Homosexuality in Golarion

[thejeff]

Matthew Morris wrote:

Thank you for the clarification RS, I didn't remember off the top of my head when it was removed from the DSMIV.

Directly, if Inquisitor Ivan above was 'healing' the people and they 'reverted' later, than is it an intentionally evil act? If they didn't have side effects or damage, is it still evil?

And if it is always evil... then wouldn't things like the girdle of gender change also radiate evil?

Then.. What about baleful polymorph? It is changing the person's mind, permanently, so why doens't it have the evil descriptor?

See, I look at these as good storylines to tell, in the context of Golarion.

Why don't all attack spells have the "evil" descriptor?

Because it's assumed you're using them on enemies. Unlike spells that actually tap into "evil powers", it's your choice of targets and reasons that make you evil. It's going to be vanishingly rare that you'll use baleful polymorph on someone for their own good.

As for good storylines, I'm wary of storylines that are based around "These people are doing evil things and they must be stopped, but they're really good. Not just think they're good, but they really are good, despite the horrible things they're doing that must be stopped."

[RadiantSophia]

Matthew Morris wrote:

Thank you for the clarification RS, I didn't remember off the top of my head when it was removed from the DSMIV.

Directly, if Inquisitor Ivan above was 'healing' the people and they 'reverted' later, than is it an intentionally evil act? If they didn't have side effects or damage, is it still evil?

And if it is always evil... then wouldn't things like the girdle of gender change also radiate evil?

Then.. What about baleful polymorph? It is changing the person's mind, permanently, so why doens't it have the evil descriptor?

See, I look at these as good storylines to tell, in the context of Golarion.

Sorry, I removed the post you are responding to, as I feel I was unnecessarily agitating.

Having personally had people try to change my (lack of) gender identity and (lack of) sexual orientation, I can say it FELT wrong to my state of being. I have to assume that a gay person would feel the same way about someone trying to turn them straight. Does that make it evil? If not, does that make me evil? Can we both be good?

[Ross Byers]

I cleaned up some posts ion the hope of getting this thread back on topic. If you want to discuss the Alignment of Monarchies or Feminism in Golarion, or something like that, please make a thread of that.

[Matthew Morris]

But it's not about 'attacking' people. IT's about what draws the line when something goes to evil.

If I'm reading you correctly, it is the idea of changing (violating for a more extreme) a person's body or mind to what the caster/shrink thinks is 'better'. A serial killer or other sociopath being feebleminded or baleful polymorphed into a hamster might be more merciful than killing them or imprisoning them for life. Likewise, a good bit of mind magic might 'edit' something traumatic from someone's memory. In both cases someone's mind is being altered non-consentually.

In the Emperor Joker storyline, Bruce's mind was shattered. Kal-el took all the trauma into himself, to help Bruce's mind heal. Sin Eating is an ancient concept as well. In both cases it is modifying the person. How is this different than Inquisitor Ivan 'healing' Billy?

Well there's one difference, Billy is consenting.

In a recent X-men storyline Legion got reality warping powers. He gave most everyone in the book a complete second past, that didn't disappear when the reality returned to normal. Emma offered free complimentary mindwipes to everyone affected. Again, consentual vs. Non-consentual.

"As for good storylines, I'm wary of storylines that are based around "These people are doing evil things and they must be stopped, but they're really good. Not just think they're good, but they really are good, despite the horrible things they're doing that must be stopped."

See, that's where you and I differ in story telling, I guess. I don't know if you've read Proven Guilty but for Molly Carpenter, that fits her to a T.

[Set]

Matthew Morris wrote:

Then.. What about baleful polymorph? It is changing the person's mind, permanently, so why doens't it have the evil descriptor?

That's just a flavor-to-mechanics fail, IMO, and has more to do with how no two people in the history of ever will agree on an alignment discussion. The most soul-destroying body-horror-ing spells in the game, spells like dominate person and baleful polymorph, aren't even *considered* for the [evil] descriptor, because the [evil] descriptor is mostly used as shorthand for 'spell that uses non-evil negative energy to do non-evil things.'

As long as the flavor and mechanics of anything to do with alignment are a muddled inconsistent mess, any sort of conversation about them is going to lead to people talking across each other.

But, IMO, using shapechanging or mind-altering magics to force people to conform is no less 'evil' than strapping someone down and brainwashing them and surgically altering them to be the sort of person you want them to be. In a world where mind and body altering magics do exist, I am sure that somebody somewhere has attempted this very thing (and perhaps not even in a gender-appropriateness context, I could see a Chel conjurer who ends up with a tiefling child attempting to use magic to 'de-tiefling' the child, both through transmutation magics to handle the physical appearance issues, and enchantment / necromancy magic to alter the childs behavior or the nature of its spirit, and turn it into a 'proper' human child).

That level of magic, for the most part, might be out of reach of the most superstitious or backwards sorts of folk, and that might limit the occurence of this sort of thing in Golarion, where the strongest magical societies might also be the most cosmopolitan and the least likely to have folk overly concerned about gender roles.

