So we just finished Library of Last Resort and the whole group is really starting to notice the differences between normal and high level play?
Now right off the bat I'll come out and say I've never DM'd this high a level before, nor have my players played this high before. There is a learning curve.
We've noticed:
Combat takes forever. Spells are especially tough at this level as they're not familiar to us and require a lot of reference. It not like magic missile or fireball which we all know by heart.
Melee guys are really being shown up by the casters.
A character can be knocked out earily and miss an entire two hour battle.
Monsters can often hit high AC's with impunity.
Spells with save or negate are all but worthless at this level as A). The PC's rarely need to roll higher than a 3 or 4 to succeed [plus we're in Eberron with Action Points] and B) Most of the big monsters can make the saves almost as well as the PC's, while the peons are easier to take out by more direct means.
The cleric spell list is killing me as DM. Find the path and discern location are plot killers. Wind walk makes is possible to get just about anywhere in a day.
Flight rules are too complex. We almost completely ignore these. To much 3D brain crunch.
In general it feels like 95% combat time and 5% plot because combat takes so long, the plot seems minimal in comparison.
Two of my players are diehard and want to see this through to the end but the other two are starting to show disinterest (note the casters want to see it through while the melee boys are getting tired.)
So for those who have done this before, what can be done to speed combat up and equal out the combat to plot/roleplaying ratio. Some of its me as DM controlling the game, but sometimes a combat encounter so blasts my brain that I loose track of the big picture.
Any help is appreciated.
Shade325
I'm getting to the point where your are (middle of LoLR), and the change is so subtle because the previous module had so little combat (not a bad thing). I must admit, it is quite challenging to run. I make mistakes every so often and miss important details (see post in Cakewalk thread), but my players realize that it can be hard to keep everything straight. I recommened keeping a seperate sheet of paper that monitors every PC and NPC's ongoing magical effects and their durations. Everytime your players cast a spell, write it down. This can be where it bogs down the most, but another is the amount of dice that get thrown on the table. If a player thinks he is going to cast a mass damage spell before his turn is ready, let him roll the dice out of turn but reserve the right to change his action before his turn actually comes. Same thing with attacks. It requires a bit of honesty between players and DMs, but greatly speeds things up. Also, have your PC's Armor Class written down, including combat modifiers such as dodge or what-not, so when you roll against them, you already know. Have your PCs dp the same for all of their melee attacks, modified by things like power attack, two weapon fighting, and other attack options. In short, have them stat out their characters like the monster stat blocks in Dungeon. This format greatly speeds up processing time when looking for a key stat vital to the combat.
One final note about spells: If your PC's are gung-ho about high-level magic, make them sit down and READ every spell 7th level and above that they plan to take. If you have to stop a combat to read a spell description, this takes more away from the action. Good luck, and have fun with the 32 dragons!!
Our group has never played at this high a level, either. We're midway through LoLR. We've also just added two new players, one of whom hasn't played since AD&D days. Here are a few things that help our group.
Spells are especially tough at this level as they're not familiar to us and require a lot of reference. It not like magic missile or fireball which we all know by heart.
The cleric spell list is killing me as DM. Find the path and discern location are plot killers. Wind walk makes is possible to get just about anywhere in a day.
Shade325
I've provided a couple of the spellcasters (including the new player) with a printout of their spells. It lists the spells by spell level, with the following as an example of how a couple of specific spells might appear:
Fireball - Long, 20' radius burst, 10d6 fire, Reflex half/Yes
Commune with Nature – CT 10 min, Personal, 1 mile/lvl outdoors or 100 ft./lvl in natural caverns; learn 3 facts from (the ground or terrain, plants, minerals, bodies of water, people, general animal population, presence of woodland creatures, presence of powerful unnatural creatures, or even the general state of the natural setting)
Flight rules are too complex. We almost completely ignore these. To much 3D brain crunch.
Shade325
If it works for you to ignore the Flight rules, there's really no harm in that. You can also use a "light" version where you just pay attention to what maneuverabilities are allowed to hover and to make rapid turns - but the truth is that it's easy enough to give Wingover and Hover feats to the big dragons (the most common poor fliers) so ignoring these rules isn't such a big problem.
In general it feels like 95% combat time and 5% plot because combat takes so long, the plot seems minimal in comparison.
Two of my players are diehard and want to see this through to the end but the other two are starting to show disinterest (note the casters want to see it through while the melee boys are getting tired.)
