I was wondering what people thought about changing the death attack for assassins into a reflex save instead of a fortitude save. I always wanted to alter it just because a fort save didn't quite sound right. I always envisioned a survived assassination attempt as a last second avoidance of a mortal wound. Not because you character was too tough of a badass to die just because of some knife in his kidney.
High fortitude saves are often more common than high reflex saves so this may make the assassins ability more reliable. I don't neccesarily see a problem with the power boost though.
A death attack takes three rounds to set up, doesn't work on creatures immune to criticals, must be delivered by a successful sneak attack so it requires a successful attack roll and classes like the rogue and barbarian are largely immune due to uncanny dodge. A sussesful sneak attack is already hard to accomplish and it is the core ability of the entire assassin class.
A full spellcaster however can gain access to multiple death causing spells. Some killing multiple creatures, most killing at a far greater range than the 30ft max of a sneak attack, requiring no attack roll or stealth and taking no more time than one standard action. These spells are meerely small parts of the classes total abilities and due to spell preperation can be exchanged temporarily for more useful abilities should the need arise.
My point that most instant death effects are not half as difficult to pull off as that of an Assassin (a class devoted to administering blows of instant death). And so I propose their are no game balancing issues that arise by forcing a reflex save (what I believe to be a more realistic representation of an assassinaton) instead of the standard fortitude save.
But as always, before I change something in the rules. I defer to the wisdom of the Paizoians. So I like the idea but is their anything that could come back to bite me?
classes like the rogue and barbarian are largely immune due to uncanny dodge.
Yep; and the rogue gets the good Reflex saves as well, so in essence you've eliminated a disadvantage instead of trading one (which is, I take it, exactly what you intended to do). But I'm uneasy about the high-level fighter that dies instantly; his high hp represent his ability to anticipate danger, twist aside at the last second, etc. That same guy should (realistically speaking) have a good chance to avoid a death attack, but mechanically you can't really tie it to hp, so we use the Fort save instead. A wizard isn't experienced in combat, and succombs easily... and also has a low Fort save, so the same mechanic works.
So, although I agree the ability is underpowered, there must be a better way to improve it. And don't get me started about why distant projectile weapons don't qualify, whereas in actuality it's a LOT easier to wipe out somebody with a sniper's rifle than it is with a knife.
classes like the rogue and barbarian are largely immune due to uncanny dodge.Yep; and the rogue gets the good Reflex saves as well, so in essence you've eliminated a disadvantage instead of trading one (which is, I take it, exactly what you intended to do). But I'm uneasy about the high-level fighter that dies instantly; his high hp represent his ability to anticipate danger, twist aside at the last second, etc. That same guy should (realistically speaking) have a good chance to avoid a death attack, but mechanically you can't really tie it to hp, so we use the Fort save instead. A wizard isn't experienced in combat, and succombs easily... and also has a low Fort save, so the same mechanic works.
So, although I agree the ability is underpowered, there must be a better way to improve it. And don't get me started about why distant projectile weapons don't qualify, whereas in actuality it's a LOT easier to wipe out somebody with a sniper's rifle than it is with a knife.
Good point. I agree the fighter is by nature hard to kill. Perhaps Stealthy types should focus on listen and spot and being hard to sneak up on. Rouges were already harder to kill because of uncanny dodge. And other stealth types like monks and rangers already have good fort saves... Thanks, The fact that a fort save did not sound right made me focus on the wrong thing. The quick and mobile classes are still as hard to kill if not harder to kill than the tanks. The fort save still bugs me a little but I feel better about death attacks as a whole now.
Thanks a lot Erik this is exactly what I was hoping for!
The idea of making it reflex rather than fort is not a bad idea, in terms of realism but it could mess up the game balance aspects. The reason reflex is the logical save is (and this is just my two cents) the death attack/sneak attack/ etc. is striking at a particulalrly vulnerable area: the carotid artery or another major blood vessel or at the heart or another organ. Reflex saves indicate you shift slightly to make the blade hit a non-vital target instead. If it hit the organ you'd bleed out and a high fortitude could allow you to bleed for a bit longer with less ill effect but you wouldn't be able to stop the bleeding before death occurred. Actually, this made me think of a discussion about instant kills and here's a possible mechanic.
Instant kill
Roll as normal; if you get a threat, roll for critical; if you hit roll d20 or d%; natural 20 on d20 or 96-00 on d% = instant kill
With this the vorpal quality takes the 5% instant kill chance to 100%. Tinker with the numbers if you want just throwing it out as a possibility.
My initial impression is that currently, most save or die attacks utilize will or fort saves, while damage type effects use reflex. There are exceptions, of course.
A save or die reflex save (even a modest one) would cause virtually every character in my (high-level) game to die. My PCs don't care about taking damage, and by extension do not care about reflex saves. I guess the thought process is damage can be healed, dropping dead on the spot is a bit more problematic.
Thanks a lot Erik this is exactly what I was hoping for!
It was a great pleasure... and indeed, 'twould be churlish to refuse to respond to someone with "Sexi" in their name! But seriously, everyone on these boards seems MUCH nicer than average for people in general; it made my day if I returned the favor with something of use.