On the other hand, one Golarion place I could see such a thing happening would be Irrisen. Female children inherit (and are encouraged to learn witchcraft and seem to find Patrons pretty darn easily...). A high ranking witch who has had trouble conceiving, and 'doesn't want to go through *that* again!' after finally delivering her child might be very disappointed to have birthed a boy, and seek magical alternatives to make that boy-child into a girl-child, capable of rising in the ranks of the White Witches. She might even think it to the child's advantage, and not just something to protect her own reputation (since having a boy, little more than a slave-monger to keep the lessers in check, and fated to never be anyone of true import, could be seen as a sign of weakness or ill-auspice, among her cutthroat fellow Winter Witches).

In the other direction, a Winter Witches rivals might find out that she's pregnant and attempt to covertly curse her to have a boy-child, both to shame her and to cut down on the potential power of her house, in the longer-term (since winter witches regularly seem to be fully healthy and functional at one hundred years of age, a longer term view would make sense). The child, born female, but transformed by the curse to a boy in the womb, might end up having transgendered qualities, and perhaps even a (discouraged by their culture) knack for witchcraft (since the nameless Patron of the Winter Witches might recognize his birth gender, and not the one that has been imposed upon him) that he has to hide from even his own family.

He might leave Irrisen to go adventuring, able to function freely as a Witch outside of his own culture, and perhaps initially identify internally as female, and seek some sort of magical solution to his body-gender-issue, only to, over the years of adventuring, decide that he's not the one with the problem, that it's his gender-role-limiting Jadwiga family and culture that have the problem, and that he shouldn't have to change his body just to fit their preconceptions about who has the right to be a witch and who doesn't.

[Matthew Morris]

RadiantSophia wrote:

Having personally had people try to change my (lack of) gender identity and (lack of) sexual orientation, I can say it FELT wrong to my state of being. I have to assume that a gay person would feel the same way about someone trying to turn them straight. Does that make it evil? If not, does that make me evil? Can we both be good?

Amusingly I didn't read it as agitating.

IRL? Honestly I don't know. Both someone trying to 'fix' a gay person, and a person who is comfortable in their sexuality can be working from good. To me it's a consent issue.

"Hey buddy, I've a new med coming out. It's called "Straight-you-out!" Want to try it?"

"No thanks."

That's the end of discussion as far as I'm concerned.

In game mechanics? IT really depends on what the line is. Modify memory could be used to (for example) remove rape trauma, or instill it. I'd say it is the consent aspect that makes it good or evil.

Inquisitor Ivan helps his friend Billy 'get over' his feelings for men, because Billy wants it? Good.
Inquisitor Ivan hunts down billy in Straightland to help him conform to the law? Neutral. (Inquisitor Ivan helps him fleee Straightland? Still Neutral as he's enforcing the 'no gheys allowed in straightland' law.)
Inquisitor Ivan drags him kicking and screaming to Straigits'R'Us? Evil.

[Matthew Morris]

Just wanted to reply to Set's post to say that those gave me some interesting adventuring ideas.

one in mind

A tiefling Chelaxian exile who finds out that he's a tiefling because of the attack of a rival, not his family. He was still thrown out by his parents, still made his way on his own, but now finds out that if it wasn't for that person, he'd have had the title and all. Now does he forgive his family, or hate them and the person who cursed him in the womb?

[Ambrosia Slaad]

Matthew Morris wrote:

Directly, if Inquisitor Ivan above was 'healing' the people and they 'reverted' later, than is it an intentionally evil act? If they didn't have side effects or damage, is it still evil?

Yes. Is it evil, Evil, or EVIL? Probably it's a case-by-case basis. Performing a small evil act in the attempt to perform a greater good does not erase the evil of the act.

Matthew Morris wrote:

And if it is always evil... then wouldn't things like the girdle of gender change also radiate evil?

No, no more than a hammer. That hammer can be used to forge a plow or wagon wheel pin, or cave in someone's skull. We've already seen an NPC

Spoiler:

Filario Grantsuem, in Curse of the Lady's Light

who used a girdle for one means and unintentionally/unexpectedly received happiness from the results.

Matthew Morris wrote:

Then.. What about baleful polymorph? It is changing the person's mind, permanently, so why doens't it have the evil descriptor?

It has a chance of causing identity death, but it's not a given. A resourceful party could still find non-evil uses for it. Again, I'd consider the caster's intent for evil vs. non-evil, not the item.

Matthew Morris wrote:

See, I look at these as good storylines to tell, in the context of Golarion.

With the right GM and the right players. It could also be a tool for the GM to cause distress and harm to players for whom such elements are a trigger... if the player is dealing with racism/sexism/whatever constantly in everyday life, they probably want to escape from that for a few hours in the RPG.

