My players have reached SoLS and I am worried about the abilities of one of my players. He is a 13th level human cleric of Pelor and has dedicated himself to destroying undead. He prepares regularly the Light of Wisdom spell (3rd level) from Complete Champion (+4 Level when determining what is the highest level you can affect when turning undead) and he has the Disciple of the Sun feat (spend 2 turn attempts and any undead turned is instead destroyed). This is really a good combo as theoretically, on a high turn undead roll (+4 level), he can affect 21HD of undead (Kyuss Knights = 20HD with turn resistance). I am afraid he is going to turn undead and wipe out most of the undead on the 1st level (I believe he can turn undead 8-10 times, so he could destroy 3-4 undead with good rolls).
As for Kelvos, who is nasty but only has 65 hp, he has the bolt of glory spell from Spell Compendium, which does 13d12, once you beat the spell resistance.
I know he will have trouble with the worm naga sorcerors, the overworm, and the Spell-weaver lich (I can give the latter life ward from SC through his limited wishes to prevent the turning tactic).
Now I do not want to cheat the player, he did pick his feats and spells legitimately and he has been playing for years. As written, is there any legitimate counter to these tactics without changing the npcs as written or should I just allow the player to enjoy the fruits of his feats and spells?
Just be thankful that he didn't take the Radiant Servant of Pelor prestige class...
Your player's cleric has focused his specialty against undead and I wouldn't deny him that either. This is a dungeon where he will get to shine. If you're using the module as written, Nezzarin is toast anyway. A guard out in the wide open with no range attacks isn't going to threaten the party much, although his beetles' chittering has a 120' range and may hamper them a bit. The Knights of the Worm encounter (area 12) may put up a better fight. Their tactics specify they'll pound on any divine spellcasters so having all three of them gang up on the cleric wouldn't be considered headhunting. Don't forget your player has to get some pretty good dice rolls, if those aren't going in his favor then its a completely different outcome.
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I did want to chime in on one thing that I think you should change, and/or house rule. Bolt of Glory was originally just a Glory Domain spell. Spell Compendium changed that, and it's my opinion (and my player's) that was a mistake. As is, the spell is extremely powerful for it's level, and deserves to be only a Glory domain spell. At least then it's restricted to once per day, and only if they take the Glory domain.
You could argue that the strong taint of Kyuss gives all undead inside the spire +4 (or whatever) turn resistance.
You could also add a lot more "fodder" undead, to keep the PCs from focusing all their attacks on the main bad guys. I thought it was strange, actually, that there were so few regular spawn of kyuss zombies in the place. Also - note that the kyuss worm swarms are technically not undead, nor is the overworm (if you assume he's just a giant worm). I was expecting this adventure to introduce some of Kyuss' other undead creations (something besides the kyuss zombie) - and the beetle thing didn't do it for me. You might make up kyuss-ghouls, kyuss-vampires, etc. You Libris Mortis for ideas on how to super-charge your undead.
One final thought, once the Harbinger is beaten, and the wall comes down, have tons of kyuss-zombies erupt up out of the ground and run off through the jungle night-of-the-living-dead style (headed, of course, for the nearest civilized community to feed).
Your player's cleric has focused his specialty against undead and I wouldn't deny him that either. The Knights of the Worm encounter (area 12) may put up a better fight. Their tactics specify they'll pound on any divine spellcasters so having all three of them gang up on the cleric wouldn't be considered headhunting. Don't forget your player has to get some pretty good dice rolls, if those aren't going in his favor then its a completely different outcome.
Great suggestions, keep 'em coming.
Good ideas Luz. The knights can double or triple team the cleric. Hope the rest of party bails him out!
I was also thinking if Kelvos goes first, he could lead off with blasphemy cast at 15th level (no save), so that will weaken and daze the party and follow that up with diving archons. Next round, have Kelvos lead off with prismatic spray. So if he wins initiative, Kelvos can wreck some severe damage on the party, including the cleric, and possibly TPK them. I guess it will depend on the initiative roll. Please keep the tactics coming.
DMR, good ideas, but I want to stick to the module as written and I already factored in the knights' turn resistance.
As for the bolt of glory spell, KK, I've already allowed the cleric access to it since 11th level, so I cannot houserule it now, before SoLS.
The knights can double or triple team the cleric. Hope the rest of party bails him out!
