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The new mystery race of 4.0 seems certain now to be the dragonborn.
Personally they seem like a variation of lizardmen and not really what I would consider a core class. But I know there are players who enjoy monstrous heroes.
I was wondering, when/if Paizo goes 4.0, are there any thoughts yet on fitting the Dragonborn into the world. Or are they likely to get ignored as not being the sort of D&D Paizo enjoys producing.
Well I think the idea was less to make a lizardman, and more to make a flagship character class for the dozens of dragon spawned races they've been making as of late (half-dragons, spellscales, dragonkin, etc.) since they're all similar enough that it's probably just easier and better just to have one rules set for them to work off of. This is just my thinking here, though but it seems like since they're interested in new races that progress over their careers much as classes do, that dragons seem like a natural choice (since there's a lot of difference between a juvenile and wyrm dragon).
Their motives notwithstanding though, I think I can safely say that Paizo isn't interested in turning Golarion into 4e, no matter what happens. They may use the rules as a jumping off point to modernize the game, but the same core races from 3.5 will be core in whatever form Pathfinder takes. They've said that a number of times. I don't figure that will change soon. I think there will probably be tieflings and dragonborn in Pathfinder--but I don't think they'll be the kinds of guys milling through the town marketplace. They'll be more niche, probably.
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They sound more like a variation of the dracha from Arcana Evolved to me. And AE has racial levels, which 4e supposedly has. But while AE is presented as an "alternate PHB", it does have an implied setting connected with it, and the dracha are tied into the history of that world. From what I think I've heard of 4e, there is no implied setting, so the dragonborn are just "there."
I guess we'll have to see how Pathfinder handles dragons if one wants to really incorporate dragonborn into Golarion.
Grim's spot on. Humans will be the dominant race of Golarion from what I keep reading as well. Not to say that one couldn't play the race, but beware the lack of support if WotC decides not to make it OGL.
As a side note, I'm making my Dwarf dragonborn from the Dragon Magic book for the CotCT AP. It just feels super neato.
Creative Director
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We still haven't seen the 4th-edition rules, so there's no way for us to tell how well the dragonborn will fit into Golarion. If we do switch to 4th edition, we'll certainly need to find a role for them, but it won't be a BIG role. At least, not in the areas we've been focusing on so far. Just because a new race gets introduced in a new rulesset doesn't mean we need to retcon everything to make them fit in, after all. We've already got a very detailed layout for the main region of our campaign world as it is, and it's very humanocentric. Next up after them will be the races that have classically been in the game as PC races; elves, gnomes, halflings, dwarves, half elves, half orcs. Newer races like tieflings, eladrin, and dragonborn will have roles in the world as necessary, but compared to the other races I suspect those roles will be relatively minor.
Don't expect to see a dragonborn nation anytime soon in Golarion, is kind of what I'm saying.
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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My current thought on dragonborn, if we need them at all, is that they are remnants of specially bred creatures used to fuel the centuries-long war between Nex and Geb, two power-mad ancient wizard kings from the southeastern part of Garund, the continent across the Inner Sea from Cheliax and the location of Osirion, from "Entombed with the Pharaohs."
If we need to use them at all.
Ya know, all this talk of dragon (wo)men with breasts reminded me of an idea I had at one point about mermaids.
Now, merfolk, being fishes on the lower half I always reasoned don't have the same reproductive anatomy normal humans have. Given that, I pondered how fish reproduce. IIRC from my biology class, female fish lay eggs in large clumps and then male fish come to those clumps as spray their fertilizer on the eggs.
I was watching the little mermaid one day and I noticed the sea shells. I pondered why a mermaid would have mammery glands. Those types of glands would be for those races who have live births rather than egg-laying.
Then, I considered that possibly for mermaids (and in regard to this thread the dragonborn as well), the breasts are where the females dispense their eggs from during the laying process. A larger breast would imply that more eggs could be generated between layings and therefore a more fertile female.
Any thoughts.
I imagined a kind of intermediary hybrid creature akin to the egg-imbedder in Alien. This weird, fish-scaled crab-like creature comes to the shore or climbs aboard vessels or clings to drowning men, climbs over their faces, and inserts a proboscis into their throats.