Edit: Faster-than-me thread ninjas. {shakes fist}

[Matthew Morris]

Ambrosia Slaad wrote:

With the right GM and the right players. It could also be a tool for the GM to cause distress and harm to players for whom such elements are a trigger... if the player is dealing with racism/sexism/whatever constantly in everyday life, they probably want to escape from that for a few hours in the RPG.

Edit: Faster-than-me thread ninjas. {shakes fist}

With the right GM and right players, anything can trigger that. From hillbilly imbred ogres, to a cursed sword of berserking causing the PC to slaughter his friends. Hells I did it by accident once by using a choice of phrase that triggered a friend at the table. (I knew she was an incest survivor, I didn't know that he called her 'Daddy's little girl' when he assaulted her).

(snipped the rest, because I feel I'd already rehashed those arguments)

[RadiantSophia]

To paraphrase:

Evil, I can't define it, but I know what it is when I see it.

Sorry, bad paladin joke, but I couldn't help it.

[Ambrosia Slaad]

Matthew Morris wrote:

Both someone trying to 'fix' a gay person, and a person who is comfortable in their sexuality can be working from good. To me it's a consent issue.

In the same way that Golarion healers might still use leeches or draining humors or trepanning to attempt healing, yeah, I could buy that. But Wisdom, something an inquisitor/cleric/druid should possess higher-than-norm levels in, also reminds "To thine own self be true" when it brings no harm to anyone.

Matthew Morris wrote:

Modify memory could be used to (for example) remove rape trauma, or instill it.

Memory of the actual event, maybe. The imprinted trauma/PTSD left on the survivor? Nope, that'd remain. The survivor would probably be worse off afterwards, because all the negative emotions, reactions, and triggers remained, but they wouldn't know why they were having them. I'd also suggest a high Wis PC/NPC would be wise enough to likely figure this out before making an attempt at a short-sighted easy fix.

Matthew Morris wrote:

I'd say it is the consent aspect that makes it good or evil.

Evil acts remain evil regardless if the individual consents. Murdering one person to save a thousand still remains evil. Sacrificing one person's/a few innocents' identities/ orientations to support and preserve some arbitrary or traditional law for the law & social order's sake is still evil.

Matthew Morris wrote:

Inquisitor Ivan helps his friend Billy 'get over' his feelings for men, because Billy wants it? Good.

Inquisitor Ivan hunts down billy in Straightland to help him conform to the law? Neutral. (Inquisitor Ivan helps him fleee Straightland? Still Neutral as he's enforcing the 'no gheys allowed in straightland' law.)

Again, a high WIS inquisitor would probably remind themselves beforehand that 1) they should do no harm to the innocent "patient," 2) the expedient/easiest path is often not the best path, and 3) is the inquisitor really acting in the person's and deity's best interest, or some selfish/personal reason. Regardless if the inquisitor is of Erastil's faith or another non-evil faith, his deity recognizes that Shelyn holds the portfolio of Love. And a simple Know (religion) check should remind the inquistor that Shelyn considers non-hetero consensual Love to be just as valid as hetero Love.

[James Sutter]

Adam Daigle wrote:

I don't want to be a wet blanket, but most of the last 2 pages of this thread have been about many things, but those things have not been homosexuality in Golarion. Other topics and real-world discussions have different threads and sections of our messageboards.

Aren't flumphs basically sentient wet blankets? I mean, just look at your avatar!

[Don Juan de Doodlebug]

Gay goblins make great firefighters.

That is all.

[Pillbug Toenibbler]

James Sutter wrote:

Adam Daigle wrote:

I don't want to be a wet blanket...

Aren't flumphs basically sentient wet blankets? I mean, just look at your avatar!

"Let he who is without amphibious qualities cast the first snark."

Flumpfs've got spikes and regurgitate acid too. Downright kinky if you ask me. And you don't want to know the sights I've seen on Free Pancake Day.

Edit: Great, now I'm pondering about how to make a "tiefling" goblin species, except with flumpf instead of infernal ancestry.

[Jeff Erwin]

Re "modify memory" and trauma.

Um, if you're talking about PTSD, EMDR is pretty effective and that basically what it does - rejigger the memory so it gets processed like others rather than being raw and continually present.

to quote the spell:
"change the details of a memory of an event the subject actually experienced"

It seems like "details" ought to include emotional content, including feelings of fear, anger, or helplessness.

I do think this would be a valid therapy technique in Golarion. However, sexuality is not based on trauma, and can't be changed or excised based on formative memories.

[Mikaze]

James Sutter wrote:

Adam Daigle wrote:

I don't want to be a wet blanket, but most of the last 2 pages of this thread have been about many things, but those things have not been homosexuality in Golarion. Other topics and real-world discussions have different threads and sections of our messageboards.

Aren't flumphs basically sentient wet blankets? I mean, just look at your avatar!

I'd write something supporting/exploring flumph/humanoid romantic relationships but I honestly can't get past the battery acid smell.

Sorry team.