Also, to give some of the Kyuss Knights in area 12 a little edge, switch Barnos, Kardic, and/or Markath's Kyuss gifts with Nezzarin's. This way they'll get a decent initiative. Its still using the module as written, right? And if the cleric uses a holy symbol to turn, have them try a disarm attack (or maybe they could use their Improve Sunder feat, not sure how that works against items). To me, that's the first thing any intelligent undead creature would do and chances are the cleric can't match their attacks. Especially if they drop their shields to wield their bastard swords with two hands (+4 bonus on the disarm attack).
...I want to stick to the module as written and I already factored in the knights' turn resistance.
This might be perfectly fine but it might not. You PCs are using a lot of material from splat books and they sound as if their doing a very good job of making it count. If they beat the jeepers out of one adventure thats not a real issue but if they start stomping all the adventures your going to have to play back at them - likely by min maxing the monsters somewhat using all these splat books - well that or giving them a level adjustment for having access to all the splat books, that would slow their advancement down and rebalanced the game.
And if the cleric uses a holy symbol to turn, have them try a disarm attack (or maybe they could use their Improve Sunder feat, not sure how that works against items). To me, that's the first thing any intelligent undead creature would do and chances are the cleric can't match their attacks. Especially if they drop their shields to wield their bastard swords with two hands (+4 bonus on the disarm attack).
Great stuff, Luz! I had not even seen the improved sunder feat, they will get +8 bonus on the sunder attempt (+4 for feat and +4 for using 2-handed weapon). I'll have to look on the player's character sheet but I doubt he has a spare holy symbol on his sheet. Plus the imagery of an undead knight destroying the holy symbol with a sword slash will look so cool!
Thnaks for the comment, Jeremy, but so far, even with the use of the splat books, as you call them, the combat has been very dramatic and climactic with near-TPKs, so it has not unbalanced the game. Oh and my spellcasters use the SC and other splatbooks as well and the players know that, so I adapt.
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One thing I did when the group went for the front doors of the Ziggurat is have Nezzarin and others on the top level operate together. He waited just inside the inner doors and attacked as soon as the group opened them.
The eviscerator beetles tore a hole in the warriors as did the eye-bites from Nezzarin (ever meet a Fighter with a 2 Int? I did and made them roleplay the encounter by not being able to understand their comrades when they screamed pleas to them.
Top this off with a Gr Invis, teleporting Kelvos and 2 Angles of the Worm waiting to Discorporating Dive into the first to show his face and the whole came to a grinding halt at the front door
The Swords of Kyuss, bolstered by the Wormcaller, used their Invocations of the worm to great effect and the foolish Radiant Servant of the sun god got up front. Well let's just say he had the chance to have a face-to-face with his maker to whine and complain about the unfairness of it all
By the book, Bolt of Glory is too good (look in the DMG in the section about creating spells and you'll see that BoG's d12's is about the same as 3d6 of damage each. Clerics are not meant to wield the blasting damage spells much, and so I ruled that the damage was being reduced to d8's instead (still more powerful than it should be, but is useful against a smaller list of creatures than, say, Fireball is).
Although I do not change things at whim, I always reserve the right to make changes I feel are necessary to make the game fun for all, myself included.
In any case, my group's bad luck with the Ziggurat (they had to take three tries at it before they finally got it) can be chalked up to two things: failure to buff-up before going in (metagaming thinking bit them by allowing them to believe the "Doorman" wouldn't be tough) and failure to work together.
hope you have a great time running this portion of the mod - they are great
FW
Given how your cleric probably needs a VERY high initial turn check to even be able to generate 21 HD of turning, I would not worry overmuch. If his dice are kind, then great. Undead turning barring a very wide application of items all oriented on that one thing will still avail him naught at the end of the path - and there is at least one 'foreshadowing' encounter area prior to the nastiest ones that give him the clue that he will need to be able to consecrate often in order to survive. Coupled with the mutual access to splatbooks (especially the Spell Compendium) for the antagonists should ensure that a single turn check doesn't rob the main bad guys of continued existance and slaughtering of heroes.
Bolt of Glory is still a ray, and there are at least 2 easy methods of repelling those at the antagonists' disposal - spell turning and ray deflection (the latter from the Spell Compendium). So unless they burn valuable actions to de-buff the antagonists, they will find their mightiest weapons repelled in short order with but a handful of spells. Dragotha, with access to the Spell Compendium, becomes MUCH more formidable when you re-write his known spells roster - even worse since he has a healthy Use Magic Device check and carries a few 9th level spells on scroll-equivelant items...