Shade325
Getting the spellcasters under control is the first priority. Once they have all their spell details in front of them, they won't slow things down nearly as much. Then, start looking at what is the next biggest thing slowing your group down. If its people taking too long to decide their actions, make a rule that people have to be ready with their action when their initiative comes up or else they're automatically delaying.
If you're having trouble deciding your NPCs' and monsters' actions, try making notes on each NPC/monster that highlights up to 5 rounds worth of actions, and make sure that any relevant abilities/spells/items are already figured into the stats for those actions. Highlight the "best" spells and special abilties of each bad guy so you only have to choose between two or three options when you glance at the page. Then make sure the relevant details for those abilities are already figured out. For example, if the demon will cast Unholy Blight in the first round, make notes on what it will do [Medium, 20' rad, 5d8 damage and sickened d4 rnds vs. Good (half dmg vs. Neutral), Will DC __ for half dmg and not sickened] in the margins.
Also, if the melee types are losing interest, they may have made sub-optimal choices, or they may not have enough equipment. If wealth levels are lower than recommended in the DMG, melee types actually suffer far more than spellcasters - give out Holy weapons, if they don't have them yet, and make sure they have magic items that let them close with enemies (boots of flying, etc.). If the melee types have feats they're never using, you may want to consider letting them adjust their characters somewhat.
Me and my players use D20 spellbook generator which is great for organising your spellbooks.
The print outs are excellent for important information when combat gets going.
http://d20spellbook.home.comcast.net/
The yahoo group has a listing for a beta 2.0 version that has enhanced features.
I agree with nearly everything you've posted on and my comments follow:
"Combat takes forever." Usually, yes - until the save or die spells are rolled out and the resulting save rolls are low. I don’t usually second-guess my players on their spells or abilities. If I dug, I could find something they are doing wrong, but now it’s a matter of game pacing: it simply isn’t worth it to slow the game.
“Melee guys are really being shown up by the casters.” Yep, until the fighters get these crazy feats and prestige classes that almost level the playing field (but not quite).
“A character can be knocked out early and miss an entire two hour battle.” – Sadly, yes. Pacing is so important when you have players on the sidelines.
“Monsters can often hit high AC's with impunity.” – Yeah, AC can be irrelevant to some monsters with multiple attacks and no penalties on them. Nice DMs might spread the pain a little. I won’t.
“Spells with save or negate are all but worthless at this level as A). The PC's rarely need to roll higher than a 3 or 4 to succeed and B) Most of the big monsters can make the saves almost as well as the PC's, while the peons are easier to take out by more direct means.” – One of my players feel this is true as well. I agree to an extent; if you want to make sure spells with saves work, you have to invest Feats and Ability scores to give you a chance.
“The cleric spell list is killing me as DM. Find the path and discern location are plot killers. Wind walk makes is possible to get just about anywhere in a day.” – I can tell you that later in the Age of Worms adventure, these spells are nerfed. They are going to have to use their tiny brains or (gasp!) a Gather Information check might be needed!
“Flight rules are too complex. We almost completely ignore these. To much 3D brain crunch.” – D&D 3.5 is not 3D compliant. In our campaign, we keep track of elevation. Everything that flies does so with perfect maneuverability, and we imagine a medium sized creature in a cube of 5 foot boxes. I wish I didn’t have to deal with this headache, but 20th level characters make it inevitable.
“In general it feels like 95% combat time and 5% plot because combat takes so long, the plot seems minimal in comparison.” – Agreed. I don’t think my players care.
“Two of my players are diehard and want to see this through to the end but the other two are starting to show disinterest (note the casters want to see it through while the melee boys are getting tired.)” – Our game is grinding to a halt; in its place we started Savage Tide with a different DM. One of the players confided that low level is much more fun than high level, especially where the deadliness of the game is concerned. I couldn’t agree more.
“So for those who have done this before, what can be done to speed combat up and equal out the combat to plot/roleplaying ratio. Some of its me as DM controlling the game, but sometimes a combat encounter so blasts my brain that I loose track of the big picture.” – Make sure a) players know what it is they are going to do BEFORE its their turn and b) Make sure you know what impact personal/protective spells have on the NPCs BEFORE you begin the game (make adjustments to the stat block on a scrap paper prior to the game). Finally, as an inadvertent plug for Dungeon, make sure you check out Monte Cook’s (author of DM Guide) Game Mastery articles found at the end of Dungeon Magazine. They offer point on advice for just these types of situations.