[Judy Bauer]

Mikaze wrote:

I'd write something supporting/exploring flumph/humanoid romantic relationships but I honestly can't get past the battery acid smell.

Sorry team.

Don't worry, you already did!

[Jeff Erwin]

If they're anything like jellyfish in individual variation, flumphs are really quite beautiful.

[Mikaze]

Judy Bauer wrote:

Mikaze wrote:

I'd write something supporting/exploring flumph/humanoid romantic relationships but I honestly can't get past the battery acid smell.

Sorry team.

Don't worry, you already did!

Man, the Internet doesn't forget anything!

adds a cecaelia to that big post as a friendly non-battery-acid-smelling compromise ;)

EDIT-Is there anything in particular anyone would want to see out of such a character? Any specific gender, orientation, relationship dynamic, etc.? All of the others are pretty much set in stone, save for that one.

@Jeff Erwin:

Jellyfish tangent:

Thank you so much for that Tumblr link. Absolutely agreed on just how beautiful those guys(and a lot of other sea life) can be. The clear bioluminescent species like this were a big part of what inspired the Aquoreal agathion I turned in for Wayfinder #8. "Alien and beautiful" is something I'd love to see more of in general, amongst the celestials or elsewhere. :)

And now I can't get the idea of elegant, bioluminescent "bishounen" flumphs out of my head...

[TwoDee]

Mikaze wrote:

James Sutter wrote:

Adam Daigle wrote:

I don't want to be a wet blanket, but most of the last 2 pages of this thread have been about many things, but those things have not been homosexuality in Golarion. Other topics and real-world discussions have different threads and sections of our messageboards.

Aren't flumphs basically sentient wet blankets? I mean, just look at your avatar!

I'd write something supporting/exploring flumph/humanoid romantic relationships but I honestly can't get past the battery acid smell.

Sorry team.

My girlfriend has actually been wanting to play an aberrant-blooded sorcerer with this exact backstory for a while. Basically, the topic came up of "how the hell could you justify an aberrant-blooded sorcerer without a horrible parental rape backstory?" The answer was that daddy was a very lonely Varisian farmer and mommy was the space jellyfish who came to warn him about Nyarlathotep, and they really hit it off and one thing led to another and things got kind of out of hand.

Also, being descended from a flumph turns the long, noodly reach limbs bloodline power from disgusting to adorable.

EDIT: I mean, imagine the hugs!

[pres man]

TwoDee wrote:

Mikaze wrote:

James Sutter wrote:

Adam Daigle wrote:

I don't want to be a wet blanket, but most of the last 2 pages of this thread have been about many things, but those things have not been homosexuality in Golarion. Other topics and real-world discussions have different threads and sections of our messageboards.

Aren't flumphs basically sentient wet blankets? I mean, just look at your avatar!

I'd write something supporting/exploring flumph/humanoid romantic relationships but I honestly can't get past the battery acid smell.

Sorry team.

My girlfriend has actually been wanting to play an aberrant-blooded sorcerer with this exact backstory for a while. Basically, the topic came up of "how the hell could you justify an aberrant-blooded sorcerer without a horrible parental rape backstory?" The answer was that daddy was a very lonely Varisian farmer and mommy was the space jellyfish who came to warn him about Nyarlathotep, and they really hit it off and one thing led to another and things got kind of out of hand.

Also, being descended from a flumph turns the long, noodly reach limbs bloodline power from disgusting to adorable.

EDIT: I mean, imagine the hugs!

Thanks for this image.

[Mikaze]

TwoDee wrote:

My girlfriend has actually been wanting to play an aberrant-blooded sorcerer with this exact backstory for a while. Basically, the topic came up of "how the hell could you justify an aberrant-blooded sorcerer without a horrible parental rape backstory?" The answer was that daddy was a very lonely Varisian farmer and mommy was the space jellyfish who came to warn him about Nyarlathotep, and they really hit it off and one thing led to another and things got kind of out of hand.

Also, being descended from a flumph turns the long, noodly reach limbs bloodline power from disgusting to adorable.

EDIT: I mean, imagine the hugs!

Aberrant sorcerer/ALIEN LOVE tangent:

Ha, I'm in a similar boat with that abberant sorc/heavens oracle I want to play someday. Different alien parent, but the same general sentiment with the "caring and consensual interplanetary relationship". Imagined the alien as being a bit closer to the guys from The Abyss with tentacles than straight up flumphs.

A huge part of the fun she'll probably have with such a character is planning and playing out all the gradual changes as she gains more sorcerer levels. Long Limbs alone can be represented in so many ways. :)

EDIT-Hunting down my notes from another forum on my phone, will plug in this spot

Spoilered copy/paste for length:

I keep fiddling around with my change gameplan. Have an aberrant sorcerer/heavens oracle character that's waiting for the right campaign.

Goes in a different direction from Lovecraft and the usual aberrant types though. Whatever alien-as-hell being parked in this character's family tree was also incredibly benign. Less Cthulu, more "sea angels" from The Abyss. Except from space. With tentacles. And other stuff.