At this point in the Age of Worms, the "super undead turning machine" is as much a matter of getting the characters to the end game, much to their benefit as players. Dragotha and Kyuss will almost certainly dispatch many characters in short order, if not all of them, repeatedly, so savor the coming character deaths. If they fail to make VERY heavy use of Sheltered Vitality to protect their brains from being masticated, they're already in deep trouble in this AP.
Good luck to you and your players - the Age of Worms tasks both sides of the screen!
I did want to chime in on one thing that I think you should change, and/or house rule. Bolt of Glory was originally just a Glory Domain spell. Spell Compendium changed that, and it's my opinion (and my player's) that was a mistake. As is, the spell is extremely powerful for it's level, and deserves to be only a Glory domain spell. At least then it's restricted to once per day, and only if they take the Glory domain.
This echoes what seems to be general consensus on many threads: bolt of glory as a general cleric spell absolutely requires all bad guys to be protected in various special ways, or else the entire campaign ends. This is absurd. The core rules call for a 7d8 damage cap for a 6th level cleric spell (15 dice, but d8's and above count as 2 dice each); bolt of glory gives you, what, a 15d12 cap? Give me a break. I'm in 100% agreement with Karui Kage: if you don't nerf the spell, then it can ONLY fill the 6th level domain slot for a cleric with the Glory domain. Otherwise, hands off.
My players know better. I've already threatened to give Belts of Battle to Kyuss and Dragotha if any of them take Bolt of Glory. I agree with the above sentiments; it should only be a domain specific spell and even then should still be subject to DM approval. In my opinion, there should never be anyone in the Age of Worms campaign with the capability of scribing this spell...otherwise, why aren't they at the forefront?
Thanks everyone for your comments. I didn't want to turn this into a post about b++%+ing about bolt of glory. IMO, it's the cleric equivalent of disintegrate (a 6th level ray spell as well, which by the way has a 40d6 cap, so find me that in the rules!). So if you wanted to modify bolt of glory, you could decrease damage to d8s as Frank suggested or add a save and make it exactly like disintegrate. As for my post, I was more worried about the cleric's turning ability than his spells.
Turin, I think said it best, if it's not a campaign breaker and serves to get you to the higher level modules, great. The BBEGs will be prepared for bolt of glory, turning, etc..
Finally, Frank, you are true evil, sending the entire first level against the party! What envy! :-) How they even survived is beyond me. I'm going to play it that if Nezzarin is in trouble, he'll go for help and alert the others, but not before.
I didn't want to turn this into a post about b~~&@ing about bolt of glory.
(Sorry, I've seen so many posts about warding against it in the past few weeks that it's become my new pet peeve.) Carry on!
Thanks everyone for your comments. I didn't want to turn this into a post about b!*%!ing about bolt of glory. IMO, it's the cleric equivalent of disintegrate (a 6th level ray spell as well, which by the way has a 40d6 cap, so find me that in the rules!). So if you wanted to modify bolt of glory, you could decrease damage to d8s as Frank suggested or add a save and make it exactly like disintegrate. As for my post, I was more worried about the cleric's turning ability than his spells.
Hey Lucendar!
Two points:
#1: Bolt of Glory originally did only d6's, not d12's See SRD Here. Even then I considered it strong, but reasonable. You might want to point this out to your player and come to some compromise as described above.
#2: Turning: I don't think you'll have too much trouble. With 8-10 turning attempts, and 2 needed to actually destroy he won't be able to get too much of that in, on average.
Assuming a High Charisma, he probably needs somewhere around a 13 to turn 20HD undead (the Knights). So 40% chance. When he does so, he turns Level + 2d6 + Charisma (+4 for that spell?) undead. That's an average of 24 or so (28 with spell).
He's pretty darn unlikely to turn/destroy more than one of the Knights (extra HD are wasted) per attempt. Let's assume he makes every other turn attempt, starting with the first.
Round 1: Use 2 turn attempts, Destroy one Knight.
Round 2: Use 2 turn attempts, Nada.
Round 3: Use 2 turn attempts, Destroy one Knight (probably already damaged by party members).
Round 4: Nada
Round 5: Probably nothing left
That's 6-8 attempts already used, with some good fortune even. That leaves 2-4 left for the whole rest of the place... I don't think you'll have too much trouble. If he shines so bright, let him.
*My* concern running this would be a) play up the visuals of his showing off, and b) how to challenge the other players while the cleric is doing his thing.