Like I've mentioned before, I wrapped up a 4-year campaign last March. We hit levels 28. We gamed for a year and a half past 20. It was incredible.
Our games were heavy combat. Our battle against the true Vlaakith and her various minions took 2.5 hours to play through.
At those levels, PCs could very easily use legend lore, scrying, miracle, and wish to locate foes, then use plane shift and/or teleport without error (or teleportation circle) to "scry and die" enemies. The cleric was invincible with his emanations, AC, and spells. The barbarian killed EVERYTHING that fell within his full-attack. Nothing ever lived after his full attack. Balors, dragons... Well, the xixecal whalloped him... The wizard could unleash awful hell all day long, and the gnome arcane trickster was a frighteningly powerful sniper on top of being a supreme stealth master.
As DM, you can choose to make combat light. My campaign became such that the PCs could take the fight to the enemy with confidence, and did so repeatedly. Having an invincible cleric with true ressurection on-hand added to that sense of confidence. As it was, by the time the PCs hit level 20, they had made many enemies, and were attacked often by various hunters and assassins, so life was never calm for long enough to role-play for long... That and the fact that I wanted to really squeeze as much out of those levels as I could now that we had finally made it.
And sure, combat takes forever. It's 3.5. What with grappling, turning, sundering, tripping, the differences between shaken, fatigued, frightened, and panicked, the myriad of synergy bonuses for skills... Pfft... Every action requires a page to be turned and consulted. I often find myself winging it just to save time.
I recommend having copious notes on-hand so you're not flipping through the books. Have monster stats and special attacks and defenses on notepads. Prepare beforehand and games won't drag as much.
I suggest letting your PCs use their powers. Don't freak out when your PCs mop up monsters, either. They've gone through hell to get to high levels, so let them live it up. Throw hordes of orcs at them, and enjoy the slaughter. Send hired killers to slay the notorious heroes. Have swordsmen and rival fighters challenge the the party warriors. Set up one-on-one spell duels with the spellcasters, and make them big, flashy, and make sure a town or city is watching in awe.
Celebrate the high levels. You earned them.
Initiative cards have gone a long way towards speeding up combat. I create them for the monsters by pasting the entries from the SRD or other sources into a Word file and printing it out on card stock, then cutting them up. The ability to say "Itchy, you're up; Scratchy, you're on deck" has done a lot to keep the players ready. Have the fighters roll out their 59 attacks ahead of time each round, assuming they've got the dice for it, particularly when it's obvious what they're going to do.
Always roll the monster's init ahead of time and put it on the card. Every little bit of confusion saved counts.
As mentioned before, there is no excuse for the casters not having their spells on some type of quick-reference sheet, whether it be cards or a bunch of paper.
I've been known to fudge a lot when one or more characters are taken out of the fight early. Get it over with!
One of the biggest steps I've taken is letting the players keep track of everything. Each of them have paper notepads, and they track their current HP, attack and damage bonuses, conditions, saves, etc. for each combat there instead of on their character sheet. This saves a world of time calculating these numbers each round. They spend their time between attacks adjusting these numbers as required, and are (usually) ready to go when I call them. This requires an amount of trust, so YMMV, but it ratchets up the suspense. I don't know how many HP they have when the hammer comes down, so they have to be really careful.
Melee guys are really being shown up by the casters.
Sadly, a bit of min-maxing is needed at higher levels for melee combatants to stay viable. (1) Shields are no good (AC = irrelevant, as you noted) compared to a 2-handed weapon and Power Attack. (2) Try taking a level in sorcerer, and combine true stike with a maxed out power atk as your first trick; or else take a level of psion or psychic warrior, and get the "psionic weapon" feats for a handy damage burst on your first attack. Losing a +1 BAB is a small price to pay at higher levels. (3) Your casters should be taking a LOT of low-level buff spells (bull's strength, displacement, etc.) to cast on your fighters. (4) On the last note, coordinated teamwork is a must. Your players should be spending a lot of time between combats discussing the last battle and how they could have done better.
All this being said, non-battle-mongers often do get bored at higher levels; I've had one campaign that stayed successful at high levels, vs. many that we played until mid levels, then started a new one.
I hear alot of people complain about the difficulty of high level play. My viewpoint is different from most.
High level play is difficult principally because most campaigns don't go that high and DMs and players are unfamilar with high level play.
It is like anything else that is new. It demands time for understanding and mastery... just like learning to drive a car for the first few times. At first, you go far too slow, you make mistakes and your cognative process are taxed with information overload as you try to grasp the motor skills and mental skills to drive a 2000lb metal monster down a street into traffic.