Phase 1 - Appears entirely human save for a slight sickly blue/green tint to his skin.

Phase 2 - All of his hair falls out. White of his eyes become light blue. Starts "sweating" a lot.

Phase 3 - Each of his arms burst into a mass of five thin tentacles. Each tentacle by itself is too weak to act as its own limb; only by acting together do they have the functional equality of a humanoid arm. Eventually he'll figure out how to wind these tentacles together, slide some Sajan-style sleeves over them, leaving only the tips visible and passing for fingers. Ties into the Long Limbs ability.

Phase 4 - Skin deepens in blue-green tones, overshadowing the normal human tones and actually looking more healthy. Slits along his forehead and temples. The back of his head elongates.

Phase 5 - Skin fully changes color to its blue-green hue. Skin becomes permanently slick as his body breathes in the moisture of the atmosphere, but never stains or soaks clothing or other absorbant materials. Slits open to reveal extra eyes either located above his natural eyes and running back in a row along the length of his head or placed assymetrically about his upper face. Bioluminescent patterns begin to form on his skin. Nose flattens. Ears shrink.

Phase 6 - Back of head continues to extend backwards into a long, thick tentacle housing portions of his brain and extrasensory organs tying into Oracle-granted abilities. Some of his aberrant organs and nervous system become luminescent through his skin when he casts spells. Nose is gone completely, leaving only the thin slits of his nostrils. External ears are gone, leaving the exposed holes.

Phase 7 - Legs burst into masses of tentacles just like the arms. By this point the Heavens Oracle revelation that grants permanent levitation means he won't need them for walking any more.

Phase 8 - Head and torso continue to stretch and twist to their final shape.

Extra aesthetics: All summoned celestial creatures have extra eyes and the same blue-green slickened skin from his final form. They all have the rough shape of their "vanilla" counterparts, but always look like they're alien analogues.

Using the Tongues oracle curse to uncontrollably speak in mixtures of Celestial, Aquan, Auran, or Aklo when that curse kicks off.

If playing in Golarion, worships Desna as his primary deity.

[Ambrosia Slaad]

Mikaze wrote:

And now I can't get the idea of elegant, bioluminescent "bishounen" flumphs out of my head...

Immortal elegant bioluminescent "bishounen" flumphs, who maybe taught the samsarans that whole reincarnation thing?

[Mikaze]

pres man wrote:

Thanks for this image.

Still a better love story than Twilight.

Ambrosia Slaad wrote:

Mikaze wrote:

And now I can't get the idea of elegant, bioluminescent "bishounen" flumphs out of my head...

Immortal elegant bioluminescent "bishounen" flumphs, who maybe taught the samsarans that whole reincarnation thing?

Oh my dear God I am in love with this now.

These guys just jumped to the top of my shortlist for alien angel inspirations. :)

edit-I mean c'mon. Look at them.

[Ambrosia Slaad]

Ambrosia Slaad wrote:

Mikaze wrote:

And now I can't get the idea of elegant, bioluminescent "bishounen" flumphs out of my head...

Immortal elegant bioluminescent "bishounen" flumphs, who maybe taught the samsarans that whole reincarnation thing?

Correction: Immortal elegant bioluminescent "bishounen" flumphs who laugh and say "You're gonna need a bigger oma/boat."

[Azaelas Fayth]

Mikaze wrote:

pres man wrote:

Thanks for this image.

Still a better love story than Twilight.

Agreed!

Mikaze wrote:

Ambrosia Slaad wrote:

Mikaze wrote:

And now I can't get the idea of elegant, bioluminescent "bishounen" flumphs out of my head...

Immortal elegant bioluminescent "bishounen" flumphs, who maybe taught the samsarans that whole reincarnation thing?

Oh my dear God I am in love with this now.

These guys just jumped to the top of my shortlist for alien angel inspirations. :)

You to?

[Mikaze]

Yeah, for srs. "Angelic" is one of the first things that comes to mind looking at a lot of these. :)

So seriously, did anyone have any preferences when it comes to cecaelia characters? Writing that one to order.

basic rundown of what's in that megapost for certain already:

While all of these characters are going to be largely positive, some will have their warts though none will be vilified for the sexuality or relationship dynamics.

