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One question i always forgot to ask...
what is the avarage cultural level of Golarion?
with this i mean... how much people, know how to read and write?
in real medieval times, only priest (including Templars), scholars, seneschal and very few other people knwe how to write (many a noble was unable to read or write at all)
2nd AD&D had this skill or proficiency (taken only once, and every language you learned you were supposed to know how to read or write)
in 3.0 it was assumed that every class... except barbarian knew how to read or write, until he took later an skill...
i don't know what was supposed to happen in 3.5
the question is...
in Golarion how well extended is the education?
i know there aresome early presses... but in the end this are quite uncommon...
for Example... Merisiel might have 100 years... but she was an urching for most of her life and she is not exactly the most intelligent person... does she know how to read and write? or did Kyra or Seoni teached her later? or if at all?
if every player character knows how to read... does this mean every urchin knows how to write and read?
barbarians write as fluently as the wizard?
does anyone has thought of this, or do i overcomplicate things...
as much as prefer worlds and settings were you don't always understand what your enemy says, i also think that no every character knowswhatthe other person wrote (i was reminded of this saddly when a person was buying some beers in an store but he was unable to read the ticket saying he bought 2 6-packs, but the poeple in charge were jking at his expenses saying the ticker only said 1)
i know that at least clerics and wizards know how to read and write, this is almost true to paladins, bards and monks (the first oneif trained in a church and not by himself, the 2nd for reading and writing stories, the3rd if teached in a monastery)
but does the ranger, barbarian, fighter, rogue, sorcerer, know how to read and write? its not exactly necesary for their profession.
for me at least anyone taking literacy and most knowledge would have have this skill
what are your thoughts... but more importantly... since Paizo is not sendingmy books to amazon and iam still lacking my Pathfinder Campaign Setting ... what is the official answer?
I think it depends on the country.
Realm of the Mammoth Kings -- not much literacy, primitive culture
Hermea -- 100% literacy, high culture
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You just have to intuit certain cultural markers. The Gazeteer focuses on the fantastic and political aspects of a country (the things that most adventurers care about) but it's light on how the various societies actually function. Agriculture, literacy, marriage, child birth, home-making and commerce are mostly ignored.
It would be a fun exercise on these boards to imagine how the children of different countries are raised and educated, how the home of an average citizen might look, and what an average 'day in the life of a [occupation] in [country]' would entail.
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You just have to intuit certain cultural markers. The Gazeteer focuses on the fantastic and political aspects of a country (the things that most adventurers care about) but it's light on how the various societies actually function. Agriculture, literacy, marriage, child birth, home-making and commerce are mostly ignored.
It would be a fun exercise on these boards to imagine how the children of different countries are raised and educated, how the home of an average citizen might look, and what an average 'day in the life of a [occupation] in [country]' would entail.
definitively
for example Korvosa is a great city nad surely the high strata citizens surely have a good education... but they also told you a lot about the bad parts of the city where children are kidnaped and used for hard labor (player's guide to Curse of Crimson Throne, so no spoilers), in this medium i doubt a lot of people has any idea of how to read and write...
Sandpoint is a merchant town, looks pintoresque... but still as a player i have not investigated enough of the town... i would say the nobles everyone is educated, but the people in the low strata?
I can see for example my cleric teaching the kids how to read and write aside of just the orphans in the catedral... mmm ok i would have to bite on this
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You just have to intuit certain cultural markers. The Gazeteer focuses on the fantastic and political aspects of a country (the things that most adventurers care about) but it's light on how the various societies actually function. Agriculture, literacy, marriage, child birth, home-making and commerce are mostly ignored.
It would be a fun exercise on these boards to imagine how the children of different countries are raised and educated, how the home of an average citizen might look, and what an average 'day in the life of a [occupation] in [country]' would entail.
definitively
for example Korvosa is a great city nad surely the high strata citizens surely have a good education... but they also told you a lot about the bad parts of the city where children are kidnaped and used for hard labor (player's guide to Curse of Crimson Throne, so no spoilers), in this medium i doubt a lot of people has any idea of how to read and write...
Sandpoint is a merchant town, looks pintoresque... but still as a player i have not investigated enough of the town... i would say the nobles everyone is educated, but the people in the low strata?
I can see for example my cleric teaching the kids how to read and write aside of just the orphans in the catedral... mmm ok i would have to bite on this
You've got to consider the difference between functional literacy and sophisticated reading. Just because you don't fully understand Joyce's Ulysses, doesn't mean you can't read street signs and menus.