High level play is the same and if you are new at it, of course it is going to challenge your players and DM. Trouble is, most people try it once or twice and then complain that it is too difficult, it's less fun, etc etc then they retreat to the safety and familiarity of low level play.
It is strange that most people put up with the frustration of learning to drive a car yet they will not invest themselves into 'learning' high level play because they trying it once or twice then abandon it as too hard, or not their cup of tea.
I've been playing for 30+ years and majority of the campaigns I've been in have started at 1st level and have gone to 20+ level. Therefore my players and myself are very familiar with high level play. Strange as it might sound, high level play is no more difficult than low level play IF EVERYONE IS VERY FAMILIAR with it.
Our group has finished AOW. Combats averaged 20-25 real time minutes for even the high level combats. Everyone in our group is as familiar with Meteor Swarm or Foresight or Timestop as they are with Fireball or Invisibility or Dimension Door. Problem spells like Teleport or WindWalk or Scry or Contact Higher Plane or any other spell that most people deem has problems because they allow characters to sidestep parts of the adventure or find out information can be dealt with easily enough if the DM is well acquainted with high level play.
One only gets well acquainted by playing high level over and over...just like you only get to be a good driver by driving over and over.
My advice... don't sweat it. Like getting behind the wheel of a car for the first time, don't expect to be racing in the Indy 500 the next day. A new driver is frustrated, make plenty of mistakes, feels like his brain is on fire because of the complexity of getting his car from point A to point B without wrecking the car. But time and practice makes it easier and easier so that most people don't give driving a second thought. High level play is the same. Don't sweat it and take the time to learn it and become good at it. High level play is only daunting because most people don't want to work at it enough to become familiar with it and they give up after a adventure or two because it is too difficult or it is not fun (it is not fun the first few times because everyone is in 'learning mode')
Chess is a game in which I can teach the rules in 15 minutes to anyone. Yet, mastery of chess is a process that takes considerable time and practice. Ask any chess player worth his salt and he will tell you that the time and effort is worth it.
My opinion is likewise. High level play is worth the time and effort to invest in. Just allow your group the time and effort to discover this for yourselves.
We aren't quite as far along as many of you (just finished Spire) but we've started using some strategies to try to speed up combat. Here's a short list of things we're doing that you might consider:
1. Average damage/healing. It's very easy, in your notes, to prepare ahead of time what the average result is for a given spell. A 10d6 fireball does (3.5x10=)35 hit points of damage, 17 with a successful save. Cutting out the time spent standing over a pile of dice trying to add them up will go a long way towards making things go faster. For us, this is an option the player (or DM) can take before rolling the damage dice. Once you've rolled, you take what the dice give you.
2. Require that, as each player prepares for his turn, that he have the appropriate book opened to the page of the spell or feat or ability he's planning to use. Odds are, if you're not used to playing at this level, you're going to need a reference. Have it ready.
3. Explore options for managing initiative. Index cards are good -- I used them religiously for years, and I'm only now starting to experiment with using excel spreadsheets to manage initiative. I explored a lot of the available initiative trackers that you can download, and in the end I went back to excel, but there are some good ones out there that could really help you keep things moving quickly. Something to shoot for: Have an initiative display that your players can see, somehow. It needs to be easy for you to update as players complete their turns. And it should also be something that your players can see, so they can consistently be aware when their turn is coming up, so they can be prepared.
4. Once you've made sure that it's very easy for your players to know when their turn is coming up, you can consider putting those that are having trouble deciding on their next action into a delay so other players can act while they figure out what their big plan is.
Another thing to keep in mind . . . Combats may take longer because they last longer . . . what I mean is, it's easy to become accustomed to players who can grind through an encounter inside 3-4 rounds. And, at higher levels, battles can still go that quickly. But there are also fights that can last 10 rounds or more, as the players peel away the defenses of their enemies, as damage slowly accumulates, etc. Don't try to measure yourself against the number of battles you get through in a session -- that's not always fair.
As an example, the last two battles in Spires for my group took about 3.5 hours to run. But they were both long, drawn-out battles, and together the two fights totalled more than 25 rounds of combat -- which could easily have represented 7 or 8 less involved encounters.
