I'll murder him in his sleep." And I'm not sure whether I mean the character or the player...
, Elves: Pansy Feminine Angsty Emo Freaks Nobody Wants To Be" cliche ?
I know about the pansy and feminine cliche. But the angsty emo parts are new. You sure you don't mean drizzts?
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See... the thing there is we DIDN'T create new gnomes. The gnome flavor for Golarion is very gnome, and the fact that the 3.5 version of them sorta just made them shorter dwarves is why, I suspect, gnome fans were disappointed with them.
Fair enough. Believe me, it wasn't a complaint :)
I should have said that you revitalized a race which was typically the least popular choice.
Although, I do believe the cross-between-a-dwarf-and-halfling pre-dates 3.5e: earlier editions, Dragonlance, Nordic mythos...
Just don't give them red pointy hats taller than they are.
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And Elves ARE Pansy Feminine Angsty Emo Freaks Nobody Wants To Be.*raises hand* I want to be a pansy feminine angsty emo freak.
*wanders off to look at the one-legged pants*
Trust me... no you don't... really...just trust me to know what is best for you...now have a nice warm lager and let's sing some bawdy tavern songs and start a bar fight!
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Do all the races. And do dwarves last. What more has to be said about them? They like metal. They like stone. They like alcohol. They like fighting. They're rude. We get it. :P
"Dwarves: Rock Hard Kickass Heroes Everyone Wants To Be OneNever encountered that. Usually it's "Dwarves: Rude and Ugly and nobody likes them but they're overpowered so I play one plus, it's an excuse to annoy people and play the same socially disfunctional twink I have played the last 12 campaigns". Seriously. Every sunday I sit ther and think: "If that dwarf repeats his women-without-beards-are-ugly-rant one more time, I'll murder him in his sleep." And I'm not sure whether I mean the character or the player...
, Elves: Pansy Feminine Angsty Emo Freaks Nobody Wants To Be" cliche ?I know about the pansy and feminine cliche. But the angsty emo parts are new. You sure you don't mean drizzts?
But are your players playing up the very lawful nature of the dwarf? Dedication to family, clan and race unto death if need be. The sheer steadfastness of a dwarf's friendship in the face of unheard of challenges. And while dwarves like and are even bound to the rock and metals of the hearth from which they arose, they must survive using other skills as well. In fact their sheer tenacity and dedication make them some of the most remarkable and dedicated craftsmen around.
Are your players playing up the Golarion version of dwarves on the decline, a race that has reached its destiny of the surface world and now faces decline and eventual extinction? And in the face of that reality they hold fast to the faith and beliefs... even unto death of the race they are true...
compare that to the chaotic nature of the elf which cannot keep its mind focused on any one topic. They choose friends and mates only to leave them when something better comes along. That, and they like to hump trees...
Trust me... no you don't... really...just trust me to know what is best for you...now have a nice warm lager and let's sing some bawdy tavern songs and start a bar fight!
I only drink elderberry wine, which makes you throw up giggles and sunshine until you're sad, and why get into a bar fight when you can write gloomy poetry? And shop in the girl's section of Hot Topic?
But are your players playing up the very lawful nature of the dwarf? Dedication to family, clan and race unto death if need be.
You don't need to be lawful to sacrifice yourself in order to save your family. Self-sacrifice for loved ones is a Good thing.
You only nee that if you want to sacrifice yourself in order to save meaningless things like tradition.
The sheer steadfastness of a dwarf's friendship in the face of unheard of challenges.
Sticking to your friends is Good rather than Lawful, too. Lawful would mean abandoning your friend if he does something illegal.
They choose friends and mates only to leave them when something better comes along.
And you harangue me about not talking about Golarion's dwarves? What you speak of here is anything, but not a Golarion Elf: "Elves value friendship highly, and they stick by their friends with a loyalty sometimes exceeding the familial bonds of other races"
If you want a true friend, get an elf. A dwarf might kill you if you fail to honour his clan and race with every second word, but an elf would probably defend you against other elves even if they're enraged at your friend saying something like "you elves can be right bastards".
Dwarves might be the better workhorses (and I'll be sure to use them as my preferred slave race), but if I want a real friend, someone I can count on, I tell you I'd rather one that is said humping trees than one going to bed with gold and stone.
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I only drink elderberry wine, which makes you throw up giggles and sunshine until you're sad, and why get into a bar fight when you can write gloomy poetry? And shop in the girl's section of Hot Topic?
Trust me... no you don't... really...just trust me to know what is best for you...now have a nice warm lager and let's sing some bawdy tavern songs and start a bar fight!
Yeah... OK... you're an elf...
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But are your players playing up the very lawful nature of the dwarf? Dedication to family, clan and race unto death if need be.You don't need to be lawful to sacrifice yourself in order to save your family. Self-sacrifice for loved ones is a Good thing.