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The question of how wide spread literacy is a fascinating one. If we go by the 3.5 player’s hand book on page 82 in the speak language skill it states “ a literate character ( anyone but a barbarian who has not spent skill points to become literate) can read and write any language she speaks. “ We can assume this extends to the NPC classes such as the aristocrat, the expert, and the commoner.
However the previous posters bring up some good points. Would a street waif know how to read? What strata’s in society know how to read. How far down does the literacy go? I suppose some of this depends on weather there is any form of state or church sponsored education that can be taken for free.
As for Golaron, one can assume that in Absolom, Hermia, Nex, Qadria and Andoran there is a fair amount of literacy. I would guess that in the bigs cities of Andoran like Augustana and Almas, there is a fair amount of literacy, but in a frontier community like Falcon’s hollow being a “company town” full of luberjacks, there probably is not much literacy.
I would guess that in Belkzen land of the orcs, in the north in the Land of the Linnorm kings, and the realm of the Mammoth lords, and the Mwangni Expance, there isn’t much literacy. These cultures might however have a rich oral tradition.
I guess it depends. Just my two coppers.
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Thanks for the opinion Elyas
However the previous posters bring up some good points. Would a street waif know how to read? What strata’s in society know how to read. How far down does the literacy go? I suppose some of this depends on weather there is any form of state or church sponsored education that can be taken for free.
Real World Example... In Mexico the Church had the duty to teach, between other things, reading & writing to the population... when the independence was consumated the percentage of illiteracy was of 95% (i am a Catholic and a Cinic so i understand the political reasons and conotations of this) so it doesn't always happens as is supposed, but thanks for all the ideas, it gives me ideas.
And certainly in those cultures where there is no writing tradition, its usually based on oral traditions...
but any extra ideas are received :)
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Economic levels and religious dogmas also play a large part in how literate the society is. A lot of religions actively teach kids to read so they can read their holy texts. Others discourage their followers from reading because it might expose them to heretical thoughts. The more affluent a society is especially those with a middle class tend to have a greater literacy rate than fudal kingdoms or oligarchys. A societys literacy rate would be largest among the middle classes, second among the nobility and preisthoods and the lower classes haveing the lest amount.
Creative Director
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The spread of literacy in the Inner Sea region isn't something you can sum up; it's different for every nation. That said... literacy in Golarion is higher than it is in the real-world medieval era... and this is a good time to remind folk that Golarion is NOT meant to be a "medieval" era setting. It's nations run from the early Renaissance period all the way back to caveman times, and there are unfactored variants like Atlantis-type societies and magic and all that as well.
It's certainly okay to assume that all characters with charcter class levels (save for barbarians, of course) can read. I'd add experts and aristocrats that list as well, along with any creature that's smart enough to get a bonus language.
In other words, more characters in Golarion can read than can't.
It might be interesting to tie literacy to character traits in some way.
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It might be interesting to tie literacy to character traits in some way.
i like the idea of using skills like some knowledge, linguistics and maybe any feat refering to this skills would mean that the character is automaticaly able to read and write, and maybe some classes like the cleric or the wizard... but it would have to think about tthat
even then its interesting the notion that it might be a lot more literate than the usual fantasy world (lets rememebr even today there is agreat % of illiteracy in the world)
Something I have been arguing before...
It doesn't make sense to have extensive literacy level in a world where people don't have things to read (and I am not talking about street signs etc. as those can be easily replaced with pictograms). This pretty much requires printing press to be in common use.
This apparently has been invented in Golarion but is still only a minor local phenomenon.
There are of course also cultural matters, some cultures might openly frown literacy or limit it to only some social classes (in medieval times, a proper knight would not degrade himself by knowing the trade of a common scribe...and peasants of course didn't need to know how to read or write).
If we take historical Europe as an example (though this does apply quite well to rest of the world too), in medieval culture I'd say wizards, clerics and monks would know to read/write, paladins and bards would have rudimentary literacy and depending on culture so would aristocrats, experts, adepts, sorcerers and rogues. For others, use of skill points would be necessary.
In renaissance it is more widespread but still, besides barbarians I'd say at least commoners, warriors, fighters and rangers should be illiterate (unless they spend skill points) and most people would still have only rudimentary reading level (rough equivalent of modern 7- or 8-years olds).
About that cleric teaching kids to read and write...why? Why should a street kid or a peasant need to know how to read or write? What would he be reading? In modern era it does make sense because there is lots of reading material commonly available and the society operates in the way that being able to read is a necessity, but this is still relatively recent development.