Other thoughts . . . I haven't played at high levels as much as I have at low and mid levels, so my experience isn't that far off from yours. But in my experience, it is indeed true that spellcasters start to really outshine the other classes. I don't think that it has to be so. What happens at the higher levels, more than anything else, is that gaps between classes that have been growning wider and wider all along, really begin to stand out. At first level, the difference between a fighter's BAB and a mage's is only 1 -- and a few more for strength, etc. But by the time you reach 20th level, the difference can 20 or more points. A 20th level mage, with a dagger, doesn't have a prayer to actually hit a target that is a challenge for a 20th level fighter. Not that the 20th level mage would be doing anything so silly.
BUT . . . each of the classes, played well, can contribute plenty in the end game. (except, perhaps Bards. ;) ) A fighter or barbarian who really understands how to use power attack effectively can be a whirlwind of damage at that level -- and there are plenty of other feats to help that along. The one difference is that spellcasters are constantly getting new spells -- it doesn't take a lot of creativity or skill or imagination to find new, powerful ways to contribute. But the other classes may need to work harder to find ways to remain relevant.
-j
I've been playing RPGs off and on for 25 years using several different systems (started with the red box Basic D&D) and at different power levels. Any level of play has its difficulties and rewards; high level play is no different.
High level play can be a challenge, but the key is for EVERYONE to prepare for a session ahead of time, not just the DM. The players need to know, before they sit down at the gaming table, what their characters can and can't do with all of their abilities and magic items. This can be in the form of player notes, 3x5 cards, pure memory, or whatever works for them. Players need to plan their general battle tactics, both as individuals and as a group. Yes, the characters are powerful, but seat-of-the-pants adventuring tends to get characters killed against intelligent, well run foes that are the norm for high level play (how many monsters with a CR above 14-15 have a low Int?).
For the DM, as the level of the party increases, the amount of prep-work also increases. High CR foes usually have a large number of special abilities that need to be statted out in an easy-to-use format before play. Make sure you have you have copies of complete character sheets/stats for every party member, to include animal companions, cohorts, familiars, NPCs, and frequently summoned creatures; this prevents you from constantly asking the players for details and lets you be able to run someone if they get mind-controlled or adjust their stats if they suffer from a curse/spell/poison/etc. that is not immediately apparent. "Winging it" at high levels is nearly impossible unless you have a near encyclopedic knowledge of every class feature, feat, magic item, rule, special ability, and spell in use during the session, have a large pool of already prepared material that you can slot into the session with minimal notice, or run sesion in a story based or cinematographic way (remember the Amber diceless roleplaying game, anyone?).
High level play demands a correspondingly high level of commitment from the entire group, but the satisfaction can be just as high. Actually acting out the exploits of legendary heroes like those in movies and literature, occasionally having the fate of a kingdom or world dependent on your characters, is a real kick.
or run sesion
"run the session"
Damn typos. ;-P
I've got to say that this thread has been singularly helpful, and I read all the AoWAP threads every day.
I'm DMing this major campaign as my second 3.5 campaign and my first one with anything beyond level 5. We're mid-way through HoHR (with most of the party brilliantly deluded by a co-conspiring player).
What has helped me a lot is to use the online SRD from d20.org and make full printout sheets of each NPC, monster, treasure, etc and print them ahead of time, reading them over once or twice. I've been posting these as PDFs to theRPGenious.com Age of Worms AP resource page. Other beginner DMs should check it out, if they might find it helpful. I'll keep posting them right through our campaign.
I've got to say that combat even at level 7 is getting slow, and I've messed up initiative many times. Our D&D games are a joyous computer-free zone during play, so excel or other such options are off. Picking up on the index cards advice, how do you other DMs run it (on paper) so that everyone knows when their time in the queue is? Or if there is a larger group of monsters? Right now, I use a notebook as a campaign journal, and a scrap pad for initiative and effects as they come and go with each round of combat. Pretty primitive, but so far, all I can figure out.
thanks again for the great posts (here and elsewhere).
Picking up on the index cards advice, how do you other DMs run it (on paper) so that everyone knows when their time in the queue is? Or if there is a larger group of monsters? Right now, I use a notebook as a campaign journal, and a scrap pad for initiative and effects as they come and go with each round of combat. Pretty primitive, but so far, all I can figure out.
thanks again for the great posts (here and elsewhere).
We play on dry-erase battlemats, so usually the init gets written on the map itself in a far corner (got two placed together). That way everyone can see it..
Excellent suggestions, as I am new to DM'ing the high levels myself, and have recently begun tackling this issue.
Initiative cards, as mentioned previously, these are an excellent aid. Each character has one and each monster has one. I preroll the monster initiative and before each battle my players roll and I then poster putty them to my wall in initiative order for all to see.