Qadiran merchant-queen type and her related characters - bisexual, polygamous, D/s overtones

Gender-fluid Arshean orcale/male half-orc fighter couple - Bisexual, gender fluid identity

male half-elf bard/female half-orc barbarian couple from Nirmathas - heterosexual, polyamorous

female former hellknight-current paladin of Iomedae tiefling/male human cleric of Iomedae - heterosexual, D/s

Female elf cleric of Abadar/Female Ouat dwarf monk married couple from Osirion - homosexual, married

transgendered male Varisian detective/female Shoanti bodyguard from Kaer Maga - transgender, heterosexual

trangendered female Mwangi shamanistic head of a small tribe - transgender

male Kellid ranger-barbarian/male Kellid ranger-witch couple from the Realm of the Mammoth Lords - homosexual, finding place in family structure

male Garundi magus and male Varisian bard friends-with-benefits - bisexual, polyamorous, possibly geared towards Road to El Dorado fangirls/boys

genderless aasimar "mysterious city hero" type, female human hunchbacked expert - difficult asexual "courtly romantic" relationship

female Shelynite planetar angel/female evangelist kyton couple - homosexual, D/s

female Calistrian cleric/intersexed tiefling Shelynite paladin - bisexuality, conflicting relationship desires

Ambrosia Slaad wrote:

Correction: Immortal elegant bioluminescent "bishounen" flumphs who laugh and say "You're gonna need a bigger oma/boat."

is genuinely awed

edit-fixed post

VVVVV-you monster

[TanithT]

This probably makes me a Very Bad Person, but I like jellyfish so much that if an alien glowy celestial angelic jellyfish-thing showed up in front of me, I would be licking my lips while staring at its tentacles and thinking much too hard about soy sauce and ponzu.

[Judy Bauer]

Fey Revisited, when it comes out, should provide another fun source of fodder for exploring gender and sexuality on Golarion.

Spoiler:

Several types of fey present as all male or all female, but reproduce in wildly varying and often asexual manners. (I don't EVEN know what Erastil would think of a PC marrying a creature from another plane who reproduces by brooding over a crafted baby in a lake bottom for months. Well, maybe "Who's minding the farm in the meanwhile?!") Of course, there are perils to dating amoral creatures that don't fully understand mortality and love pranks...

[Mikaze]

Judy Bauer wrote:

Fey Revisited, when it comes out, should provide another fun source of fodder for exploring gender and sexuality on Golarion.

** spoiler omitted **

Looking forward to this and the ensuing fun in this thread. :) The spoilered bit sounds really fairy-tale-ish.

no pugwampi love plz

Y'know...satyrs were explicitly stated to go for guys as well as gals in the very first setting-neutral Bestiary. (they did seem to come across as selfish lovers though)

[DM_aka_Dudemeister]

Mikaze wrote:

Judy Bauer wrote:

Fey Revisited, when it comes out, should provide another fun source of fodder for exploring gender and sexuality on Golarion.

** spoiler omitted **

Looking forward to this and the ensuing fun in this thread. :) The spoilered bit sounds really fairy-tale-ish.

no pugwampi love plz

Y'know...satyrs were explicitly stated to go for guys as well as gals in the very first setting-neutral Bestiary. (they did seem to come across as selfish lovers though)

The phrase for making love to a pugwampi is "getting unlucky".

[Azaelas Fayth]

I would love to see a 0HD Fey Race... Maybe one that is all Male to go with the all Female Changelings.

[The Minis Maniac]

Okay something I think should be addressed. How would someone be Transgendered in Golarion among the common Races.
1) The gender identity is there and dressing up as the opposite gender, but still has the physical genitalia of the original gender.
2) Many many many girdles of gender change floating around.
3) A limited form of permanent polymorph

I am truly curious as to how it would be.

[TanithT]

The Minis Maniac wrote:

Okay something I think should be addressed. How would someone be Transgendered in Golarion among the common Races.

1) The gender identity is there and dressing up as the opposite gender, but still has the physical genitalia of the original gender.
2) Many many many girdles of gender change floating around.
3) A limited form of permanent polymorph

I am truly curious as to how it would be.

The potentially cool thing is that in an advanced magic using society, no one would have to suffer the pain of being transgendered and in the wrong gendered body for your brain architecture.

However, depending on the economic availability of magic and what it might 'cost' to use or create such a magic item or cast such a spell, the underprivileged might not be able to afford it. We have a clear parallel in the modern world, where medically prescribed hormones and good surgery does exist, but not everyone can afford it, especially if they are not passable enough to get and hold a job while presenting as their preferred gender.

Before you say, but why don't they get a job while presenting as the birth gender they feel highly dysphoric about, ask some transgendered people how very soul-destroying that can be. I'm not sure I can explain it as well as someone can who's been there, despite the fact that I've had more than one friend who has been faced with this choice. A disproportionate number of trans women go into sex work, in part because they don't have a lot of other options. A disproportionate number of GLBT youth (especially trans) commit suicide. It is a majorly depressing situation to be in if you are trans and have little hope of being able to fully transition or to pass convincingly.

There are a small number of people whose voluntary identity is transgendered, bi-gendered, gender fluid, genderqueer, etc. They do not wish to transition but actively wish and choose to have characteristics of both sexes or to present as both genders. This is much rarer than being transgendered, but interestingly it is something seen regularly in the anthropological literature in association with shamanism and the spirit world.

A pastime for the rich and bored might be gender swapping for sheer amusement value. You could confuse the heck out of your PC's by having an NPC who does this and then forgets what gender s/he is this week, or appears as a totally different gender than s/he did last week.