Within 1d4 days, a mermaid/ merbutler pops out of their ribcages, killing the host. The young take on subtle traits of the host. If the host was human or humanoid, then . . . wallah! There will be breasts. If the host is a swan, the young will have feathers.
In the case of merfolk, they are likely not a natural race. I would guess they are magically alter in some manner. Yes they may breed true, but they still have a lot of the physical characteristics of the orignal race (most likely human).
Dragonborn, if a natural egg laying race, should not have breast. If they are a magically altered race, then they would be a throwback to the original race and serve not real purpose.
In the case of merfolk, they are likely not a natural race. I would guess they are magically alter in some manner. Yes they may breed true, but they still have a lot of the physical characteristics of the orignal race (most likely human).
Dragonborn, if a natural egg laying race, should not have breast. If they are a magically altered race, then they would be a throwback to the original race and serve not real purpose.
Although to fit in, maybe they wear padded falsies and a wig?????
Merfolk have a very specific and important role built into Golarion already. They're in there, they have breasts, and there's a reason.
I got paid to write that! This job rocks.
I hear ya! I should have become a Roleplaying Game Designer, so I could be paid to come up with stuff like that. ;-)
Now, merfolk, being fishes on the lower half I always reasoned don't have the same reproductive anatomy normal humans have.
Have you seen the Futurama Episode "The Deep South"?
Let me give you a short summary:
When the Planet Express crew ship gets pulled deep underwater by a giant fish, they explore the bottom of the sea a bit and discover the fabled sunken realm of:
Atlanta! (yes, some time between the years 2000 and 3000, Atlanta Sank)
They also discover the descendants of its former inhabitants, which have turned into mermaids ("Shouldn't that kind of thing take thousands of years?" "Normally, but all the caffeine from the Coca Cola Factory sure sped things up!")
Fry, of course, falls in love with a local girl and decides to stay behind to live with her. But when they retreat to her bedroom, he discovers the error of his ways when they end up in bed and run into difficulties:
"Uh, what?"
"Yeah, what is this?"
"I'm confused!"
"Yeah, I'm now supposed to lay my eggs and leave, and then you...."
"WAIT FOR ME, GUYS!"
There's a reason why they're called mermaids...
Note that there are mammals that lay eggs.
The famed Duck-Billed Platypus is one such mammal - it is also one of the few venomous mammals, and has the sense of electroreception (sensing prey by the electrical currents in the prey's muscles), which only it and the other monotremes have among mammals. I guess a dragon could be a lot like that weird amalgamation of animal parts: beak of a duck, tail of a beaver, feet of an otter - it's practically a D&D beast, or living mythical creature. A dragon is another creature that seems to be attributed with parts and traits of many creatures.
The other kind of mammal that lays eggs is the platypus's "sister", the Echidna (spiny anteaters).
But note that neither has teats, but release the milk through pores. Could be the same with dragons/dragonborn: they have the rounded shape we associate with breats, but no nipples on top.
Merfolk have a very specific and important role built into Golarion already. They're in there, they have breasts, and there's a reason.
I got paid to write that! This job rocks.
Jealous.
Wow....this thread is....just....huh.....
I LOVE these boards;)
We still haven't seen the 4th-edition rules, so there's no way for us to tell how well the dragonborn will fit into Golarion. If we do switch to 4th edition, we'll certainly need to find a role for them, but it won't be a BIG role.
I haven't the foggiest what the "rules" have to do with "fit into Golarion", but it sounds pretty wrong-headed to me. Same with the "need" to find a role for them.
Just because a new race gets introduced in a new rulesset doesn't mean we need to retcon everything to make them fit in, after all.
But that sounds right.
We still haven't seen the 4th-edition rules, so there's no way for us to tell how well the dragonborn will fit into Golarion. If we do switch to 4th edition, we'll certainly need to find a role for them, but it won't be a BIG role.I haven't the foggiest what the "rules" have to do with "fit into Golarion", but it sounds pretty wrong-headed to me. Same with the "need" to find a role for them.