Average damage, another excellent solution.
Smart die rolling. For example, our ranger uses a longsword (1-8 damage) with the holy effect, +2d6 damage. Don't roll out each of those individually. Just have him roll a 20 sider and reroll 1 - 2 's.
Preroll monster attacks. I keep all the monsters written down on a sheet of paper with their AC's, hp's, and other relative stats, and beside this I preroll all of their attack rolls. This saves a lot of time.
And of course, there's always the time limit. Buy a 30 second hourglass and don't be afraid to use it to limit players thinking time. It's a battle, you don't have time to think, and with all the work we DM's have to put into things, it's certainly not unreasonable to expect that our players know their spells and such. If time runs out, have them either do a standard melee attack or a simple spell.
Works for me.
We use dry-erase battlemaps.
To handle initiative I use a wooden three-fold DM screen. Because it is 1 inch thick I added an initiative band that could be read from both sides of the screen. I use board marker pins with different colours to represent player and monster init. So everyone could see when it is his turn.
On the DM side the init-band has a dry erase mat where I can note spell durations or effects.
Helps a lot...
As far as initiative cards go, I've found them to be invaluable. I try to keep one card to mark the beginning of each round and I put a tick mark there everytime it goes by. That way I can keep track of how many rounds have happened for spells with duration etc. I haven't done it yet, but I keep meaning to get a character portrait and glue it to that back of each of the PC cards. The idea is that I'll go through the cards so that the person at the bottom of the stack is on deck. This way the players can all see who's coming up next. I'm not intending to make pictures of the opponents so as not to give anything away. They'll have to rely on verbal descriptions for that, but the players will know if one of them is next.
I like the cards a lot because it makes it easy to adjust the initiative order which is always in a little bit of flux. Readied actions, delay tactics, etc. all change the order and I find it easy to flip the cards around into the proper order. I also have a standard format for the cards which has some basic info (AC, saves, HP, main form of attack for melee/ranged, and spot/search/listen skills). Each time the characters level up, I hand them their initiative card and the players update it for me.
Wampuscat43 gave me a lot of these ideas. Thanks Wampuscat!
I created a sheet with squares that represents rounds. I put a checkmark when the creature made it's actions for that round. So that way I know who's going next and I can tell them (they should know when it's their turn after the first round...it's pretty easy to memorize that)
Besides my players and my monsters names I have a box to write down initiative. I have a line to write down hps for the monsters and a large box at the bottom of the page to write down special bonuses...like prayer, haste, etc.
I usually make these in advance, so that init, hps and buffs are already calculated (separatly in case of a nice dispel magic). I even calculate different ratios of Power Attack in case the monster gets hit with a Ray of Enfeeblement. I encourage my players to do the same (like have the barbarian calculate to hit and damage for high, med, low and no Power Attack, a real time saver.)
And this is really important...Players should...no MUST KNOW the DCs/range/casting time/SR/CL of their spells/abilities. Nothing slows down a game like having the wizard cast a widen shout, then asking for the save DC and a caster check and range
only to have him look trhought his character sheet and PHB to calculate or find that info...
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Our group is close to finishing HoHR and I am running in to the same issues. This is the 1st campaign our group has played in over 10 years, so getting used to the new system has been a challenge as well. My biggest problem is that my players really don't know anything about their abilities, because not even ONE of them owns a player's handbook(at the very least they should all pitch in and buy one copy). I am stuck having to figure out all the player's feats, skills, etc.. and trying to run a great AP. I am going to take the advice from the posters above and start printing out spell lists, feats and all the other important info on to sheets that each player can have in front of them. Luckily, the players at least keep track of initiative by writing it on the battlemat. I do have to say thanks to Dungeon for making these amazing campaigns. The story has been holding everyone's interest(the dopple switch was great, my group wants to tattoo hidden symbols on each other now so they can always check for dopple infiltration) and they will have to start taking advantage of their abilities soon or the whole group will be destroyed by these high level mobs. By the end of the AP they might even add their own skill points up :) Please keep the tips coming, these are very useful to me as an old DM trying to keep up with the high level rules.
My group keeps track of initiative by using the battle grid and minis. All the PC's have 2 identical minis representing their character. One stays on the battlegrid as usual and tracks their position. The other tracks their initiative. When initiative is determined these second minis are placed in order on the battlegrid but right on the edge of the the grid. We have numbers on this edge so their actual initiative number is evident. After the first round I place a mini(s) for their opponents. The advantage of this system is that eveyone can see it and when initiative order is changed it's simple to move a mini to a new position. People delaying or readying actions are placed off the board but still in their relative position to the other minis. When their action occurs they are simply placed back on the board at the appropriate place in the initiative order.