[Ambrosia Slaad]

The Minis Maniac wrote:

Okay something I think should be addressed. How would someone be Transgendered in Golarion among the common Races.

1) The gender identity is there and dressing up as the opposite gender, but still has the physical genitalia of the original gender.
2) Many many many girdles of gender change floating around.
3) A limited form of permanent polymorph

I am truly curious as to how it would be.

1) Well, there are enough similarities to Earth cultures that Golarion probably has analogs for at least some of the hijra, two-spirit, kathoeys, sworn virgins, muxe, fa'afafine, etc. Tian Xia kabuki probably has some analog for onnagata and Cheliax opera may have for breeches roles & "adolescent boys as the girl roles" (I forget the theatrical term). There are a lot of traditional herbal remedies that have estrogenizing effects, especially on young males who haven't fully masculinized physically (and if their testosterone supply is removed). (I cant find anything on such supplements for trans men.) None of that fixes the plumbing problem though.

Varying degrees of intersex probably happen too; on Earth, the less-dominant/inactive gonads seem prone to developing cancer and hormone problems if not removed surgically. Many intersexed individuals have fertility problems or are sterile, and I'd imagine waste elimination problems could occur too for those with really unfortunate unformed/malformed genitals. Real hermaphrodism doesn't happen in Earth humans, so it probably doesn't in non-magicified Golarion humanoids either.

2) and 3) Neither of these would be affordable to commoners, and worse, both could be undone by being a bystander to an area dispel.

Spoiler:

See the Curse of Lady's Light for the malfunctioning Sorshen clone trap and one NPC in the Grey Maidens writeup. I think there is also an intersexed/trans tiefling merchant in the Magnimar book.

Edit: Plus all the important stuff I forgot that TanithT nicely covered above.

Maybe a druid really lucky with reincarnate (roll on table twice/thrice, take your pick of those)? Likely a cleric of Arshea would have a ritual/ceremony (I think I stole this idea from Mikaze or Jeff Erwin). Calistria's sacred prostitutes probably figured it out too. Maybe a new witches hex or good ol' curse? Maybe piss off/bribe the right fae/First Worlder?

[Self-plug warning]The skindancers in Wayfinder #7 can assume either gender, and reproduce as mother or father. It was cut for word count, but there is way for other humanoids to become skindancers (basically functions like a limited reincarnate). PM me for the write-up. And no gnomes are involved.[/in joke][/Self-plug warning]

[kmal2t]

I didn't read this entire thread, but I don't think "homosexuality" is that rare in RPGs. When I was younger I played a female character and since at the time I didn't want to potentially have to roleplay having sex with dudes I made her a lesbian. Obviously that plays off the whole heterosexual lesbian fantasy thing, but it still counts as homosexual. Now M4M characters? I'm going to have to guess that's pretty rare...and holy crap this thread is 53 pages? Interdasting.

[Umbranus]

XxAnthraxusxX wrote:

Is sex really something that goes down in alot of campaigns?

That very much depends on the gaming group. But I'll give some examples:

- In our Kingmaker game we've had a marriage. No sex was played out at the table but I guess everyone expects the couple to have some everytime he gets home from adventuring.
- In another game I played with another group (not PF) every pc was in a relationship, partly two PCs, partly PC/NPC we were rather explicit and everyone had fun. And I didn't mind my girlfriend roleplaying her pc having sex with another player's pc.
- Yet another game we just hinted at sex at the table but often times couples continued playing it out without the rest. Everyone knew there was sex. There we included gay sex and at least once a polymorph spell and a shapechanger were involved.
- Sometimes PCs get pregnant in games and up until now not a single one through scientific ways. So there had to have been sex.

That being said: If you don't want to include sex into your games you should invent a way in which people reproduce without sex. Because once you include married couples and/or children your campaign includes sex as well (you DO know how women get pregnant, do you). It is just about how much of it happens and how open you are about it.
And that is something a gaming group has to decide as a whole.

[TanithT]

kmal2t wrote:

Obviously that plays off the whole heterosexual lesbian fantasy thing, but it still counts as homosexual. Now M4M characters? I'm going to have to guess that's pretty rare...

Ha ha ha no. Almost all of my male characters are gay, because I am personally only attracted to male bodied, male identified people, and it's easier for me to get into the head of someone who thinks like me.

Also because just like you, I find it much more fun to watch or think about two people of the gender I am solely attracted to being sexual than involving anyone of the gender I am not attracted to.

Conventional porn is hopelessly boring to me because it is created with the default male heterosexual gaze and lingers on bits that I have no interest in looking at. M4M porn, on the other hand, only has stuff in it that I like - lots of hot men and nothing else. So yes, please. I will have that. You can keep all the bewbs; I want ALL THE WANG.

You are using the word 'heterosexual' here to include only the male heterosexual and exclude, invalidate or ignore the female heterosexual. That is a pretty classic example of the unconscious, unthinking, privileged sexism under discussion over here. It is not cool, yo. Knock it off.

