Animate Dead, Lesser and number controlled


Rules Questions


My player and I are having a bit of an argument about this spell and its wording. It says it "creates" one undead pet for the caster, but otherwise functions as Animate Dead. Our disagreement lies in whether or not this only allows control of one monster up to the HD limit, or can you cast it multiple times to get multiple pets up to the HD limit.

Fundamentally, I believe the spirit of the wording only allows the creation/control of one undead. Otherwise it is just about as formidable as the better spell but requiring more setup and spell slots and available at a lower level should you want a hoard vs single powerhouse (otherwise it already is!).

I do see his point though, and I do agree the literal wording does indeed support it; in Animate Dead, it defines creation and then defines control while lesser does refer to just the creation part (everything else functioning as Animate Dead aka control). though if the Targets section of the spell description is taken broadly across all castings, then the One Corpse vs One or More of its big brother would swing the rules lawyering back in the other direction.

I am just worried that our little divine caster (4th level Oracle in an APL3 group) is going to OP the rest of the group with this amazing spell.


I think your player has it right. He can create up to 16 HD with this spell.

Ultimately it will depend on the resources your player has and what he faces. A single NPC Cleric of equal CR will probably destroy his undead with one or two channels.

Out of curiosity, why is he level 4 in an APL3 group? That may be more telling at lower levels than any single spell.

- Gauss

Scarab Sages

I too think your player has it right.

That being said, talk to him and let him know what your concerns are. Ask that he restrain himself from getting too carried away so that everyone there can have fun, not just him.


I agree with the player as well. The spell just means it takes a lot longer to make an undead army. The only problem with having a good number of minions is that it takes time away from others in the group.

There's actually a very frustrating dynamic at work here. More minions/summons means you protect people better. Minions/Summons (MS) being hurt is a lot better than PCs getting hurt. MS also attack, which does some damage. They take up space, which provides some control. Utility-wise they are awesome.

But they take time away from the other players, they can dominate the battle. And so they can decrease the enjoyment of the players. It's one reason why I avoid making lots of summons since I played a Druid back in 3.5 many years ago.

Better to stick to maybe one big minion and perhaps have some others for non-combat utility. Not as effective, but everyone will be happier for it.

Dark Archive

It does seem to be intended to allow multiple undead, just at a much slower rate of acquisition than just casting animate dead and getting them all at once.

Limiting it to one undead would be a fine house rule, so long as you and the oracle agree that it's not a total rip-off (and the oracle is allowed to swap out the spell free of charge, if it's changed so drastically that he no longer wants to 'burn' one of his spells known on it).

Alternately, if keeping it at full power, instead of asking to make only one big minion, instead of a bunch of fodder that will take time away from everyone else, consider assigning one 'fodder' to each player to run on it's turn, so that everyone gets to run a flunky, and it doesn't feel quite so much like 'I go, Tom's oracle goes, Tom's zombie minion goes, Tom's other zombie minion goes, Tom's other other zombie minion goes...'

That all being said, depending on the group, they might not mind the oracle and his zombie back-up singers taking a bunch of actions each round, and relish the idea that expendable meat-sacks are taking hits for them and springing traps for them and carrying their heavy backpacks and setting up camp every night.

Always check if folks even care before changing stuff! :)


The rules lawyer in me was agreeing with him but part of me just doesn't like a spell that gives the oomph of a higher level spell. At its worst, it is an Animate Dead that requires a little more setup (horde) and at its best it -is- an animate dead (single) available at lower level.

One thing I think I would consider, is having Lesser control a portion (maybe like half) of Animate Dead (so say 2HD per level) and still include those HD controlled when dealing with the better spell.

Gauss wrote:


Out of curiosity, why is he level 4 in an APL3 group? That may be more telling at lower levels than any single spell.

- Gauss

He is the most consistent to show up and is the most likely to RP. I award some XP to RPing to promote it within the group. Anyway, when we last awarded XP he had just over enough to put him at level 4.


Ahhhh, I try to avoid that for this very reason (disparate levels). I would give other bonuses instead. Perhaps something like a fraction of a hero point.

- Gauss


Personally I do not find the minor difference in levels important; the rest of the group will quickly catch up and in the meantime he will feel that levelling is making a difference. Taking a group that is used to playing 1E AD&D is having a difficult time adjusting to having so many rules. Whenever I bring up Hero Points it is usually lost in their minds and in some groans. They are learning and getting better and faster but it will take time to get some things implemented. My group reacts most favorably to the XP rewards so that is why I have stayed with it.

My question about the spell's functionality was answered but now I am just suffering with some turmoil with regards to the spell's balance. This Lesser spell just looks like a 3rd level spell disguised as a 2nd level. I would love any feedback, it may be that I am just worrying about nothing.


Animate dead lesser isn't nearly as powerful as the full spell. It's limited to creating a single medium or small sized zombie or skeleton, with no variants. So, no large or greater creatures, and no bloody or burning etc... skeletons.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Animate Dead, Lesser and number controlled All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.