Whith all the attention given to Demon Lords and Arch Devils, I wonder just what then is the purpose of Evil gods? What is their place in the grand scheme of things of the Demon Lords and Arch Devils are the ones doing all the plotting? And what about the Celestials and Archons, the opponents of demons and devils, they seem to be unrepresented. Where are the Arch Angels?
Sorry I posted three times. THere was a delay in my submitting the post and it showing up. I thought it didn't go through.
Whith all the attention given to Demon Lords and Arch Devils, I wonder just what then is the purpose of Evil gods? What is their place in the grand scheme of things of the Demon Lords and Arch Devils are the ones doing all the plotting? And what about the Celestials and Archons, the opponents of demons and devils, they seem to be unrepresented. Where are the Arch Angels?
Actually the Arch Angels (Celestials, Archons, and Guardinals) appear in the Book of Exalted Deeds.
As commented elsewhere on this thread (in particular near the bottom of the 1st page), the evil pantheon, that is the demons (evil urges), devils (evil thoughts), rakshasa (spirits of corruption), Dark Gods (Hextor), and Great Old Ones (Cthulhu) and Outer Gods (Azathoth), is highly subjective, and based in part on the origins of the game. In a more Judeo-Christian setting you might end up with Demons and Devils being the bad guys - leaving out the "gods" entirely, while in a more Hindi-like religeous setting evil spirits (like in Oriental Adventures) rule the day. In swords and sorcery Dark Gods have some pominence, but could also be substituted for the alien Outer Gods (who also have a strong connection with fantasy). Most of the time I would suggest naming your poison and letting the other things slide for sake of mood and theme, though I can envision a game world where they can all partake (think of Neil Gaiman's Sandman - Gods, angels, devils, and stranger things).
-GGG
You could also refer yourself to Neil Gaiman's American Gods where all the deities of past and present eras co-habit on earth. Every God of every religion are mingled among the humans without the humans knowing it.
Also (anybody can correct me if I am wrong), many of the Arch-demon/devils are inspired by the evil gods of many extinct religions. I invite you to consult this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asmodai to get the full pedigree of Asmodeus.
An other funny fact I learned on Wikipedia is that Tiamat is the sea, personified as a goddess, who gives birth to the first generation of gods in the Babylonian and Sumerian mythology.
In more game terms, the book of Vile Darkness is a good reference on the limit to the powers of the Arch devil/demons. Another good source of info is the introduction of the Fiendish Codex 2 (the one about the devils) which tells the story of Asmodeus.
Personally, I interpret the different game references as follows: The Gods are stronger than the Arch-Devils/Demons, but the Arch-Devils/Demons could somehow aspire to Goodhood, which is by the way a good campaign plot.
Why are Archfiends more present in APs? Because they make better end-game villains. Think about it- "Hextor" isn't so much a person or entity as he is a mindset and an organization. Sure, Hextor is out there, but most parties would never dream of actually encountering a full-fledged god. An AP could be centered around something like the church of Hextor, but it you look at them, they typically involve the party eventually going to the "root of the problem," and destroying the ultimate source of the campaign's evil. I think that's what happened in Shackled City (haven't read it, but heard lots about it), and that's certainly what happened in Age of Worms (Kyuss was, by the way, an evil god and not an Archfiend), and if they kept this up and let you actually kill Baboon Boy in the Savage Tide, I would be thrilled.
It's far more concievable to many gamers to actually interact directly with an entity like a Demon Lord of Duke of Hell than it is to meet a god in person, and actually have an effect on that being. Plus, (in spite of Deities and Demigods), who really wants to say what an actual, full-blown god (not just a relatively weak demigod like Kyuss) can and can't do?
So that's why Archfiends are featured as the end game BBEG more often.
Also, the APs are far from bereft of the gods. Look at the Age of Worms, with the Ebon Triad. There's a pretty big level of inovlement from Hextor, Erythnul, and Vecna right there. Minions and servitors of the deities are common in campaigns, even if the end boss isn't one of them.
Finally, it's harder to put celestials into APs (although I think Celeste should be mentioned) because they would preempt the PCs. The player's characters are the heroes, they are the ones doing the smiting and winning the battle and saving the day. If celestials start popping up, why aren't they doing it? What's left for the "heroes?"
That's why celestials are rarer in general than fiends. There's less opportunity for them to be practically employed in campaigns without stealing the PC's thunder.
Creative Director
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Eladrins (Celeste included) have a large role in the last two Savage Tide adventures.
To address the thread's main point... if I were in charge of D&D, there wouldn't be much of a difference between an evil god and an arch devil or demon lord. As in: Not all evil gods are demon lords, but all demon lords are evil gods. That's not the way WotC chose to go with things (possibly because they wanted to avoid the stigma of having demons be on equal footing as gods), so that's that. As far as Dungeon is concerned, at least.
In Pathfnider, demon lords and arch devils are indeed evil gods. They can grant spells and everything.
Eladrins (Celeste included) have a large role in the last two Savage Tide adventures.
To address the thread's main point... if I were in charge of D&D, there wouldn't be much of a difference between an evil god and an arch devil or demon lord. As in: Not all evil gods are demon lords, but all demon lords are evil gods. That's not the way WotC chose to go with things (possibly because they wanted to avoid the stigma of having demons be on equal footing as gods), so that's that. As far as Dungeon is concerned, at least.