My group keeps track of initiative by using the battle grid and minis. All the PC's have 2 identical minis representing their character. One stays on the battlegrid as usual and tracks their position. The other tracks their initiative. When initiative is determined these second minis are placed in order on the battlegrid but right on the edge of the the grid. We have numbers on this edge so their actual initiative number is evident. After the first round I place a mini(s) for their opponents. The advantage of this system is that eveyone can see it and when initiative order is changed it's simple to move a mini to a new position. People delaying or readying actions are placed off the board but still in their relative position to the other minis. When their action occurs they are simply placed back on the board at the appropriate place in the initiative order.
Our group has experimented a bit with a system very much like this -- but instead of an identical mini, we used a small (maybe 1" wide) bit of card with the name of the character on it. We have some plastic stands from old games, but you can also use binder clips (the black ones) pretty easily.
The other DM in our group (we take turns; I'm DMing the odd number adventures) used that system for a long time, and it worked pretty well for him. I was always devoted to my index cards. Now we're both using computers with two monitors and excel spreadsheets to track initiative, and comparing notes on helpful macros and conditional formatting, etc. The conditional formatting is great -- if you use the spreadsheet to also track HP for your creatures, you can create formulas that change the formatting of the creature's name field if the creature is at half HP, quarter HP, or dead. And let me tell you, that little bit of information alone keeps the PC's eyes glued to the screen, waiting the see the results of their attacks . . .
-j
Now that I use my laptop, I don't know how I could DM without it! Two programs have proved particularly useful. The first is a initiative tracker called Turnwatcher. It's a very simple program- doesn't do much more than track initiative and HP, but it is elegantly designed and easy to use. The second, and perhaps even more useful tool is a searchable SRD. No flipping through books for me, thanks!
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In addition to some of the other excellent ideas mentioned above, I recommend assigning jobs to different players, to get them to help you DM.
I use other players I can trust to help with certain aspects of running the game. (I have about 15 people in my current game and have done a fair amout of high level-gaming with them, which can really get chaotic if you're not well organized. Designating jobs to players also keeps them paying attention to whats going on at the table, as with all those people it can be diffficult to keep them focused on the game and prevent them from drifting off into side conversations.
Some of the "jobs" I have include an initiative caller, who writes down initiative and calls it off, during combat. I pretty much just have to call "next", and he tells me whose turn it is.
Another job I assign is the computer, who basically does all the math for the dice rolling and stuff. He counts quick.
Next I have a rules lawyer, who I trust, and since he's going to rules lawyer anyway, we refer to him for quick adjudications.
Other people I make consultants, or people I simply ask to keep a page marked in their PHB to a specific aspect of the rules, so we can consult them for a ruling.
Finally, don't be afraid to tell any player on the table that you'll come back to them if they need to double check something about an action,add up a hellacious amount of damage, or whatever. A lot of the the time you can still have them act in turn without, giving results in order. For example, when the wizard rolls 9d6 to determine damages, say to her "ok roll your damage, and I'll get back to you. Have the fighter take a chop or two and then ask the wizard what kind of damage they did. It helps speed things up a little.
My first real experience with high-level play was with the Shackled City Adventure Path. I found that the game did slow down a bit, but not too much, and I learned a huge amount about DMing from the experience.
The #1 rule for DMing at high levels is that the DM and players _must_ trust one another. In particular, the DM must trust the players to run their characters correctly, and must be able to trust them to apply the effects of all conditions, and especially the negative conditions, that affect them. If the DM can't trust his players to do that, he just cannot run effectively at high level - there's just too much else to worry about.
The #2 rule of DMing at high levels is that you absolutely must be prepared. Players should have all manner of cheat-sheets available, pre-calculating all their Power Attack and Combat Expertise modifiers, Wizards need spell books easily to hand, and the DM should have all monsters on seperate sheets, onto which he can directly write modifiers, notes and the like. Don't try to run creatures directly from the Monster Manuals or the magazine, as this will slow you down. (In particular, players should have pre-worked out stats for their characters when using their favourite buffs, with Divine Power and Righteous Might being particularly bad offenders, and for NPCs you should have the same... and all the 'partial' combinations for when your Wizard hits them with a Dispel Magic. Aside - I hate that spell!)