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- blushes -
Thank you, I try, snicker...
In any case, the upper level did work together, but we (co-DM and I) used reason, let then monsters buff-up before showing and let things go from there. The group didn't pre-buff themselves and that was their mistake, but ultimately they took care of Nezzarin and the Eviscerator beetles before leaving, in a piecemeal manner.
After looking through the monsters I can tell you flat out there is no way that the cleric can turn most of the undead in the place. I think the only ones I have seen so far is the:
Sword of Kyuss (14 HD, +2 Turn Resistance = would need a turn check of at least 19 to turn the thingy
Wormcaller (12 HD, +6 Turn Resistance = needs a 22+ on the Turn Check)
Knights are out of reach for a 13th level cleric (16 HD + +4 TR = not possible for a cleric of 13th level)
Eviscerator Beetles just barely possible (same as Wormcaller; needs a 22+ because of 18 HD)
The Harbinger is out of reach for a 13th level cleric (15HD & +4 TR)
Everything else is not an undead so no turning at all for them.
By the Way: The Wormnagas gaze attacks have been going through my guys like ex-lax.. er.. well you get the idea. Feeblemind is a rough spell! I'm just saying
FW
Thanks everyone for your comments. I didn't want to turn this into a post about b&##@ing about bolt of glory. IMO, it's the cleric equivalent of disintegrate (a 6th level ray spell as well, which by the way has a 40d6 cap, so find me that in the rules!). So if you wanted to modify bolt of glory, you could decrease damage to d8s as Frank suggested or add a save and make it exactly like disintegrate. As for my post, I was more worried about the cleric's turning ability than his spells.
Turin, I think said it best, if it's not a campaign breaker and serves to get you to the higher level modules, great. The BBEGs will be prepared for bolt of glory, turning, etc..
Finally, Frank, you are true evil, sending the entire first level against the party! What envy! :-) How they even survived is beyond me. I'm going to play it that if Nezzarin is in trouble, he'll go for help and alert the others, but not before.
You missed my first post, Frank. With the light of wisdom spell from Complete Champion (+4 level for turning so he turns as a 17th level cleric), all undead in the module can be affected (true, he has to roll really high). But as other posters have suggested, if he makes the rolls, I'll let him enjoy his accomplishment, though the knights will be trying to sunder his holy symbol. :-)
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You missed my first post, Frank. With the light of wisdom spell from Complete Champion (+4 level for turning so he turns as a 17th level cleric), all undead in the module can be affected (true, he has to roll really high). But as other posters have suggested, if he makes the rolls, I'll let him enjoy his accomplishment, though the knights will be trying to sunder his holy symbol. :-)
So true, mea culpa. (I don't allow anything but the first set of three Complete's and the Spell Compendium so I didn't register the effects you mentioned)
As an aside, Also consider having the Harbinger use Telekinesis to grapple the spell components and holy symbol away from the spellcasters and then thro them at the bottom of the lake of worms. That will take a little steam out... lol
FW
I like Luz' idea for the knights.
It seems to me that if I were The Harbinger, the first thing I would do in any combat with a person wearing a holy symbol is Extended Power Word Stun him. The suggested actions in the module ignore the fact that a good cleric with a good turn roll could put the Big Bad out of the fight in one round.
Generally, I would let the battle run its course even with a tricked out PC like yours. BUT, there is no reason why an intelligent monster would not be aware of its Achilles heel and act accordingly. Let him spend 2 to 8 rounds on the deck and see what happens.
If the logistics work out, Enervation (particularly Empowered) is also your friend here. But I think PWS is your answer.
Don't worry too much -- a min/mazed undead turner
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An intelligent undead can ready an action to disarm a cleric of his holy symbol (which he must use to turn undead). Next, the undead will most likely destroy it.
Howdy, Darien.
Doesn't a disarm attempt provoke an Attack of Opportunity? if I were the cleric,I'd use that AoO to turn the undead.
An intelligent undead can ready an action to disarm a cleric of his holy symbol (which he must use to turn undead). Next, the undead will most likely destroy it.Howdy, Darien.
Doesn't a disarm attempt provoke an Attack of Opportunity? if I were the cleric,I'd use that AoO to turn the undead.
Unfortunately, you can only make a melee attack as an AoO. Now, if said cleric is packing, say, a Mace of Disruption, or a Rod of Smiting perhaps, that is another matter altogether...