In Pathfnider, demon lords and arch devils are indeed evil gods. They can grant spells and everything.
Well, according to the Fiendish Codices, the Archfiends find other ways to grant spells, either through pacts with real gods or by having their followers actually siphon power from the plane, rather than the entity itself. It's an amazingly fine line (enough to seem like a cop out to me and wonder why they bother with all the charades- either let archfiends grant spells or don't).
I am glad to hear Pathfinder will be taking a different approach than WotC, especially that Archfiends are, indeed, evil deities! :)
In Pathfnider, demon lords and arch devils are indeed evil gods. They can grant spells and everything.
On a slightly divergent note, do you intend to add the far realms in Pathfinder or will you keep the Abyss and the Nine hells as the sumum of vileness in the multiverse.
In Pathfnider, demon lords and arch devils are indeed evil gods. They can grant spells and everything.On a slightly divergent note, do you intend to add the far realms in Pathfinder or will you keep the Abyss and the Nine hells as the sumum of vileness in the multiverse.
Neither. The Far Realm, the Infinite Layers of the Abyss, and the Nine Hells of Baator, along with every other part of the Great Wheel, are owned by WotC. Not Paizo. While "Hell" and "abyss" are generic terms and can be used, they will be nothing like what we know from "core" D&D, if they are used at all.
Eladrins (Celeste included) have a large role in the last two Savage Tide adventures.
To address the thread's main point... if I were in charge of D&D, there wouldn't be much of a difference between an evil god and an arch devil or demon lord. As in: Not all evil gods are demon lords, but all demon lords are evil gods. That's not the way WotC chose to go with things (possibly because they wanted to avoid the stigma of having demons be on equal footing as gods), so that's that. As far as Dungeon is concerned, at least.
In Pathfnider, demon lords and arch devils are indeed evil gods. They can grant spells and everything.
Thanks James, that was kind of the answer I was looking for. Although I would still be partial to making the Demon Lords the highest level servants of the Evil gods. After all the gods would be the incarnate version of their portfolio, they wouldn't be concerned with anything else. They would need messengers, and heralds to fulfill their desires on the material plane, and that means more than just clerics. Thank you everyone else too, Great Green God, Tiger and Saern, for your answers.
Neither. The Far Realm, the Infinite Layers of the Abyss, and the Nine Hells of Baator, along with every other part of the Great Wheel, are owned by WotC.
Are the Yugoloths also an intellectual propriety of WotC (cause, thanks to Rick Burlew, I know that the Illithids and Beholder are).
Neither. The Far Realm, the Infinite Layers of the Abyss, and the Nine Hells of Baator, along with every other part of the Great Wheel, are owned by WotC.Are the Yugoloths also an intellectual propriety of WotC (cause, thanks to Rick Burlew, I know that the Illithids and Beholder are).
Yes, as are the names 'Baatezu' and 'Tanar'ri'. Although in the latter two cases, most of these creatures are in the SRD, and so can be used. The same is not true of the Yugoloths.
There is definitely a problem if gods are more powerful than demon lords/archdevils yet still dwell on the same plane. Those that do include Lolth, Raxivort, Set, Iiamat and Hecate.
Lolth is the most common. I ruled that when one choses to pursue divinity they lose part of themselves that demons would identify with in favor of a form similar to their worshipers. While Lolth might be more powerful she does not command the legions of demons that Grazzt, Orcus or Demogorgon would. She has weak mortals in the eyes of other lords. Now while she pursues ways to increase her divinity, the others vie for the title of demon prince. You never hear of Lolth battling to increase her realms in the Abyss. Most likely she could if she wished it is doubtful she has the forces to keep any conquered lands. Mostly likely she slowly extended her influence to three layers over a very lengthy time.
The greater demons are drawn to the service of the more powerful demon lords because there is a kinship born of the Abyss. Raxivort is the demigod of xvarts. At one time he served Grazzt. To maintain freedom from Grazzt's control he became a demigod. If they would face off one on one Raxivort could possibly be victorious (not assured since he is one of the weakest demigods around), but Grazzt could field balors, and lesser demon lords to bring Raxivort to his knees and most likely imprison him. So Raxivort stays out of the Abyss and works on increasing his power through worshipers. This is why Demogorgon has never chosen to become a diety of the ixitxachitl. He would lose so much in the Abyss.
In the Nine Hells, Tiamat has a similar problem as Lolth. Set is too imbroiled with fighting the Egyptian pantheon to make additional enemies. Also what good would it do Set to destroy Asmodeus when the plane itself would allow another to assume his mantle and authority. It would be a wasted effort. Hecate is already an intermediate goddess and would not want to corrupt her form by taking control of a layer of the Nine Hells. Both gods desire the status quo that exists among the archdevils, both in their desire for law and structure as well as wishing to to pursue their interests elsewhere without worry.
That's a very intersting take on the gods, there. They just have bigger concerns (cosmic concerns, beyond a single plane or even a group of them), and just let the Archfiends do whatever they want because it isn't worth their time to try and change it, and really it's beneath them anyway. Also an interesting take on why certain Archfiends choose not to immediately become gods when they likely could. Not an exact relation, but reminiscent of a rule in Hell/serve in Heaven situation. I likes it!