You only nee that if you want to sacrifice yourself in order to save meaningless things like tradition.
The sheer steadfastness of a dwarf's friendship in the face of unheard of challenges.Sticking to your friends is Good rather than Lawful, too. Lawful would mean abandoning your friend if he does something illegal.
They choose friends and mates only to leave them when something better comes along.And you harangue me about not talking about Golarion's dwarves? What you speak of here is anything, but not a Golarion Elf: "Elves value friendship highly, and they stick by their friends with a loyalty sometimes exceeding the familial bonds of other races"
If you want a true friend, get an elf. A dwarf might kill you if you fail to honour his clan and race with every second word, but an elf would probably defend you against other elves even if they're enraged at your friend saying something like "you elves can be right bastards".
Dwarves might be the better workhorses (and I'll be sure to use them as my preferred slave race), but if I want a real friend, someone I can count on, I tell you I'd rather one that is said humping trees than one going to bed with gold and stone.
Ahhh elves speak a good line... but when the Starstone fell they abandoned their non-elf friends and even abandoned some elves to Golarion's doom. Rather than remaining true they fled... Actions speak louder than words... and the Golarion elves have proven themselves to be anything but dedicated.
Only when they found the land reclaimed did they bother to come back.
Is that what you would want as a friend? Someone that has proven they will abandon you when the going gets rough, and only return after you have conquered the barriers in your way? Is that someone you can count on?
No, the elves talk a good lie about themselves. But they have shown their true colors.
No, the elves talk a good lie about themselves. But they have shown their true colors.
Pinks, off-whites, dingy grays, and pastel spring blues and greens?
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Please, can we have one campaign setting where we go away from the "Dwarves: Rock Hard Kickass Heroes Everyone Wants To Be One, Elves: Pansy Feminine Angsty Emo Freaks Nobody Wants To Be" cliche ? For once ? WFRP does that all the way, and I still have players who refuse to play Elves because they are "for girls and... the sexually confused".
i hope you understand that means you will get filled by arrows
read first elves of Golarion
elves are not girly... not when on the other side of a bow :P
loved elves of Golarion
would love to read about Dwarves
but mostly i would prefer to see human based companiosn two
or just one where they told more about them....
but more importantly
i want more more more on the grey elves of the Mordant Spire
Ahhh elves speak a good line... but when the Starstone fell they abandoned their non-elf friends and even abandoned some elves to Golarion's doom.
There were no non-elf friends back then. It was pretty much only humans (bunch of savages, with the exception of a bunch of arrogant elitists who were so arrogant that they brought the doom upon themselves and everyone else) and goblins. Nothing to miss there. It was only when they came back that they found that humans have grown up a little. Before, they were a bunch of Prince Joffreys.
And the other elves stayed voluntarily. It's not in elven nature to tell others how to do things.
There was really nothing holding the elves there. That's no crime in my book.
Compare that to the dwarves' actions in those times:
Head Dwarf 1: "I can't stand the orcs any more. They taunt us with their tall and muscular physique!"
Head Dwarf 2: "Same here. Hey, I have an idea: We've found this crazy big cave way up, the one you cannot see the ceiling. There are unsuspecting creatures about the size of orcs.
Our Aboleth allies have told us that they will darken that cave soon, for a thousand years! So here's what we do: we shove the orcs out of our caves just when it's nice and dark outside. They will see this big cave, and the inhabitants as easy marks - especially since the aboleths tell us that the mightiest ones will die by their tentacles, and the rest cannot see in the dark. The orcs will lose all interest in us once they have those new playthings."
HD1: "Good thinking. In fact, I think we'll abandon some of those big-cave-dwellers ourselves. Maybe we can breed some more height into our race!"
HD2: "Yeah! I hope they're hermaphrodites like us!"
loved elves of Golarionwould love to read about Dwarves
Yeah. I'd like a slightly different format, though: Before the other content, have several pages that only contain a single sentence each, written as big as possible. The sentences are stuff like: "DWARF WOMEN DON'T HAVE BEARDS!" "DWARVES ARE NO EXCUSE FOR ANNOYING OTHER PLAYERS" "NOT ALL DWARVES ARE ARROGANT RACISTS!" and so on.
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Yeah. I'd like a slightly different format, though: Before the other content, have several pages that only contain a single sentence each, written as big as possible. The sentences are stuff like: "DWARF WOMEN DON'T HAVE BEARDS!" "DWARVES ARE NO EXCUSE FOR ANNOYING OTHER PLAYERS" "NOT ALL DWARVES ARE ARROGANT RACISTS!" and so on.
ahh good good ideas to begin with
indeed i like the comment in Elves og Golarion that said that since the elves and the dwarves have so different interet they are in friendly terms because they don't have areas where to fight for, the elves make use of the dwarved mined metals and the dwarves on otherartefactsof the elf... soo in general htye have a goodrelationshiop Alignment not withstanding
but forgive Krome... he has an issue with his height and weight, that is why he keeps complaining on the nice elves
and yes... in the years before the "darkness" they were figthing the savage humans and already thinking on going away and let the short lived race die on its own...
they did not understood that humanity is like chroaches... there is no way to snuf them
Dwarves were nice enough to gift all racesof Golarion with Orcs :P
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Lies, or at best, the self-serving half-memories of the more forgetful races!Ahhh elves speak a good line... but when the Starstone fell they abandoned their non-elf friends and even abandoned some elves to Golarion's doom. Rather than remaining true they fled... Actions speak louder than words... and the Golarion elves have proven themselves to be anything but dedicated.