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Magdalena, good points, but I think there's a distinction to be made between Christian literacy and the gods of Golarion. Many of the Golarion churches would actively promote literacy in the flock, not just the clergy, as part of doctrine. Especially Abadar, Asmodeus, Shelyn, Irori and Nethys (perversely, I can see the faithful of Asmodeus having the highest rate of literacy as a means to secure contracts).
I'm still curious though, how James could claim a higher degree of literacy when there doesn't seem to be any infrastructure in place to provide reading materials. From what I can gather the people of Golarion are keen on journals and spellbooks as the main repository of the written word. It's funky. There should be a popular body of quotable work that's available to the general population. An epic poem, a bible, something culturally cohesive.
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Creative Director
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Something I have been arguing before...
It doesn't make sense to have extensive literacy level in a world where people don't have things to read (and I am not talking about street signs etc. as those can be easily replaced with pictograms).
This is true. That said... there are lots of street signs and books in most of Golarion's civilized nations. The town of Sandpoint, for example, not only has a bookstore but also a signpost out front with a written message for travelers to read.
Taking historical Europe in medieval culture are an example is not quite on the money, again, since Golarion is based on an amalgam of inspirations not only from medieval Europe but also the ancient world, mythical worlds, the Renaissance period, and even modern day.
Taking historical Europe in medieval culture are an example is not quite on the money, again, since Golarion is based on an amalgam of inspirations not only from medieval Europe but also the ancient world, mythical worlds, the Renaissance period, and even modern day.
I'd also like to point out that medieval Europe is kind of an outlier as far as literacy rates go. Historically, during much of the history of Earth, a goodly percentage of the population has been literate. Certainly nothing like the literacy rate we have these days, but also certainly not nearly as bad as it was during the Dark Ages.
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I would like to toss in a quick question. Not literacy but perhaps related. This question is concerning people’s fluency in multiple languages. Now I understand if an Elf has elvish and common to start with for free. Dwarves have Dwarvish and common for free to start with. Etc.
This makes sense. If you are an “ex pat” at the minimum you usually know your own native tongue as well as the local languages (I know there are lots of exceptions especially small tight knit communities of a foreign ethnicity)
From what I understand, “common” is actually the language of Taldor, or Taldoran.
Would it not make sense for a starting Chelaxian character to be fluent in both Chelaxian and Taldoran? Here in the US people usually speak one language namely English (I know it could also be Spanish) However in contrast to the US, in Europe it is much more common for people to speak two to three or more languages. The degree of fluency varies of course.
My only thought is this. If you are a demi human (elf dwarf Halfling gnome) you start with two languages, your native language and the “ common “ Taldoran tongue.
If you start as a human of a particular culture- say Chelaxian, Garundi or Keleshite, wouldn’t you start with your native regional language, and the common tongue?
I realize you can be a chelaxian form Chelax Korvosa, and Andoran among other places.
I plan to house rule this in my own games. What do you all think?
Montalve, I enjoyed your question regarding literacy of the people of Golarion. As a DM/Player, I tend to go a little bit overboard is trying to make the world I am playing in a little bit more believable. In respect to your question there is an article in the Spring 2008 issue of Kobold Quarterly, #4.The title of the article is "Lessons from Arabia" by Jaye Sonia. Basically it brings out many of the same or similar issues that were brought out here. One point is that you might consider Common as more of a Trade language than an actual language that can express abstract concepts. An example would be if I went to Mexico and tried to discuss metaphysical concepts with a merchant. Would either of us understand what the other was trying to say? But if we were discussing the cost of a rug or tapestry we would understand well enough.
My point is that I agree that there might be room in an inhouse game for a trade language and for PC's to understand more than one language. Of course there is always the use of spells or skills that will cover most encounters.
I hope this has made sense. I wish you all a long and happy life.
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I think Taldor is the same as Chelaxian. The accents and the usage might vary, but they're both Common. However, both cultures have hoity reputations, so they likely have a more proper form of Common when speaking in refined circles. Common is probably Cockney to the Chelaxian/Taldor King's English.
And Seoni is Eliza Doolittle ;)
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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If you want to make the campaign more isolated, ala Ravenloft, you could make places where Taldor/Common isn't the 'default' language (ala Orsion) be one where the PCs speak Taldor, (to make inter-party communication easier) but the rank and file don't.
Or to replicate the 'regional aspect' you could require intelligence checks for more esoteric concepts. Chelaxian Common might have more elaborate terms for contracts, or ranks, while Andoran might have more than one word for freedom. (My Own Kind of Freedom?)