The only remedy I can see for the general lameness of death attack is to allow a "ranged sneak/death attack" feat, and allow Ability Focus (Death Attack) as a non-epic feat. That way, your DC approaches the realm of something not so easily ignored/shrugged off. Alternatively, I once ran a campaign where a full-round action (like setting up a death attack, but faster and more demanding) with a projectile weapon gave a Concentration check vs. the target's AC. The amount you exceeded was a bonus on the attack roll and d6's of "sneak attack" type damage... it got fairly brutal. But hell, legend has it that Richard the Lion-Heart was unbeatable in melee, but laid low by an arrow fired by a teenaged longbowman.
Thanks a lot Erik this is exactly what I was hoping for!It was a great pleasure... and indeed, 'twould be churlish to refuse to respond to someone with "Sexi" in their name! But seriously, everyone on these boards seems MUCH nicer than average for people in general; it made my day if I returned the favor with something of use.
Just to let you know, the person you replied to is, in real life, a short hairy man who in no way qualifies as "sexy." Atheistic pyromaniac? Most certainly. Sexy? Don't make me laugh/vomit.
Hi, Micah! :P
wow, youre an evil, evil man, saern... outing your buddy like that. hairy AND short?
dissenting opinion: you may have saved erik alot of embarrassment...
tog
Would a maniacle cackle be too much at this point?
Just to let you know, the person you replied to is, in real life, a short hairy man who in no way qualifies as "sexy."
I gathered that from the "personal info" thread (which made all that abundantly obvious a few days ago!) :) I figured anybody with the moxy to pick a screen name like that can handle getting their chops busted a bit (in the nicest possible way, of course). Anyway, you two are the coolest.
Though I realize it's slightly off-topic, I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who dislikes the fact that the Assassin's death attack cannot, as written, be used with a ranged weapon. I'm of the opinion that, in conjunction with requiring 3 rounds of study during which one's target does not perceive you as a threat, meeting all the requirements for a Sneak Attack is quite stringent enough.
... and allow Ability Focus (Death Attack) as a non-epic feat. That way, your DC approaches the realm of something not so easily ignored/shrugged off.
If you check your MM or the SRD, you'll find that the feat "Ability Focus," though listed as a Monster Feat, can be taken by any character or creature who possesses a Special Attack. The Assassin's "Death Attack" falls into that category. Any Assassin who wants to be taken seriously should absolutely pick that one up.
If you check your MM or the SRD, you'll find that the feat "Ability Focus," though listed as a Monster Feat, can be taken by any character or creature who possesses a Special Attack. The Assassin's "Death Attack" falls into that category.
True, but the existence of Improved Death Attack (same thing as Ability Focus, but applied only to death attack) as an epic-only feat leads one to wonder.
Well here is my 2 copper:
I am a 2nd Ed kinda guy so i tend to use it alot; The Assissan out of that book in my House rules system had the following system : Must have Proficancy of the anotmy of the target (Ea: Humanoid ) and must be undetected once the Death attack is called for the system is as follows: base 50% + 5% per level of the assassin -5% per HD or level of target ( later we aded a 5% bonus for more specialized proficancys ) anyway as you can see it was kinda hardcore, and as to the range aspect our house rule is same as Sneak attack ( ranged if with in 30ft ) also we used a Crrit table for every time a arrow hit a target it was kinda mean but Arrows tend to do alot more damage on a hit then a sword in those days ( as far as i have read anyway ) so yeah our combat is insanely lethal as for 3rd Ed i buffed the save DC on death attack quite a bit Via Feats and adding more to the base ( i cant remember the system right now ) but i wwill try and find some notes
True, but the existence of Improved Death Attack (same thing as Ability Focus, but applied only to death attack) as an epic-only feat leads one to wonder.
I see your point. However, considering that they're both unnamed bonuses granted by different sources, the two would stack together. Also keep in mind that since at epic levels an assassin's Death Attack DC only goes up every two levels, taking the Improved Death Attack feat is like gaining four levels worth of epic advancement as an assassin for the purpose of that ability. The fact that you can take it multiple times and it stacks with itself is part of what makes the feat so good. Very few pre-epic feats (aside from the ever-crappy Toughness) can be taken multiple times and stack together.
Isn't Ability Focus "new" to 3.5? Could it be that the 3.0 Epic rules simply thought that such a feat should be considered Epic, only to have the line of thinking change with 3.5 but that small point be missed by the game designers?
(1) However, considering that they're both unnamed bonuses granted by different sources, the two would stack together. (2) Also keep in mind that since at epic levels an assassin's Death Attack DC only goes up every two levels, taking the Improved Death Attack feat is like gaining four levels worth of epic advancement as an assassin for the purpose of that ability. (3) The fact that you can take it multiple times and it stacks with itself is part of what makes the feat so good. Very few pre-epic feats (aside from the ever-crappy Toughness) can be taken multiple times and stack together.
VerdicCold: You actually make three very nice points, with the net result of a great deal of clarification of the issue, I think. Thank you! Saern--you might be right; I've gotten so SRD-dependent I can't hardly lift a book cover anymore. All: as far as the "ever-crappy" toughness, it seems like "Improved Toughness" has superceded it completely in the newer (MMIII+) WotC stuff.