Well, when you're writing for pay, you've got to cast a wide net. Not having a place for dragonborn in the Pathfinder series might be just the deciding factor for some new-to-gaming-with-4E GM who loves them, to decide not to use the Paizo products. To that end, they'd only be hurting themselves by not at least including some place for the dragonborn to fit.
-The Gneech
In the case of merfolk, they are likely not a natural race. I would guess they are magically alter in some manner. Yes they may breed true, but they still have a lot of the physical characteristics of the orignal race (most likely human).
I do not see why merefolk can not be a natural race. After all animal life in our real world oceans have been around and evolving long before land animals. I am actually a little surprised that our oceans did not give rise to an inteligent race before our land masses.
As for mammeries, I think it depends on the origin of your merefolk. In traditonal and modern fantasy merefolk tend to have one of three backgrounds.
1. Half human/half fish- These merefolk are usaully a result of something unatral having two distinct anatomies. The upper half of their bodies being a mammalian humanoid and the lower half being a fish. Think "Little Meremaid." Mammeries on this merefolk make sense due to their unatural origins.
2. Humaniod fish- These merefolk have humanoid features but their anatomy is icthyian. These merefolk lack the hair and skin tones of a human commonly found in example one. Istead they have crests and scales similar to a fish. One of my favorite visual representations of this type of merefolk is from Magic the Gathering's Merefolk of the Pearl Trident. Mammeries on these merefolk do not make much sense unless it can be explained as some type of adaptation. For example, a sexual adaptation like the feathers of a male peacock.
3. Humanoid marine mammal- These merefolk have the lower body of a marine mammal instead of that of a fish. This makes the merefolk wholly mammalian with the exception of breathing water instead of air. This gives the mammeries on females a little more credit. A good example of this type of merefolk is the Ocean Giant from the MM2.
My personal favorite type of merefolk is type two and it is my hope that this is the type of merefolk we see in Golarion.
3. Humanoid marine mammal- These merefolk have the lower body of a marine mammal instead of that of a fish. This makes the merefolk wholly mammalian with the exception of breathing water instead of air. This gives the mammeries on females a little more credit. A good example of this type of merefolk is the Ocean Giant from the MM2.
While a redesign of the merfolk as more fish-like would be interesting, I like the sea mammal version. Replacing the lower body with a sleeker dolphin-like body is interesting.
It would make for an interesting rivalry between merfolk (with dolphin allies) and sahuagin (who have shark allies). It would be sort of a play on the aquatic elf and sahuagin hatred.
Well, when you're writing for pay, you've got to cast a wide net. Not having a place for dragonborn in the Pathfinder series might be just the deciding factor for some new-to-gaming-with-4E GM who loves them, to decide not to use the Paizo products. To that end, they'd only be hurting themselves by not at least including some place for the dragonborn to fit.
No argument there, but I still don't know what the "rules" have to do with it. In fact, if what you say above is even remotely accurate, then the last thing Paizo will need to see before deciding is the rules.
If marketing is an issue, then put them in. If the concept fits into the world, put them in. If the concept doesn't fit, ignore them.
No argument there, but I still don't know what the "rules" have to do with it. In fact, if what you say above is even remotely accurate, then the last thing Paizo will need to see before deciding is the rules.
If marketing is an issue, then put them in. If the concept fits into the world, put them in. If the concept doesn't fit, ignore them.
I think the rules for Dragonborn James was referring to (and this is my conjecture, I'm sure he'll clarify for himself) are how they are specifically stat-ed out. Their special abilities, how they are balanced compared to other races- particularly since they might have age/race abilities?
Sort of saying, "Sure okay, I might buy the fluff to avoid not servicing all the OGL classes, but before I agree to it, show me the crunch behind it too."
I'm not the most qualified to suggest this (being a 3.5 noob) but I am told there are certain prestige classes in some sourcebooks that are not as well balanced as others? I think there is a thread on this board (in the general DnD section) "What class wouldn't you allow a player to run ever again?" Perhaps those are the type of rule concerns that James and Erik would like to vet before saying Dragonborn exist in Golarion. I'm sure we'll know soon enough when they chime in.
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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My sense is that we will probably find a place for them, so that if your players want to run them you've got something to fall back on. But if we think they are lame we probably will not emphasize them overmuch.
We'll see. I personally know almost nothing about them.