To use a real world example. If I come home with a pair of Pathfinder minis when I was just to pick up the SW SAGA book, I can look at my Roommate and shrug and say "I failed my will save vs minis." My roommate will understnad. I say that at work, most of my coworkers will go 'huh?'
Also depends on the group. My players are mostly all 'old school' so tehy expect common to be, well, common.
Taking historical Europe in medieval culture are an example is not quite on the money, again, since Golarion is based on an amalgam of inspirations not only from medieval Europe but also the ancient world, mythical worlds, the Renaissance period, and even modern day.
True, and as such some levity should be taken...however the point remains that large parts of population do not develop skills they don't have that much use for, and to use reading one must have something to read (and since pictograms could replace many of the street signs and so forth, basing them as main driving force for spread of literacy is like putting a cart in front of a horse...)
Here of course different areas would work differently...in larger towns, especially in ones with churches generally favoring literacy more people would know how to read and write than in rural areas. Anyway, I would rule that at least NPC classes commoner and warrior do not have automatic literacy, like barbarian (doesn't affect game that much, while still making the world in my opinion a bit more sensible).
Of course another thing would be to have different levels of knowledge in languages, at least one step between nothing and fluent...
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Montalve, I enjoyed your question regarding literacy of the people of Golarion. As a DM/Player, I tend to go a little bit overboard is trying to make the world I am playing in a little bit more believable. In respect to your question there is an article in the Spring 2008 issue of Kobold Quarterly, #4.The title of the article is "Lessons from Arabia" by Jaye Sonia. Basically it brings out many of the same or similar issues that were brought out here. One point is that you might consider Common as more of a Trade language than an actual language that can express abstract concepts. An example would be if I went to Mexico and tried to discuss metaphysical concepts with a merchant. Would either of us understand what the other was trying to say? But if we were discussing the cost of a rug or tapestry we would understand well enough.
My point is that I agree that there might be room in an inhouse game for a trade language and for PC's to understand more than one language. Of course there is always the use of spells or skills that will cover most encounters.
I hope this has made sense. I wish you all a long and happy life.
thanks silverhair, and yes it did sense
i like you enjoy trying to bring some verysimilitud to my games, and was wondering this, i will try to refer to the quarterly you mentioned and see what can i find of use...James i know Golarion is an amalgam of ideas and cultures and ages... Ravenloft was also a bit like that, still one of the elements they used for horror was ignorance, you don't understand everything around you or any at all, its also true in language (itry to leaveout common as much as i can) as in written language... but i udnerstand that is not an issue in Golarion, nor is it focused on horror. still even in the real world we have a big incidency of illiteracy
- In 2000, one in five adults aged 15+ was illiterate.
- There were about 860 million illiterate adults in the world in 2000. If the current trend continues, in 2015 there will be some 800 million illiterate adults.
- It is projected that by 2015, the literacy rate will have increased to 85 per cent, below the EFA goal of 90 per cent.
- In 2000, about 70 per cent of the world’s illiterate adults lived in three regions: Sub-Saharan Africa, South and West Asia, and the Arab States and North Africa.
- East Asia and the Pacific reported an overall literacy rate of 86 per cent with an estimated total illiterate population of 185 million.
- The Latin America and Caribbean region has an illiterate population of 39 million, or 11 per cent of the total adult population.
and about why my cleric would want to teach the kids reading and writing *winks* after that follows conversion, the teachings of Iomedae... and alongside swordmanship... she is a cleric with a plan :D (and being a hero and an example in town... is helpful). Also she wants to fell useful, his companion (quasy boyfriend without rights) was named deputy... and he emntioend that the kids in town liked her, so she decided to help the town a bit more by teaching the pophans and anyone who wanted to learn. she is nice when in the good mood in bad mood... jsut ask the goblins left dead or running when she got mad.
PS: i blame work for being so late to answer :S
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Montalve, I enjoyed your question regarding literacy of the people of Golarion. As a DM/Player, I tend to go a little bit overboard is trying to make the world I am playing in a little bit more believable. In respect to your question there is an article in the Spring 2008 issue of Kobold Quarterly, #4.The title of the article is "Lessons from Arabia" by Jaye Sonia.
Thanks Silerhair for the reference, its a great article, it brough to mind some of earlier ideas about speaking languages and what was refeerd in Ravenloft for isolation...
but seeing it in contexts, and being narrated as an experience is actually good...
he give some good ideas to do this, i think i will try to use this more often :)
literacy is a bit different... but i will use a similar idea :)