Only when they found the land reclaimed did they bother to come back.
Is that what you would want as a friend? ...
- When the Starstone fell, most of the humans were pre-literate savages pressing on the elf nation.
- We did not "abandon" our own. Some stayed of their own free will, either disputing the consensus expectations, or in a belief that they would be needed.
- Remaining true to what, exactly? Self-immolation for self-immolation's sake? I suggest you look into firebreak technology.
- Deeds are indeed truer than words. The undisputed fact that the elves were able to save themselves proves that they had reached a higher peak of civilization, even at that early date.
- Wait, returning to our lands proves we're not dedicated to them? Huh? Sometimes things just need a fallow period.
- Re-claimed? You mean claimed by squatters and tresspassers? In the fullness of time, they will no doubt be reclaimed by their rightful guardians.
Elf power!
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Lies, or at best, the self-serving half-memories of the more forgetful races!
- When the Starstone fell, most of the humans were pre-literate savages pressing on the elf nation.
- We did not "abandon" our own. Some stayed of their own free will, either disputing the consensus expectations, or in a belief that they would be needed.
- Remaining true to what, exactly? Self-immolation for self-immolation's sake? I suggest you look into firebreak technology.
- Deeds are indeed truer than words. The undisputed fact that the elves were able to save themselves proves that they had reached a higher peak of civilization, even at that early date.
- Wait, returning to our lands proves we're not dedicated to them? Huh? Sometimes things just need a fallow period.
- Re-claimed? You mean claimed by squatters and tresspassers? In the fullness of time, they will no doubt be reclaimed by their rightful guardians.
Elf power!
i agree with her whole heartedly
nothing to do with her avatar (which is good!)
Rock choppers or tree huggers - it matters not. All kneel to the bastard sons of Belkzen
bastard sons of Belkzen
Bah, they're so lowly they have to look up to gnomes.
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Had a realization also about elves... that whole GOOD part, another myth...again deeds speak louder than words.
They Abandon their own kind in order to save their cowardly hides.
When they return they Lie about what they have done.
They build barriers to their conquered cities to keep friendly races out.
They set up guards around their conquered lands to Kill trespassers.
They Lie about the Drow.
Evil is so inherent in the elf that they are susceptible to its influences and transform into Drow.
At best I put them at CN, and most are probably CE, actively spreading murder and lies in order to further their own greedy goals.
Sure there are elf apologists out there. But we all know the truth. So, why don't you go back to your elven topics and leave us dwarves be. Oh, wait, must be no one other than elf apologists are on those topics.
Noticed the Topic "Mystery of the Elves" only has 4 replies to it... no one cares about elves.
This topic was alive and thriving until "elves" showed up and killed it. No one cares about elves.
Please, go back to humping your trees. No one cares about elves.
No one cares about elves.
Most of those who talk about dwarves here are saying "before you do a dwarf book, do everything else, inclusing "Interesting Cloud Formations Spotted over Golarion", before you do the dwarf book. Because dwarves are sooo boring.
What is there about dwarves? The only story they have a starring role in involves a broad who chokes on an apple. Oh, and one about a baker's dozen of dwarves who have to hire a dumb hobbit to do their work.
Beyond that, it's just bit parts in stories, where they amuse people (who laugh at them and their antics, when they're tossed about, have to wear chain shirts that are like gowns to them, or lose drinking contests against skinny elves)
The answer to the dwarf question is usually a counter-question: "Dwarves? What dwarves?"
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The answer to the dwarf question is usually a counter-question: "Dwarves? What dwarves?"
only answer: "damned guys who brought out the ors so they could kill, maim and rape friendly races"
that is a lot for a friendly race
at least elves solve their problems themselves instead of pushing it toward others.
You can't really blame them. After all, they were unable to defeat the orcs. They really needed the help.
Now, can we contact FFG and get dworgs in the game? Now that's orc/dwarf relationship like I always pictured it!
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And this is how the wars start... But seriously, I had two players - Elf Fighter/Mage and Dwarf Fighter/Cleric. Those two were perfect example of these stereotypes - but they were devastating battlefield combination. Dwarves and Elves always work better together than apart. Haven't you two read LotR?
~reads the thread and laughs~ Oh my! What have I started? ~chucking~