[Umbranus]

TanithT wrote:

kmal2t wrote:

Obviously that plays off the whole heterosexual lesbian fantasy thing, but it still counts as homosexual. Now M4M characters? I'm going to have to guess that's pretty rare...

Ha ha ha no. Almost all of my male characters are gay, because I am personally only attracted to male bodied, male identified people, and it's easier for me to get into the head of someone who thinks like me.

Also because just like you, I find it much more fun to watch or think about two people of the gender I am solely attracted to being sexual than involving anyone of the gender I am not attracted to.

That did never keep me. personally I'm absolutely into women but I've played everything straight, gay, man, woman.That's what roleplaying is all about: You can do that are not your's in real life. Be it because its the wrong age, because you're too lawful (not running around killing), too scared. In a roleplaying game nothing bad can happen if you try something new.

But I've encountered a lot of roleplayers who frown upon cross gender play. Some of those do because they lack the imagination to pretend to be of the opposite sex.
Sure, I don't really KNOW how a gay male or a straight woman feels about (or during) sex but I can try to imagine it.
And really two PCs, who have absolutely the same stats but have different sexual desires (be it because one is gay and the other is not or because they are different sexes) could play out very different.
On the other hand two straight guys, one a fighter, one a rogue, could be nearly the same character.

disclaimer:

With the above I, in no way, want to say that gay guys have to be stereotypes, nor do I want to degrade or ridicule them by trying to play one.
I know some gay men and they are totally different. With one I knew he was gay before he came out (we shared a flat). With the other I'd never guessed before he told me. He likes to watch soccer with a bottle of beer in his hand and everything normally deemed very hetero.

[Drejk]

TanithT wrote:

This probably makes me a Very Bad Person, but I like jellyfish so much that if an alien glowy celestial angelic jellyfish-thing showed up in front of me, I would be licking my lips while staring at its tentacles and thinking much too hard about soy sauce and ponzu.

Have you seen Wayfinder #8 Bestiary section?

[Drejk]

Umbranus wrote:

But I've encountered a lot of roleplayers who frown upon cross gender play. Some of those do because they lack the imagination to pretend to be of the opposite sex.

Others frown because they had players being very-very bad at playing females. *sigh*

Slowly the trauma (I am exaggerating, I admit) passes and now I am more open to allow playing opposite sex at my table than, say, ten years ago. No one asked for that in years, however.

[Coridan]

Azaelas Fayth wrote:

I would love to see a 0HD Fey Race... Maybe one that is all Male to go with the all Female Changelings.

I was disappointed fauns weren't. Seems like a wasted opportunity.

[Umbranus]

Drejk wrote:

Umbranus wrote:

But I've encountered a lot of roleplayers who frown upon cross gender play. Some of those do because they lack the imagination to pretend to be of the opposite sex.

Others frown because they had players being very-very bad at playing females. *sigh*

Slowly the trauma (I am exaggerating, I admit) passes and now I am more open to allow playing opposite sex at my table than, say, ten years ago. No one asked for that in years, however.

In my experience bad roleplayers play bad no matter what.

If you don't let them play bad crossgender they play something else bad instead. But that may be subjective.

[RadiantSophia]

kmal2t wrote:

Now M4M characters? I'm going to have to guess that's pretty rare...and holy crap this thread is 53 pages? Interdasting.

Speaking as someone who is an outsider to the whole sex/sexuality spectrum, I can say, as for my playgroup (I'm usually the GM), it's not at all uncommon. We are a mix of male/female and gay/straight gamers, and gay PCs, regardless of gender, outnumber straight PCs.

[Jessica Price]

DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

The phrase for making love to a pugwampi is "getting unlucky".

You win all the things, my friend. All of them. :-)

[Mark Moreland]

Pugwampis (and all gremlins) for that matter have one of the oddest means of reproducing in the book. It's certainly one of the ones least compatible with interspecies breeding.

[Amaranthine Witch]

Mikaze wrote:

Yeah, for srs. "Angelic" is one of the first things that comes to mind looking at a lot of these. :)

So seriously, did anyone have any preferences when it comes to cecaelia characters? Writing that one to order.

** spoiler omitted **

Ambrosia Slaad wrote:

Correction: Immortal elegant bioluminescent "bishounen" flumphs who laugh and say

...

If you haven't written the character yet, I'd like to share an idea. A male cecaelia hedge witch and a handsome, young, Bonuwat fisherman.

I love the cecaelias. Normally, I don't like monstrous races (PC with racial HD), but I'd like to play a cecaelia someday.

Coridan wrote:

Azaelas Fayth wrote:

I would love to see a 0HD Fey Race... Maybe one that is all Male to go with the all Female Changelings.

I was disappointed fauns weren't. Seems like a wasted opportunity.

Actually, they being CR1, you can play them as 1st level characters.