Now, there are various tricks you can use to speed up combat. I have a fairly small (2 ft x 3 ft) whiteboard, onto which I write in two types of pen. I have some lovely 'chalk pens' I got from a school supplier, which are permanent until washed away. I also have dry erase markers. I use the former to generate a list of each PC, with ACs (normal/flat-footed/touch), DR, Save adjustments for spellcasters, Listen and Spot numbers, and max total Hit Points. I then use the dry erase markers to note any changes, to record initiative, and make any other notes I need on the fly in combat. I also use the board as a flat surface on which to roll dice, but that doesn't save any real time in combat.
Initiative cards, or their equivalent, are a godsend in high-level combat. Do yourself a favour, and get some.
When a player's turn rolls around, he has five seconds to declare his first action for the round, or he loses it. If unsure, he should declare "Delay!", and then he can act when he's ready. Second and subsequent actions can take longer, but there is no excuse for not being ready.
Players are freely allowed to help one another with rules queries. They are also allowed to offer each other advice on tactics, spells to use, or whatever. But, they are _not_ allowed to offer advice to anyone else while on their own turn, and neither are they allowed to offer advice to the player whose turn it currently is. That's a matter of focus - if you're busy, don't distract yourself, and if someone else is busy, don't distract them.
If a player is casting a spell on his turn, I expect him to have looked it up in the PHB, Spell Compendium, or other source in advance, and to hand me the book, turned to the correct page, as he declares this action. He has a whole round to prepare; he should use it. Spell cards work just as well. Likewise, a player who is going to grapple, use a bull rush, or do something else that's 'unusual' should have it looked up. I may not need the rules, but if I do, I shouldn't have to take time out to look them up.
Incidentally, you want at least one PHB per two players, and at least one Spell Compendium (and other spellbooks used) per two spellcasters. And the DM should have a complete set of all books set aside for his personal use, that are _not_ available for players to use. If I need to look up a spell/rule/whatever, I need to be able to put my hands on the book immediately, not lose five minutes finding out which player currently has it.
If a situation comes up in combat that I'm not sure about, unless I know exactly where the correct rule is, I just make a ruling and move on. I won't spend any time looking these things up unless I absolutely have to, and I won't second-guess myself. We may well go back and look it up later, but even then we won't redo the situation. (This goes back to trust - my players trust me to make the correct ruling most of the time, and they trust me not to be out to screw them.)
If mistakes are made, we don't go back and change things. So, if Tordek dies because Billy forgot he had Magic Vestment running, that's too bad. If the BBEG was nerfed because I forgot he was immune to fire, well, I'll get them next time. It happens - don't sweat the small stuff.
As regards the disparity between fighters are spellcasters, I offer two suggestions. Firstly, check the wealth levels of the party, and check in particular that you've allowed the fighter-types relatively free access to magic items they actually want. This goes a long way towards closing the gap. Secondly, allow access to the feats from the Player's Handbook II if you haven't already. These give the high-level fighter-types some much needed boosts.
With high-level spells, you really need to use the saves-or-die as written. I'm not a fan of this type of effect, but nerfing them totally changes the tenor of high-level games. In particular, you need to have no fear of killing off a PC. That will make those saves much more meaningful, since you automatically fail on a natural 1. Suddenly, even having virtually no chance of failure becomes exciting.
As for the other high-level spell effects, handling them comes with experience. Bear in mind that scry-buff-teleport has several disadvantages. The first is that you can't scry an area, only an individual IIRC, which means they get a save to prevent the scry. Secondly, most high level opponents will be aware that they are being scried, so will prepare themselves before your teleport. (DC 20 Int check to spot the scrying sensor.)
Find the Path can more accurately be titled Ruin the Adventure, but bear in mind that it only shows the most direct route to the target. High-level BBEGs are aware of this, so make the direct route one of the most dangerous when building their lair - one of the last adventures in the SCAP did exactly that.
I hope some of this is helpful. High-level play is a distinct challenge, and you might decide it's not for you. There's no shame in saying that that's the case and deciding to do something else. On the other hand, I thoroughly enjoyed the experience and the challenge, and I learned a whole lot from going through it. I hope you persevere.
Good Luck!
The #1 rule for DMing at high levels is that the DM and players _must_ trust one another.
Amen, brother. I've been DMing forever, and that rule holds up even with smaller (2-person) groups. In fact, I'm hesitant to play with anyone who is not a close personal friend. Everyone, post this on your forehead.